New Server: Thank you for your patience. We moved to our new server. Everything should be back to normal EXCEPT for the Gallery. We will have that restored shortly and will make an announcement. If you see something that is not working please report it here: Server Upgrade.

!!

Not Registered?

Welcome!  Please register to view all of the new posts and forum boards - some of which are hidden to guests.  After registering and gaining 10 posts you will be able to sell and buy items on our N'porium.

If you have any problems registering, then please check your spam filter before emailing us.  Hotmail users seem to find their emails in the Junk folder.


Thanks for reading,
The NGF Staff.

Author Topic: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains  (Read 459 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline REGP

  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19246
  • Posts: 1153
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« on: March 17, 2018, 05:47:46 PM »
Just been pondering how carriages were collected from and returned to their sidings.

Was this done by the main line loco or by a shunter/pilot loco?

Was there some sort of receiving track in the carriage sidings from which carriages were collected prior to a journey and returned to after a journey was completed for a shunter to move them on?

Or were they delivered to and collected from the station by a shunter or pilot loco?

Anyone know of a likely source of this info?

Ray

Online exmouthcraig

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 301
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 06:04:20 PM »
The very basic understanding I have of this was that the main line loco ran light to the servicing facilities for coal water and if needed or facilities allowed turning.

Once uncoupled and on his way a station pilot collected stock, ran them to carriage sidings and remarshalled ready to be set back to either UP or DOWN platforms ready for freshly serviced engine to couple up and run away on its next working.

I'm sure there's more depth to it that much more knowledgeable people on here will contribute

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+63)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 29987
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 06:06:37 PM »
@Karhedron is usually the font of carriage movement knowledge but I think a lot depends on size/location and type of station. Taking Waterloo, for instance, a train arriving might have it's empty coaching stock (ECS) taken away to carriage sidings for cleaning by a tank engine which releases the main line loco to go to the shed for refuelling or disposal. Similarly at Paddington pannier tanks regularly did this. Euston likewise. As the exit from Euston involved a climb up Camden Bank, the ECS brought in from carriage sidings by a tank loco was coupled to by the main line loco and the tank loco banked the train out of the station. At smaller stations/termini with shorter trains I would imagine the train loco brought in/took away it's own carriages. No doubt others will know more.

Offline Karhedron

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19444
  • Posts: 2250
  • Country: 00
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2018, 08:20:45 PM »
There is no single answer to this question as it varied from place to place. Most of the big London termini had dedicated station pilots to handle ECS movements. Liverpool Street had a special J93 that was painted in classic livery and kept in spotless condition.



Paddington favoured Panniers (naturally) and the GWR even built a special class (the 1500s) for hauling the heavy rakes to an from the platforms.

For long distance rakes, the coaches would normally be taken away for cleaning. For suburban rakes, it would not be uncommon for rakes to be hauled straight out again, particularly during the rush-hour. Liverpool Street's "Jazz" services were a classic example of this sort of high-intensity operation. Fenchurch Street could be similarly busy.

Operations at quieter stations were more varied. An arriving loco might run around its train and take it away before going to be coaled and watered. Some stations had centre roads which could be used to hold coaching stock until it was needed.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline martyn

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 5720
  • Posts: 583
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 09:11:33 PM »
Liverpool St late steam pilots were a J69 (pictured-not a J93!) and an N7; these two locos were kept virtually spotless, as were their diesel replacemants, at least at first! They were replaced by D0228 (preserved on KWVR) cl15, 16, later 20 and 08 diesels. Liverpool St was probably not alone as trains for the main line were hauled from Thornton Fields (Stratford) by a main line engine tender first; when the train it hauled in departed, the engine would then haul the next main line down train. This eliminated unnecessary light engine movements on the busy approach tracks.

As Karhedron says, there was no short answer. Practice would at least partly depend upon the size of the station. Some stations had dedicated pilots hauling stock to and from designated carriage sidings; others used main line locos before or after their main line duty. The pilot locos would also attach/detach things like extra carriages, parcels or livestock vehicles. Some stations had a dedicated centre line, particularly on suburban services, where the train loco could be released and leave coaching stock in the platform, then go to the other end of the train and take it out on the next run; example, Hertford North. Branch line termini stock would normally be handled by the train loco.

Main line stock tended to be taken to dedicated sidings for servicing and maintenance; branch line stock could be looked after on a dedicated siding, or, often, in the platform of the terminus.

Practice also changed in time, particularly after 1960; previously, suburban sets were probably used on immediate return trains, but main line sets were often diagrammed for one journey per day, or at least have a long layover before going on the return working; hence it would go to service sidings away from the terminus. later, stock would form an inbound train; the inward engine would be uncoupled; a second engine would then take the train on an immediate (or nearly so) return working; or the inward train loco would be released, run round to the other end, and take the train on its return journey. This latter could involve a pilot to assist in releasing the train loco, and possibly taking the coaching set to another platform (eg, an 03 at Norwich releasing the inward engine to enable the immediate return working).

