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Author Topic: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)  (Read 12367 times)

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Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2018, 09:56:20 PM »
Leon - if possible lay out your track plan on the board before getting any framing done.
That way, you will know where the points fall and you can mark where you want the cross framing to be, allowing for underboard point motors. The alternative is the carpenter puts the bracing where he thinks best and then you have to juggle the track plan to ensure there is no bracing where you want a point motor to go. I know which I prefer.

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2018, 12:24:02 AM »
Leon - if possible lay out your track plan on the board before getting any framing done.
That way, you will know where the points fall and you can mark where you want the cross framing to be, allowing for underboard point motors. The alternative is the carpenter puts the bracing where he thinks best and then you have to juggle the track plan to ensure there is no bracing where you want a point motor to go. I know which I prefer.

Mick, thanks very much for the suggestion. I have a pretty good idea where I'll be drilling from the AnyRail plan which is on a one foot grid, and there doesn't appear to be a problem with the present configuration. I've instructed the carpenter to place a brace every two feet. Things DO change, though!  Remember, there won't be any underboard point motors (all Kato points). Another benefit of the insulation board is that if I have to, I can cut a shallow trench for running the wire. When the frame is delivered, I'll draw an outline on the foamboard before turning it over and gluing it to the frame.  If you see a fallicy in any of this please DO let me know.

Leon
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 12:26:48 AM by Leon »

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2018, 06:20:33 PM »
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.

Chris, I've finally found time to re-adjust the left bottom corner of my layout for the Peco turntable. It can work, but the plan change reverts to the tight curve which was the subject of several comments here when I first posted my layout plan. I'm staying with the layout WITHOUT the turntable in the meantime, but will take a look at it in the second phase of my track-laying. I'll not do the sidings and associated buildings until the third stage of construction (see previous post), so there's time to add the turntable - but not that much time before I have to make a decision about the curve. The turntable isn't possible, on my layout, without the tight curve. The fact is the curve doesn't really matter, except for visual aesthetics for I'll only be running a tank and autocoach around the curve. Even that isn't necessary as I can limit the autocoach service to Biss River or send it along the east/west line. Marsh View Halt and Biss River Station are an integral part of the layout for fidelity to Westbury, but it's impossible to show the importance of that line with my limited space.

Thanks again for your suggestion. I still question WHEN the turntable at Westwood was constructed (maybe it wasn't there before nationalization). Southern District locos DID turn there, but I still have to be convinced that Southern Railways locos turned there (it seems more logical, to me, they would have turned at Salisbury). There can be no doubt that Westbury became much more important after nationaization. I've just read the Southern Railways Handbook and I'm still clueless about which company owned the Westbury to Salisbury track. If it WAS owned by Southern, then my logic is erroneous. Can anyone provide a definitive answer about ownership of the track?

Leon

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2018, 06:57:59 PM »
The Westbury to Salisbury line was GWR. That railway had it's own terminus station in Salisbury, closed in 1932.

See:

Railmap online http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_railway_station

The GWR Grange class were very much a mixed traffic loco as were the Halls and Manors. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_Western_Railway

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index-st.htm


Some background reading for you Leon

cheers Norman

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2018, 07:12:08 PM »
According to Wikipedia the present station was built in 1899. I have found a web page that implies the shed with turntable was opened soon after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station

https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf

Norman

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2018, 10:21:19 PM »
According to Wikipedia the present station was built in 1899. I have found a web page that implies the shed with turntable was opened soon after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station

https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf

Norman


Norman,

Thanks for your input and the links you shared. I've followed them all. The picture that accompanied the article referred to in the Wiltshire Times was shot after regionalization. There is no doubt there was a turntable at that time, and I have a book that includes the engine shed picture and one of the turntable (and others, photographed in the 60s, I believe). Your other internet references show conclusively that GWR operated the line to Salisbury from broad gauge days - stengthening my arguement that during GWR days there was probably no need for a turntable at Westbury.

if you're interested, take a look at the OS Map at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2625&lon=-2.2009&layers=10&b=1. That map was drawn after 1942, but most likely before regionalization. It shows are far more modest station, though there is a fairly large engine shed (but with only two tracks leading in) and what was probably the coal staging building. No sign of a turntable.

Leon

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2018, 11:04:43 PM »
While I agree the picture in the link is post nationalisation, if you read the text carefully it says that the engine shed was completed shortly after the station rebuild (in 1899) and included a 65' turntable.

Your link to the NLS map site doesn't work for me.

On the NLS web site there is a map from 1924 that clearly shows the new station and a turntable: https://maps.nls.uk/view/106029997

Norman

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2018, 01:16:54 AM »
While I agree the picture in the link is post nationalisation, if you read the text carefully it says that the engine shed was completed shortly after the station rebuild (in 1899) and included a 65' turntable.

Your link to the NLS map site doesn't work for me.

On the NLS web site there is a map from 1924 that clearly shows the new station and a turntable: https://maps.nls.uk/view/106029997

Norman

Norman, congratulations! I'm really indebted to you for providing me with this additional information. Westbury had a roundtable in 1922!!! And, the workings of the station were far more extensive than they were at some point after 1942, and before regionalization. Also, Westbury Iron Works was still operating and is featured prominantly in the map. No doubt a lot of the track in 1922 was associated with the Iron Works. Interestingly, there was a tramway on the iron Works side. It's not clear to me the purpose of the tramway (passenger or industrial?). The station was/is some distance from the town.

