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Author Topic: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements  (Read 11715 times)

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Online Rabbitaway

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2018, 10:10:04 PM »
Mike

Thanks for the licensing explanation, this goes a long way to explaining the OD approach, was not aware that a license is required for different scales.

OD must have a good relationship with JLR based on the number of models in 00, hopefully a few more of their modern vehicles will appear in N


 :thankyousign:

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2018, 10:40:59 PM »
My thankyou button must have gone to visit emjaybee,s  so  :thankyousign:
 woodbury22uk  from me
Bob Tidbury


Mine too! It's a conspiracy I tell ya.

 :thankyousign: @woodbury22uk


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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2018, 10:44:56 PM »
Same here, I wasn't aware of the licensing hurdle.

I was aware of the Chipperfields situation.

Maybe for some circus and fairground vehicles they could come up with a fictitious couple of names/liveries, and use some of the vehicles already in production. As an example both Circuses and Fairgrounds used the AEC Matador, although often modified for their specific new uses. There is also scope for each beyond vehicles.

Anyway,  thank you for your explanation, it makes things a bit more understandable.

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2018, 11:18:18 PM »
Same here, I wasn't aware of the licensing hurdle.

I was aware of the Chipperfields situation.

Maybe for some circus and fairground vehicles they could come up with a fictitious couple of names/liveries, and use some of the vehicles already in production. As an example both Circuses and Fairgrounds used the AEC Matador, although often modified for their specific new uses. There is also scope for each beyond vehicles.

Anyway,  thank you for your explanation, it makes things a bit more understandable.

When Hornby launched their 1/76 Skaledale building range they also had a selection of cars and vans (from BT Models and Oxford Diecast) and Circus buildings and vehicles labelled as "Skaledale Circus" which were all from Oxford. These were duplicates of the Chipperfields range in different colours and Skaldale lettering.  Then Hornby bought Corgi and the regular vehicles were replaced for a very short period by Corgi's 1/72 scale vehicles, before the whole of the circus and other vehicle ranges were culled. I think there is scope for some circus vehicles in N, but what would be useful would be for Oxford to get the shrink ray on the Bedford TK which formed the mainstay of the Skaledale Circus trucks. The Showman's range which Oxford make in 1/76 has not seen many additions over the past two years, and those which have been introduced tend to be commemorative models for the annual Dorset Steam Fair.

There was only one Chipperfields vehicle in N as an Albion Horsebox for "Hungarian Spotted Stallions".
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:20:01 PM by woodbury22uk, Reason: Spelling »
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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2018, 11:25:50 PM »
Despite my comments of frustration, i do appreciate the difference that OD have made and have a large collection of their models, regularly expanding - defo on the Christmas lorry, the forklift, red cortina and the E400 van (different liveries as they are released).

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2018, 09:08:39 AM »
Many thanks, Mike for that fascinating post.

I like the Oxford Diecast vehicles very much indeed and have several on my layout.

Your post made me stop to think what a serious business it is to allow me to have such jolly good fun with these lovely little models.  I am grateful to all those who negotiate the horrors of intellectual property rights* on our behalf.

My 'Hoveringham' Foden tipper cost a fiver.  Of that £1.00 was VAT.  I imagine Hattons got around £1.25-£1.50 for all the work involved in selling it to me (which they did with their usual courtesy and efficiency).  That suggests that Oxford got about £2.50 for all the bother of making this model.

I think we are so very fortunate to have this excellent range available at such terrific prices.  I'm sure that we all have our own favourites from the '00' range that we would like Oxford to manufacture in British 'N' gauge (mine is the 'Blower' Bentley!) but we have to be aware of the commercial realities for the company.  Or, as you say, commission our own batch.

Thanks again for the informative post.  And thank you, as well, to Oxford Diecast and Hattons. 

*I've done a fair bit of this in my time and the only fun bit is when the Trade Mark certificates arrived in the post.  The hours and hours before that are like bicycling through a bog.

With best wishes.

John
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(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1930s to the 1950s.

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2018, 10:06:11 AM »
hours and hours before that are like bicycling through a bog.



@Train Waiting
With or without a snorkel, John?

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2018, 10:30:44 AM »
I understand that one of the major issues nowadays is licensing. Apparently in the motor vehicle world licences are very specific as to scale, shape, colours and logos. Particularly in the case of Oxford Diecast they have lost a copyright case which led to them being prevented from selling their Chipperfields range of models, and they are clearly not going that way again. Licensing takes time and money.

@woodbury22uk
Do you know when this copyright case was? I couldn't find anything on the WWW, was this longer than ten years ago? There have been some interesting court decisions since 2007 ...
Peter

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2018, 11:05:50 AM »
I understand that one of the major issues nowadays is licensing. Apparently in the motor vehicle world licences are very specific as to scale, shape, colours and logos. Particularly in the case of Oxford Diecast they have lost a copyright case which led to them being prevented from selling their Chipperfields range of models, and they are clearly not going that way again. Licensing takes time and money.

