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Author Topic: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale  (Read 2204 times)

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Online ten0G

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2018, 10:53:21 AM »

I'll be setting up the configuration that you're using for testing locomotives. I've bought six already and none have been tested. I'm a few weeks away from construction of my 8' x 4' layout. 


Leon,

If you have 8í x 4í available, you should have ample room, I use a smaller size table. 

The larger test circuit consists of a longer oval of double track with 282mm radius on the inside (V5 pack) and 315mm on the outside (M1 pack), with facing and trailing left and right no. 6 points (718mm-radius) combined with left and right 15ļ crossings. 

The inner and outer tracks do not quite allow for a nice even space all the way round, so a few short pieces of various lengths are used halfway round each semi-circle to keep them further apart.  I am still experimenting using a combination of 29mm & 45.5mm (20-091) and 64mm (20-030) straights as well as the 62mm ones included in both packs.  I am actually wondering now if better spacing could be achieved if I swap the left and right crossings, it didnít look feasible last time I tried. 

It has been configured to present facing and trailing pointwork in both directions to ensure that all the stock travels through it without trouble at all speeds.  The Duchess didnít! 

What I donít seem to have room for is a return loop which would save having to crane-shunt locos when necessary, and I think a nice Kato turntable canít be justified if itís only a test layout.  I also keep it as simple as possible to set up each time I buy some new items. 

The track is laid on a sheet of white protector cut to the size of the dinner table to not only protect the table surface in general, but also for providing a softer landing for anything that comes off the track.  It also allows me to spot any small items that fall off, which does occasionally happen. 

Edit:
  • I only run one train at a time.
  • This test circuit is level, if you're considering a gradient, you may wish to add one in an appropriate position, possibly an adaption of the V9/10 layout if you have enough room to incorporate the Viaduct System components. 
  • I never normally increase the speed into the red part of the scale on the controller
  • I do not like to run the wiring under the tracks, if I wanted to connect the points to the controller I would place it in the centre.  I use the controller from outside the circuit and operate the points manually.
  • If I ever have space for a dedicated test track, then I would consider cutting the protector to allow for wires to pass below the tracks without interference. 
I hope you find the above useful, and hope your exploring is going well. 

Dick. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 01:49:50 PM by ten0G, Reason: Extra details added. »

Offline Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2018, 02:28:37 PM »
Dick,

Thanks so much for your comments and suggestions. They are appreciated very much.

I started a new track diagram to show you what I propose to set up for testing when I return home. Instead, I ended up revising my original layout plan! So, if I can remember how to do it, I'm posting that plan below. My test track will be the outer two track oval and the two track diversion through the station. Please remember that I'm a novice and don't yet understand a lot of the terms used by experienced modellers. Hopefully you'll understand what I'm doing.

The revised layout is the latest effort to incorporate the suggestions that have been made by several on this Forum, and my effort find ways that I hope will enable me to keep the track crossing in the lower left corner. I'll not be altering it again, I hope, until I'm home and have the track to play with. Construction is still a few weeks away.

I did check out the Westbury boxes, and I think I'll be able to print the pdf files when I return home. In the meantime, my trip to Westbury is scheduled for Thursday. I'll probably not be on the Forum much more as we're doing a trip to Wales tomorrow and our son has a busy schedule organized for the weekend. We leave for Boston next Monday.

Leon


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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2018, 03:43:59 PM »
I wish you luck with it, I'm personally still sceptical of that flyover in the bottom left without some horrible comproimses.

The only way I can conceive it working is to get rid of the scissor crossing to the left of the station and begin the gradient as soon as the track leaves the station. That would appear to give you about 2.5' to gain the height, combined with about 9' to lose height on the outer loop. With the scissor crossing in place you have about 9' on the branch to gain the height, which will leave you needing about gradients of about 10% on both routes in order to have the clearance.

Offline Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2018, 06:27:58 PM »
I wish you luck with it, I'm personally still sceptical of that flyover in the bottom left without some horrible comproimses.

The only way I can conceive it working is to get rid of the scissor crossing to the left of the station and begin the gradient as soon as the track leaves the station. That would appear to give you about 2.5' to gain the height, combined with about 9' to lose height on the outer loop. With the scissor crossing in place you have about 9' on the branch to gain the height, which will leave you needing about gradients of about 10% on both routes in order to have the clearance.

njee, I defer to your wisdom and experience! You DO have me thinking hard and I have made a lot of tweeks. More than tweeks will be needed, though, it appears. I'm not trying to invent a new set of mathematical principles, so in the end I'll do whatever has to be done, of course.

I don't remember, now, if you were the one who expressed concern about the sharp curves. I did try to soften the curves, and I think they're better. Do you?

Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2018, 08:30:50 PM »
Definitely, none of those curves look overly concerning  :thumbsup:

Online ten0G

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2018, 07:40:38 PM »

My test track will be the outer two track oval and the two track diversion through the station.




Leon,

That looks adequate to me, although Iíve had no experience with the Double Crossing Turnouts you include in the circuit.  As long as there are no associated problems with them Iím unaware of, you can run-in locos/test-run trains in both directions on it and subject them to running through left and right diverging pointwork. 

The recent experience Iíve had with the Duchess suggests I need to consider more test-running to reduce the tendency for the leading bogie wheels to wander by reducing any roughness on the flanges which Bramshot mentioned. 

I hope your visit to Westbury went well anyway.  Iím sorry I havenít had much time this week (medical issues) but please let me know if you need any further details and Iíll see what I can do if my medication doesnít interfere. 

Good luck with your return flight, Dick. 

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2018, 07:55:54 PM »
One issue that adds to the incline problem you've got. The Kato double crossovers really don't like to be on hills. They flex in the middle (they appear to be 2 sides permanently but flexibly connected together) so are really only at their best when they're flat. Having them at the start of a gradient is likely to cause you grief. I too think you should lose the left hand one as it's somewhat redundant.

Offline Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2018, 09:57:02 PM »
One issue that adds to the incline problem you've got. The Kato double crossovers really don't like to be on hills. They flex in the middle (they appear to be 2 sides permanently but flexibly connected together) so are really only at their best when they're flat. Having them at the start of a gradient is likely to cause you grief. I too think you should lose the left hand one as it's somewhat redundant.

Thanks, Zwilnik. It's my left and right crossovers that will be on gradients. The double crossover, on the station lines, will be flat. Maybe I'm missing something, but the double crossover on the left is essential for my autocoach service between Dilton Marsh and Trowbridge, and for west-bound trains from Paddington (and points between) to rejoin the main line (express line) after leaving the station. The right double crossover allows trains from the north (via Trowbridge) to stop at the appropriate platform and trains from the west to rejoin the main line (express line) headed east.

I spent several hours in Westbury, today, and everything I saw confirms the assumptions I've made thus far. I was surprised, however, that the three passenger tracks serve trains traveling in both directions (the train to Paddington stopped on the outside track on Platform 3). I wasn't so surprised by the outside (third track), but I expected East and North bound trains to stop at Platform 2 and West Bound and South Bound trains to stop at Platform 1, which wasn't the case. I've not confirmed what the situation was pre-War, but I believe the addition of the third platform was after nationalization. I haven't known this to be common practice in other stations I've traveled through in the U.K.

I'm away to Boston on Monday.

Best regards,
Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2018, 10:39:42 PM »
One solution is to tighten the curve that runs north to join the inner loop off the left of the station line.
Keep the line inside the two main lines until it gets up above the top left curve and join it to the line up there.
The effect of this is that you now have the whole distance of the low-fat side of that loop to raise and lower the 2 lines over the branch line. That means the whole station line and its points can be kept flat.

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2018, 08:07:08 PM »
The current layout and station workings at Westbury bear no resemblance to those of the steam era.  The remaining three platforms are all now fully bi-directional.  Before the rationalisation in the early 1980's Westbury had four platforms, two down and two up with semaphore signalling.  The down platforms were for down trains and the up platforms were for up trains.  I'm not overly familiar with the old station layout but I believe any train that terminated there and had to work back to whence it came would need to be shunted to the appropriate up or down side has required.  For example a train from Weymouth terminating and forming a service back to Weymouth would arrive at one of the up platforms and would then have to be shunted over to the down platforms in order to form a returning service to Weymouth.  That said, in steam days most passenger services at Westbury were probably through workings.  It was probably in the later 1960's when some of the Weymouth services started to terminate at / start from Westbury.

According to "The story of the Westbury to Weymouth line" by Derek Phillips and published by OPC, the Westbury and Frome avoiding lines were opened on the 1st January 1933.

Hope this is of interest.

John

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2018, 02:00:32 PM »
The current layout and station workings at Westbury bear no resemblance to those of the steam era.

According to "The story of the Westbury to Weymouth line" by Derek Phillips and published by OPC, the Westbury and Frome avoiding lines were opened on the 1st January 1933.

John, thanks for your conribution. Watching modern day workings gives some insight to me, as it represented my first and only view of any railway working. I've always assummed that the junction was somewhat more simple prior to WWII. It appears to me that the 3rd and 4th platforms were added possibly as late as nationalization and my model will have up trains stopping at Platform 1 and down trains stopping at Platform 2. In 1938-1942 it was unlikely that any train terminated at Westbury, though I do need to read The Story of the Westbury to Weymouth line  by Derek Phillips.

