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Author Topic: Wiltsbury Junction - Inspired by Westbury  (Read 46909 times)

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Offline Caz

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2018, 01:32:53 PM »
Would agree with the other, the headshunt is too short plus I still can't see how you are going to get the wine coloured headshunt over the blue tracks (left hand bottom corner'ish) without having a ski slope to get clearance.   :worried:

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2018, 04:56:42 PM »
A hearty thank you to all who have commented! The suggestions will be addressed one by one and I'll direct my questions and the obstacles I face to each of you, later. I'm awaiting the delivery of my baseboard frame! I painted the foam board yesterday in chocolate and green. I think the directors would be pleased, but I don't think they'd hire me as a painter! :)

I was surprised that no one commented on the single line between platforms! Why do you think that was done? I've taken another look this morning (after sleeping on it for I thought maybe I'd misread the map). Incidentally, the only skill I posess for building this layout is map reading, and I don't think the cartographer made a mistake! Each of you is free to disagree, however, and if you do disagree I'd like for you to tell me. As most of you must realize, I know little about railroad operations!

Leon
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 04:58:01 PM by Leon »
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou

"A well-read man is defined not for how much he's read but by what he's read!" - an old man

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2018, 05:08:22 PM »
Would agree with the other, the headshunt is too short plus I still can't see how you are going to get the wine coloured headshunt over the blue tracks (left hand bottom corner'ish) without having a ski slope to get clearance.   :worried:

Hi, Caz. I guess you weren't reading the early posts on the other thread (planning). The whole station track area is above the level of the station, and the blue line is at the station level (probably a bit lower). The blue line will rise slightly, shortly after the upper right hand curve (not much room is needed for the down incline as the road under the railway dips at that point), and descend gradually after the bridge in the lower right hand straight. Plenty of room to descend before passing under the wine colored line. I think! Thanks for your observation, and others have made me aware of the need to move the head shut a bit to the right. The last change of plan was done in a bit of haste, and I just overlooked that in my satisfaction that I'd found a solution to the other issues. I'm using Kato, exclusively, and am rather limited. One person, for example, suggested a curved point. Kato doesn't make curved points!

Leon
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou

"A well-read man is defined not for how much he's read but by what he's read!" - an old man

Offline chrispearce

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2018, 05:23:15 PM »
Hi Leon. Glad you found our collective (borg-like) thoughts useful. I can't answer the question about the single line between the platforms. The pics you have posted show 2 tracks that split either side of the signal box at one end - which end I don't know. Excellent news about painting your board and the incoming frame. Hope you are pleased with them.
Some situations in life are like dairy cows. When you see 'em you just gotta milk 'em.

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2018, 05:43:45 PM »
Hi Leon. Glad you found our collective (borg-like) thoughts useful. I can't answer the question about the single line between the platforms. The pics you have posted show 2 tracks that split either side of the signal box at one end - which end I don't know. Excellent news about painting your board and the incoming frame. Hope you are pleased with them.

Chris, I'm a happy camper! My frame was just delivered and it looks just like the picture I shared with him. I can't judge carpentry any better than train stuff, but it sure looks good to me. Now, I just need to give the foamboard another coat of paint and glue it to the frame (the frame looks so good, I hate to mess it up with glue!). By Monday I'll be testing the track plan. With a little luck, I'll have a confirmed Phase 1 plan by the end of the week and can start doing the topographical contours. Almost everyone (of those commenting) has had reservations about the track crossings. It's hard to show on a two dimenstional drawing, but I've never seen a problem. I've been there and walked the perimeter of the station, and driven down and along the express line. The elevaton at Westbury rises gradually from the town north beyond the station, though it appears to me that between the building of the railway and Westbury Iron Works, the elevation was probably artifically raised. Be that as it may, there's plenty room for the station lines to pass over the express line. In reality, out of the station the lines west and south are built on embankments.

For those who are considering my question about the single line through the station, here again is the map link - https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356. I love that map, by the way!

More later after I've studied the suggestions and played a little more with AnyRail.

Leon
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou

"A well-read man is defined not for how much he's read but by what he's read!" - an old man

Offline chrispearce

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2018, 06:03:01 PM »
Glad the frame is a success. You might consider adding some screws as well. Gluing 'n' screwing a baseboard to it's frame is very common. Just in case the glue fails over time. Something of a belt 'n' braces approach!