You must have spent some significant time with your research! I promise to commit a bit more of my time to try and discover what the station/junction was like c. 1938. The Iron Works closed in 1933. It's academic, but as an American states in their advertising, "Inquiring minds want to know!"

Leon

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2018, 02:06:46 AM »
Norman, I've done a bit more research of the OS maps without success. There are too many missing sheets. The map I've been using is Zoomable graphic indexes showing records for large-scale Ordnance Survey mapping of Great Britain (1841-1991). This is a composite map, obviously including sheets that aren't available in the section Ordnance Survey, 1:25,000 maps of Great Britain - 1937-1961 - 2,027 sheets. It clearly shows the Engine Shed (only two tracks) and the Coaling Stage, but no tracks where the 1922 map shows the turntable. The composite map was drawn after 1942 and the Army Supply Depot was still there. I'll try to find time to see if I can find information about the Army site that would include the date it was closed. That would narrow the time period when the map in the composite (zoomable edition) was drawn.

My conclusion hasn't changed, except to acknowledge that GWR did have a turntable in 1922, and the works at Westbury were extensive - contrasted with the situation after 1942 (and probably before nationalization), at which time the Iron Works were gone.

Very interesting - but not to many people! So, I think I'll let it rest. :) Thank you SO much for your interest. And, I'll be interested if you should find more information.

Leon

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2018, 06:25:31 AM »
I think you need to ask yourself, Leon, how accurate does the model need to be?  In my opinion, the main thing is to create the aura of Westbury in that period and if you have to guess a few things, that might enhance rather than detract from the model.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2018, 09:16:15 AM »
Leon, The track plan and size of the station probably didn't change much until the resignalling in the early 1980s. It's likely that during WW2 the siding facilities were enlarged to cater for the war time traffic. Here's another site to look at with before and after pictures of the 1980 resignalling. (Scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#

Westbury engine shed closed in 1963.

I agree with Laurence -  create an impression of Westbury and given the space ypou have accept a few compromises.
Norman

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2018, 05:47:12 PM »
Leon, The track plan and size of the station probably didn't change much until the resignalling in the early 1980s. It's likely that during WW2 the siding facilities were enlarged to cater for the war time traffic. Here's another site to look at with before and after pictures of the 1980 resignalling. (Scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#

Westbury engine shed closed in 1963.

I agree with Laurence -  create an impression of Westbury and given the space ypou have accept a few compromises.
Norman


Thanks to Laurence and Norman for their encouragement, and to Norman for providing that excellent link (above).

I spent more than thirty mintues crafting (?) a reply only to delete it while checking on a link to the OS map I've referred to several times in previous posts. That map is my basis for modeling my layout, as I know it was drawn after 1942. The Westbury Iron Works are gone and the extensive track that existed previously and subsequently at  Westbury is absent. So was the turntable which was there in 1922. A link to that map is added, and I've tested it by clearing my history, so it should work.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2639&lon=-2.1991&layers=10&b=1

I rest my case that the Wiltsbury Junction layout will faithfully represent the station/junction as it existed in 1938 until nationalization. I'd love to have a turntable, as I have a Southern locomotive which would look great on the layout, but without proof it would be a misrepresentation. One thing I've learned in these few short months - change was a way of life with the railroads, and removing a turntable and replacing it a few years later would have been a minor alteration in their operation.

Leon

Offline port perran

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2018, 06:08:19 PM »
Hi Leon.
I cannot provide proof but that turntable was there from about 1903 till closure in 1963.
The depot simply couldn’t operate without it.
So many trains would either terminate or change engines at Westbury. All of those had to be turned to work back to where they came from.

Looking forward to seeing your layout develop.

Martin
If it looks right then it most probably is right.


Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2018, 11:30:10 PM »
Leon, this time the link you have provided works for me. The map revealed is, in my opinion, not of large enough scale to accurately define the track layout. I can't find the scale of it, but it looks like one of our 'general' OS maps as used for road and footpath navigation. The railway parts of it are what I would call 'indicative'. For instance all the lines into Westbury in 1942 were double track but the map only shows a 'single' line, though I expect that the key would state that the black/white hatched railway lines were double tracked. There are larger scale maps on the NLS web site that show the multiplicity of tracks through the station and the engine shed layout with a turntable. (See my earlier post for https://maps.nls.uk/view/10602999).

I have, from my 1960s trainspotting days, a book of shed diagrams for the Western Region and there definitely was a turntable until the shed closed in 1963. It is unlikely to have been removed and replaced.

The Signalling Record Society have signal box diagrams for Westbury from which you can see the track layouts in the 1920s to the 1950s and they are far more complicated than you are asserting. see:

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S394.htm
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S395.htm
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S396.htm

I am not suggesting that you revise your layout plan by any means but trying to show you that by looking at the 'wrong' map you are being mislead about the ongoing size of the facilities and the station at Westbury.

Norman

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2018, 11:34:43 PM »
Here's a map from 1941 showing the station, shed and turntable.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356

 

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