It's impossible for me to show Trowbridge and Dilton Marsh Halt in scale, of course, so my intent to run an autocoach between two points on the line to demonstrate the relevance of that line to the Westbury Junction. Other through services would have used that line, as it was (is) an important transportation link, and artistic license is essensual for suggesting that piece of the Junction. In reality, Trowbridge and Dilton Marsh are both very close to Westbury Station, but Trowbridge has to appear much closer and in a somewhat inaccurate topographical location. Dilton Marsh appears much more naturally placed, but with less impact as it was, then, a halt.

I'm about ready to start construction, and will post more when I begin that phase.

Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2018, 05:51:13 PM »
Hi Leon,
From the info I can find the four platform station at Westbury (two island platforms) appear to date back to 1899-1900 when the railways were expanding in the area.  Obviously you are constrained by the space you have available for your layout and will have to make the compromises that you have already alluded to.  Good luck with your endeavours when you return home and please do keep us informed of developments.

John

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2018, 05:19:11 PM »
Hi Leon,
From the info I can find the four platform station at Westbury (two island platforms) appear to date back to 1899-1900 when the railways were expanding in the area.  Obviously you are constrained by the space you have available for your layout and will have to make the compromises that you have already alluded to.  Good luck with your endeavours when you return home and please do keep us informed of developments.

John

John,

Thanks for your encouraging words! It will be a challenge making the layout work for period, topography, and authentic working. More alterations may be necessary when I start laying rail and testing inclines. That's part of the fun - from my perspective. When I get it right, I'm afraid I may lose interest. *sigh* I hope not, but that's about two years down the road. If I'm lucky enough to see the end of the project, and watching the trains run isn't enough, I'll start another one. :D

Arrived home last night and have unpacked the purchases I brought home with me and those that I had shipped to my home. I have almost eveything I need to make a start. I'll be using my basement office/library, so a rearrangement of space is the first step (most will identify with that). When I have the room reorganized, I'll build the baseboard, which I envision as plywood with either a layer of cork or insulation board. After building the support, I'll most likely use two redundant reproduction keyhole desks to support the ends. My only concern with the second stage of the "big" plan is with number of points that I have to accommodate - one of the reasons I chose Kato track.

I will post my progress here, but please don't expect much in the short term! Just a reminder for anyone who hasn't read all my posts, all but one of the track schemes at Westbury were in place by 1942, thus I'm basing my layout on the period 1938-42 so I can use my GWR logo locomotives and avoid that last piece of track (which allows trains arriving from stations to the east to turn for Trowbridge and points north). I think that section of track may have been added to accommodate the cement works which no longer exists.

Leon

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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2018, 05:34:35 PM »
Hi Leon.
I think the line that you refer to for trains from the East accessing the Trowbridge line is what is known locally as the East Chord.
Opened in 1942 to assist with wartime train movements, thus enabling a diversionary route from London to Bristol and South Wales. Vital if the Swindon route was blocked.
It is of course, still so used today and has always acted as a triangle allowing steam locomotives especially to turn. Very useful if the turntable at Westbury shed was out of action.
I wish you luck with your build.
If it looks right then it most probably is right.


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Re: GWR Rail Junction - Converting to N Scale
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2018, 06:18:13 PM »

Westbury had four platforms, two down and two up with semaphore signalling.  The down platforms were for down trains and the up platforms were for up trains.  I'm not overly familiar with the old station layout but I believe any train that terminated there and had to work back to whence it came would need to be shunted to the appropriate up or down side has required.  For example a train from Weymouth terminating and forming a service back to Weymouth would arrive at one of the up platforms and would then have to be shunted over to the down platforms in order to form a returning service to Weymouth.  That said, in steam days most passenger services at Westbury were probably through workings.


Hi Leon,

Glad youíve returned without any problems. 

Having looked at the earlier s-r-s signalling diagrams, you may find my interpretation helpful. 

Both North and Middle Boxes show lines designated Down Salisbury and Down Main, Up Salisbury and Up Main.

South Box is more helpful perhaps, showing Down Salisbury, Down Weymouth, Up Salisbury and Up Weymouth.

The lines around the outside of the Up and Down platforms are shown as Up and Down Avoiding Lines. 

I stand to be corrected, but Middle Box does not appear to have any starter signals to allow Up trains to depart in the Down direction and the layout does not allow a direct connection from the Up Main to the Down Main.  Middle Siding may have been used for terminating Up trains to set back, but thatís just my speculation. 

Having not really looked closely at box diagrams for about three decades I may have overlooked something obvious! 

Dick.

 

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