@woodbury22uk
Do you know when this copyright case was? I couldn't find anything on the WWW, was this longer than ten years ago? There have been some interesting court decisions since 2007 ...


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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2018, 11:56:22 AM »
I understand that one of the major issues nowadays is licensing. Apparently in the motor vehicle world licences are very specific as to scale, shape, colours and logos. Particularly in the case of Oxford Diecast they have lost a copyright case which led to them being prevented from selling their Chipperfields range of models, and they are clearly not going that way again. Licensing takes time and money.

@woodbury22uk
Do you know when this copyright case was? I couldn't find anything on the WWW, was this longer than ten years ago? There have been some interesting court decisions since 2007 ...


Actually I have misremembered it as a copyright case. It was an infringement of trade mark case O-054-11 17th February 2011. I have a copy of the decision if you would like to have it.
Mike

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2018, 01:32:44 PM »
Yes, that would be interesting. Thank you!
Peter

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcementsand
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2018, 01:42:26 PM »
Thank you for this.

I read it at lunchtime and it was very interesting.

I note that it was decided that Oxford Diecast did not act in bad faith and it was awarded costs.

Some of the evidence led by the Applicant was 'interesting'.

I get the impression that Oxford tried to do the right thing but was still 'caught out'.

Thanks again.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1930s to the 1950s.

For the made-up background to the railway and list of characters, please see here: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg607991#msg607991

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2018, 10:26:40 AM »
I understand that one of the major issues nowadays is licensing. Apparently in the motor vehicle world licences are very specific as to scale, shape, colours and logos. Particularly in the case of Oxford Diecast they have lost a copyright case which led to them being prevented from selling their Chipperfields range of models, and they are clearly not going that way again. Licensing takes time and money. Lyndon Davies (CEO of Oxford's holding company) admitted on Monday evening that the first issue of the crew cab Ford Transit tipper in 1/76 scale is held up by licensing issues.


That Chipperfields case (to be found here: https://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-challenge-decision-results/o05411.pdf) was interesting, although why Oxford Diecast have registered Chipperfields as a trademark for toys in the first place - also a bit dodgy, as were the claims of the other party ...



But that wasn't what I meant with the "interesting court decisions" since 2007.

I don't know how well known this case is in the UK but in Germany "Opel vs Autec" was widely discussed in the model industry. The billion-euro company Adam Opel AG (German sister marque of Vauxhall - then part of General Motors, now Peugeot-Citroλn) suing the small Autec AG who produced (or distributed) a plastic r/c Opel Astra without Opel's authorization.
That case went up to the European Court of Justice in 2007 (http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=65459&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=1050741) and the German Bundesgerichtshof in 2010 (http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=pm&Datum=2010&Sort=3&nr=50551&pos=1&anz=10, only in German) which ultimately decided against Opel (!). (Even though the Opel logo was also registered as a trademark for toys, not just full-size cars.)

Synopsis: http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/bgh-decides-in-opel-toy-car-case-opel.html

This decision was widely publicized in the German model press, with managers/owners of model car brands saying that this would make negotiations with the car companies much easier or entirely unnecessary. Of course, this has only relevance for the EU, and if you want to sell your models in the USA you would probably risk another lawsuit there with maybe a different outcome. But Oxford Diecast produces predominantly for the UK (with the scales 1:76 and 1:148) and European market with 1:43 (which isn't that widely collected in the USA).
I probably see it too simple but I thought that all this model licensing stuff was a thing of the past (at least in Europe). In the past ten years some 1:43 model makers have begun producing models that are not licensed by the car companies, and they are still in business (e.g. "Matrix" who have also stated that the car designs are only protected for 25 years and that older cars can be produced freely).
I can't see why Oxford would still negotiate licenses - if they were producing promo models for the car makers I could understand, as they order huge quantities and also can provide CAD data of the real cars so that the models are released at the same time as the full-size prototype.
Peter

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2018, 11:33:43 AM »
There have also been court cases in the USA regarding model trains (BNSF was one of the railroads I think) and these found against the railroad in general. But case law does not preclude a trade mark, registered design owner, or other intellectual property owner bringing another case.  The cost of defending such a case brought by an Opel sized outfit could bankrupt a small firm before the case was even heard.

Disrespect for intellectual property of a car or transport company is probably not a smart way to gain the confidence and respect of other players in the full size vehicle market where co-operative licensing has seen Oxford conclude fruitful agreements with prestigious firms like Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Jaguar/Land Rover, Aston Martin,  JCB, Coca-Cola and many more.

Back in the 1980s I had a warning letter from a British-based international airline because I had reproduced one of their advertisements on the side of a printed kit for a Paris bus. It was simpler for me to change and exclude the advertisement and avoid the hassle.

I think this is a potential minefield, and some companies take the Oxford route, and others take a chance.
Mike

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Re: Oxford Diecast 2018 – deliveries and announcements
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2018, 11:51:36 AM »
Please don't tell me that out there some obscure company with laywers on speed dial still retains the intellectual property rights e.g. for the Austin Allegro  :confused1:  :confused2:

(Not that I'm demanding anyone goes out and makes one at their own risk, of course)
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