Many stations other than termini had pilot locos which added or subtracted vehicles from the train, including partial reforming of trains when sections for different destinations were added or subtracted en route.

A big question, which has many variations and practices, and which needs researching for the station or area you are interested in.

HTH

martyn

Update; further reading suggests that the Liverpool St pilots were mainly for shunting within the terminus, and cover for suburban loco failures; the N7 principal job being cover for suburban workings,being used on failures first, but the J69 also had trips. Source; 'Steam in the Blood', RH Hardy.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:20:09 AM by martyn, Reason: extra info »

Offline Wrinkly1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 09:57:35 PM »
In addition to the advice already given, it also depended on whether the final station for that service was a "dead-end" or a through station.
I spent my early years train spotting around Bristol Temple Meads which had both through platforms and terminus platforms. Services such as The Bristolian terminated at a through platform but were backed out of Temple Meads station by a station pilot to have coaches serviced at Dr Days sidings to the north-east of the station, but some services of lesser importance were taken forward by the train engine to Bedminster sidings in the south.
In those early times I never bothered to question where the midland route coaches were serviced, but they definitely were brought into the midland platform by a pilot (usually a Fowler 4F) which then acted as a banker for the train up the incline as far as Fishponds.
All the local services were collected and returned to sidings by the train engines.
To summarise, you need to have a picture in your mind of what's beyond the scope of your model and arrange your empty stock movements to match.

Offline REGP

  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19246
  • Posts: 1153
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 11:06:17 PM »
Thanks for the replies and information guys, itís really appreciated.

Although it was pretty obvious that the little branch line terminus was going to be different from a London terminus, I hadnít realised that there were so many different possibilities.

Ray

Offline tunneroner61

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27061
  • Posts: 197
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 11:54:18 PM »
Up till at least the 60s both Paddington and Euston had dedicated ECS and Engine lines both ways between respectively Old Oak Common and Camden. Sometimes at Paddington ECS would be drawn in by the train engine of a later departure, running tender first. After the train had departed it ran out to an engine neck in the approach and waited till it's own train had been brought in, then reversed and coupled up. When a train departed the ECS engine followed a few yards behind upto the platform starter, where it waited till given the road for say Old Oak.

At Paddington visiting engines were usually serviced at Ranelagh Bridge just outside and did not need to go to Old Oak.

At Waterloo the coaches were hauled to Clapham Junction for servicing, whilst the train engines went to Nine Elms. The SR used some ex GWR panniers too on these turns as well as M7s and later Ivatt/BR standard 2-6-2Ts.

So plenty to go at in your research, Norman

Offline Bealman

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23151
  • Posts: 14496
  • Country: au
  • Gender: Male
  • Whoops back we go
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2018, 12:30:33 AM »
A very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to the OP for kicking it off, and also to all contributors.  :thumbsup:
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Online Bob G

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 16057
  • Posts: 1071
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 10:02:33 AM »
At Waterloo the coaches were hauled to Clapham Junction for servicing, whilst the train engines went to Nine Elms. The SR used some ex GWR panniers too on these turns as well as M7s and later Ivatt/BR standard 2-6-2Ts.

And Fairburn 2-6-4Ts, but of course these were "Southern" engines, being built in Brighton after WW2.  :thumbsup:

Bob

Offline martyn

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 5720
  • Posts: 583
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: BR Steam ERA Passenger Trains
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2018, 11:30:46 AM »
A further example was Harwich (Town) which was a three platform faces terminus. There was a small goods yard, some carriage sidings, and a series of through sidings used for shunting the Continental ferry van trains on and off the ships, and this included run-round loops. One platform was used for Harwich-Harwich Parkeston Quay locals, but the other two platforms were used as convenient places to start and terminate longer distance trains to avoid congestion at Parkeston (as well as the Harwich-Manningtree branch trains). Destinations included Liverpool St, Liverpool ('North Country Continental') and Rugby. The shorter trains were stabled in Harwich, with the train engine running light to or from Parkeston; longer trains would be worked to and from Parkeston sidings by the train engine tender first, with the engine running round the carriages in the ferry sidings run round loops. Even in diesel days, the Prinz Line boat trains from Harwich (Town) to Liverpool St were worked to and from Parkeston by the train engine (cl 31 or 37) and were run round in these loops.

Harwich (Parkeston quay) was an example where the carriage sidings were only about a train length or two from the platform, so the train engine reverse shunted the stock to and from the sidings.

martyn
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:46:58 AM by martyn, Reason: Spelling »

 

Please Support Us!
December Goal: £55.00
Due Date: Dec 31
Total Receipts: £120.00
Above Goal: £65.00
Site Currency: GBP
218% 
December Donations


Advertise Here
anything