Forgive me, but I have noticed several times that you keep saying things like "I don't know anything about railroading". Judging by your very clever adaptation and interpretation of Westbury into a functional model railway track plan I think you are being unduly harsh on yourself Sir!!  I would wager that none of us are absolute experts and the learning of the multitude of skills involved with railway/railroad modelling is one of the benefits/joys of the hobby e.g. visualization, planning, daydreaming, carpentry, electronics (which you can take as far as you like), art, painting - the list goes on. If Rule 1 states that you can run what you like on your railway, then, maybe, Rule 2 should be "Enjoy the journey into the hobby"?

Good luck with the initial tracklaying. The mainline looks like the obvious place to start as you can then run trains and work your way into the Wiltsbury station. This will give time to finalise those odd details which seem to have entranced so many of us here! It really is a great plan and deserves to be a triumph!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 06:39:37 PM by chrispearce »
Some situations in life are like dairy cows. When you see 'em you just gotta milk 'em.

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2018, 07:24:11 PM »
Good luck with the initial tracklaying. The mainline looks like the obvious place to start as you can then run trains and work your way into the Wiltsbury station. This will give time to finalise those odd details which seem to have entranced so many of us here! It really is a great plan and deserves to be a triumph!

Chris, self denegration does become a bore! :) But, truthfully...! My purpose is to enjoy the twilight of my life, and this project will provide that for so long as I'm healthy enough to engage. My baseboard frame was too expensive for me, so it is an 80th birthday gift from my wife!

You've seen clearly my operational plan. I ran my locomotives for the first time for just a few minutes last week. I want to get the oval in place and the line through the station so that I can test my locomotives (and wagons), and the points. During that period, I'll be building up the terrain around the rails and establishing workable inclines.

I've already gone to AnyRail and made some modifications. I found some extra room on the left side to extend the headshunt. I now have 192 mm before the point. My 5044 is 120 mm, the 14xx is 65 mm, and the wagons are in the 25-30 mm range, for the most part. Do you think that will suffice? Part of the room I took from the right side of the layout, moving the rails a bit closer than I like to the edge. There will have to be compromises, but I want to be historically correct. I'll post the plan with revisions as soon as I get things cleaned up.

I'm still playing with some of the other issues, but would like to point out that I'm trying to place the rail yard functions as close as I can to they way they existed in 1941. Both the goods station and the shed were much further from the station than I can show them, but from top to bottom they are in the right order, though the shed should be further from the station than the goods station. The coaling stage is right where it should be, but the coal merchant is an "add on". It seems logical that there would be a coal merchant and that he would be near the coaling stage. Finally, there was a cattle pen between the goods station and the passenger station. I wanted to include that in the model, but may have to exercise poetic license, once more, and add it somewhere else. As you stated, there is time to work out these details.

Martin, I think of you fishing every time I work on the layout plan! I'm not tied to 1941, but except for the chord and the army supply depot, there wasn't much change before nationalization so far as I can see. (I've bought an army vehicle to put on the road that would have led to the supply depot!) The old iron works removed prior to 1941 and a cheese factory was built at the 45 degree turn of the road to Ham above the station. I may add a factory where the cheese factory was located (and may still exist as there is a large dairy processing facility in Westbury a bit further north).  I have a couple of locomotives that are post 1942, and the army vehicle is post 1942. I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about the single track between the platforms! My solution for converting from two to one track isn't perfect, but does allow me to place the signal box correctly between tracks.

Leon
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou

"A well-read man is defined not for how much he's read but by what he's read!" - an old man

Online port perran

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2018, 07:42:20 PM »
Hi Leon
Re the single track.
If you view any photos of Westbury station there arre two tracks between the platforms. Just google Westbury station and choose pictures.
Those platforms havenít moved and as far as I am aware there has always been double tracks between platforms 2 and 3. Operationally to have only one track would make no sense.
I can only assume that your map has simplified things somewhat.
Martin

If it looks right then it most probably is right.


Offline chrispearce

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2018, 07:51:55 PM »
From the measurements you are quoting for the new headshunt and your wagons it would seem that a loco and 4 wagons should fit. My Bachmann Farish catalogue states that one of their pannier tanks is 67mm so 67+(30x4)=187mm which is less than your 192mm. However, if you wish to post a new Anyrail plan we can take a look and see if you can buy some extra length. Also if the headshunt is 192mm then the lead into the goods yard will also include the length of the loco depot access point which may allow for another wagon or 2.
Some situations in life are like dairy cows. When you see 'em you just gotta milk 'em.

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2018, 08:24:32 PM »
I see what you mean about the single tracks through the station then opening out to two. It seems a strange arrangement but maybe at the time space for the station area as a whole was limited :hmmm:

Offline chrispearce

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2018, 08:37:19 PM »
I have seen some very grainy old pics of Westbury Station and there are 2 tracks between the main platforms. The pics all seem to pre-date your era and, judging by the locos and rolling stock, are pre-big four. Often when the GWR was converted from broad gauge to standard gauge it may have been that there was room to place 2 tracks where previously there had only been 1 but, where platforms were concerned, there would still have needed to be an increase in space to accommodate them. I am of the opinion that it is a simplification on the map although sidings etc. seem well represented. The Great Westbury Conundrum?

I think you will be safe having 2 tracks Leon. Look forward to seeing the new plan ;)
Some situations in life are like dairy cows. When you see 'em you just gotta milk 'em.

Offline Leon

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2018, 08:40:03 PM »
Hi Leon
Re the single track.
If you view any photos of Westbury station there arre two tracks between the platforms. Just google Westbury station and choose pictures.
Those platforms havenít moved and as far as I am aware there has always been double tracks between platforms 2 and 3. Operationally to have only one track would make no sense.
I can only assume that your map has simplified things somewhat.
Martin

Martin, I crafted a careful and detailed response and posted it - but it has disappeared. Rather than attempt to re-write it, just let me say that you know how much respect I have for you, and how much I appreciate your in-put. I can't deny a cartographer's drawing at the scale of the one I'm using, however. In 1941, there was just one track running between platforms in Westbury. :)  I've read of changes made to the Westbury platforms over the years, but didn't understand what I was reading and now can't recall what I read. Bottom line is I'm only able to attempt a model based upon what I can see. I agree a single line doesn't make sense, on the face of it. But neither did the use of the same track for up and down traffic which I saw with my own eyes when I was there in June. A trainspotter told me it was standard practice at Westbury. Things DO change, and some changes don't last long enough to be captured in a photograph.

Leon
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou

"A well-read man is defined not for how much he's read but by what he's read!" - an old man

Offline chrispearce

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2018, 08:58:11 PM »
Looking at your reply to Martin above I would have to say your logic, Spock, as always, is impeccable. However, the camera, as they say, never lies and perhaps it is safer to go with the overwhelming amount of evidence they are providing. If, as you say, a modification was made to the number of platform roads then this would have meant widening the platforms then cutting them back again when double track was re-instated. A rather expensive change for what benefit?

You have had to accept concessions and compromises in your plan so why trouble yourself about this, potentially, short-lived possibility. You have changed the name from Westbury to Wiltsbury so you are now relieved from complete historical accuracy anyway. If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you. How do you wish to operate the station taking into account the number of trains you envisage running? Personally, I'd stick to 2 simply for operational flexibility.
Some situations in life are like dairy cows. When you see 'em you just gotta milk 'em.

Offline chrispearce

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2018, 09:48:25 PM »
I am warming to this subject. Leon, you are perfectly at liberty to shoot me or to ask the USAF to perform a surgical airstrike upon my house but I am going to put my neck on the block and offer (yet) another suggestion. Can I offer the outrageous notion that you eliminate the scissors crossover at the right hand end of the station? That way you could realign the tracks coming from the top platform so that the upper most platform track continues as a straight line and the uppermost of the 2 middle platform tracks curves up to join it. This will (surely) create enough space for a correct position for the signal box. This is, also, prototypical for Westbury.

The curve that leads to your small northern station contains a short length of straight track which could be removed to help accommodate this change. A simple crossover running top left to lower right could replace the scissors. It's just I feel that, whereas a scissors at the left end makes perfect sense, one at the right side end is a potentially expensive item for a branch line that, ultimately, terminates at the upper baseboard edge. Does this branch justify access to all 4 platform faces?

If, however, you envisage a possible future northern extension then it may be best to leave it as it is.

Just a thought.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 09:50:40 PM by chrispearce »
Some situations in life are like dairy cows. When you see 'em you just gotta milk 'em.

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #149 on: July 14, 2018, 12:22:43 AM »
Leon, sorry but you have got it wrong, as has whoever drew the map I sent you. In 1941 there were TWO tracks through the middle platforms. If you review the photographs on this site again http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html# you will see there has been TWO tracks through the central platforms since the station was rebuilt in the 1890s. Martin @portperran has confirmed this earlier. Look at again too at the signal box diagrams in the links I sent you earlier.

Conventionally tracks in the past were either up or down and so single direction. However in recent times in the UK many tracks have been rearranged and resignalled for bi directional working. Please do not assume what existed in 1938 is current practice in the UK or vice versa - much has changed.

 

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