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Author Topic: Union Mills 0395 DCC conversion using a Lenz Silver Mini problem. Help required.  (Read 2767 times)

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Offline danmk1

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 :helpneededsign:
I am, in my opinion, making good progress on my first ever layout. I have now got all of my track laid and wired and have successfully converted 2 M7's for DCC running.  The time period I have chosen for Borden is late 30's so I was drawn to Union Mills for suitable locos. I have tried to install a Lenz Silver mini and have only succeeded in blowing the chip, whilst on my programming track. I have attached some pictures of my install and would like advise if there is anything obvious as I am at a loss.
I use JMRI for programming on a separate section of track that has a resistor wired in. The layout is controlled via an NCE powercab.
Thanks in advance.





My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline Only Me

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You hqve put the chip on top of the
Metal
Motor..

Pop!

I would shrowd the chip with heatshrink!



Offline danmk1

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You hqve put the chip on top of the
Metal
Motor..

Pop!

I would shrowd the chip with heatshrink!

Knew I should have added more pictures. The chip is mounted on the double sided foam tape that comes in the box.



The sides of the tender also have insulation tape on them.
My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline Only Me

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Have you metered out the red and black solder positions to make sure you havent accidentally soldered them to the same
Track?



Offline danmk1

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Have you metered out the red and black solder positions to make sure you havent accidentally soldered them to the same
Track?
On the union mills the black wire goes to the Loco and the pick up is from the O/S track the red wire pick up is through the tender unit and picks up from the N/S track, using direction of travel.
I have checked continuity and am unable to trace a short in the wiring, I did check before I started and there was contact on the tender when the wheel connecting rods where in a certain position. I have milled out the wheel well to give more space and repainted the underside and added a layer of super glue to give it more protection. I was then unable to replicate during test so proceeded to install chip. This is the second chip and they both worked for a bit but then I got a CV30 result of 4.
My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline Only Me

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Hmmm is the red wire clear of the metal chassis when you put it back together or dows it conduct? Unfortunately difficult to diagnose from pictures and your knowledge would point that you know what you are doing!



Offline danmk1

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Hmmm is the red wire clear of the metal chassis when you put it back together or dows it conduct? Unfortunately difficult to diagnose from pictures and your knowledge would point that you know what you are doing!
The red wire picks up off the chassis. I included the pics as I've been scratching my head and couldn't work it out. Release it wouldn't help really but hoped that I had made an obvious error that I had over looked. Thanks for taking the time to question  :thumbsup:
My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline Nigel Cliffe

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You shouldn't be able to blow a chip on a proper programming track.   However, you say "Powercab", and that can be used both properly and improperly.  Improper use can blow chips.
Proper use is to (a) put the Powercab into programming mode before putting the loco on the track (and thus turn off track power), or (b, and recommended!) fit use the NCE auto-switch for programming track on the Powercab's output.   The auto-switch is about half the price of another Lenz decoder !


I'd be checking for paths through the motor back to the chassis and/or pickups.  Remove the motor feeds (orange and white) and carefully meter for paths from the brush gear to the shell of the motor and thus the track pickups.    Rotate the motor (by hand turning the worm) whilst carrying out this test, it may be an intermittent failure. 

But, "worked for a bit" could be a short circuit failure through the motor windings,  or it could be a low resistance short path somewhere in the loco structure, but not a full short.  The resistance may be of the order of 10-20 ohms, which is not enough to overload instantly, but enough to eventually overload things.   


-  Nigel


Offline danmk1

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You shouldn't be able to blow a chip on a proper programming track.   However, you say "Powercab", and that can be used both properly and improperly.  Improper use can blow chips.
Proper use is to (a) put the Powercab into programming mode before putting the loco on the track (and thus turn off track power), or (b, and recommended!) fit use the NCE auto-switch for programming track on the Powercab's output.   The auto-switch is about half the price of another Lenz decoder !


I'd be checking for paths through the motor back to the chassis and/or pickups.  Remove the motor feeds (orange and white) and carefully meter for paths from the brush gear to the shell of the motor and thus the track pickups.    Rotate the motor (by hand turning the worm) whilst carrying out this test, it may be an intermittent failure. 

But, "worked for a bit" could be a short circuit failure through the motor windings,  or it could be a low resistance short path somewhere in the loco structure, but not a full short.  The resistance may be of the order of 10-20 ohms, which is not enough to overload instantly, but enough to eventually overload things.   


-  Nigel
Thanks again Nigel for the advice. You are becoming my own personal wikipedia  :thankyousign:

You had mentioned the auto switch on another topic but when I purchased the NCE they said it wasn't worth it and just to use Program 4 on the Powercab for the programming mode, as it doesn't apparently alter the power going to the track. I was concerned so this which is why I have now included the resistor in the wiring to my program section.

Could I trouble you to expand on your advice about metering the paths? This is my first ever attempt at a layout and I understand and am happy to check the ohms of the motor but believe you might be saying it could be further on in the circuit?

Thanks again for your time
Dan
My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline Only Me

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I wonder if the body touches the red wire or if it is a conductor of one side of the polarity...in the past on dcc conversions the chips do strange things if there is resistance to the track eg through a large metal object



Offline Nigel Cliffe

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You shouldn't be able to blow a chip on a proper programming track.   However, you say "Powercab", and that can be used both properly and improperly.  Improper use can blow chips.
Proper use is to (a) put the Powercab into programming mode before putting the loco on the track (and thus turn off track power), or (b, and recommended!) fit use the NCE auto-switch for programming track on the Powercab's output.   The auto-switch is about half the price of another Lenz decoder !


I'd be checking for paths through the motor back to the chassis and/or pickups.  Remove the motor feeds (orange and white) and carefully meter for paths from the brush gear to the shell of the motor and thus the track pickups.    Rotate the motor (by hand turning the worm) whilst carrying out this test, it may be an intermittent failure. 

But, "worked for a bit" could be a short circuit failure through the motor windings,  or it could be a low resistance short path somewhere in the loco structure, but not a full short.  The resistance may be of the order of 10-20 ohms, which is not enough to overload instantly, but enough to eventually overload things.   


-  Nigel
Thanks again Nigel for the advice. You are becoming my own personal wikipedia  :thankyousign:

You had mentioned the auto switch on another topic but when I purchased the NCE they said it wasn't worth it and just to use Program 4 on the Powercab for the programming mode, as it doesn't apparently alter the power going to the track.

A PowerCab will drop the track power when put into service mode programming (aka "programming track").  So, provided you carefully follow the process of putting the PowerCab into the correct mode, and then putting the loco on the programming track (not the other way round) then things are safe.  Any mistake and you risk the decoder during the testing of a hard-wired installation.   You could fit a LED+resistor between the programming track rails, and that will go out when the track power is dropped, and then its safe to put a loco being tested onto the rails. 

As such, I think you were given duff advice on the Auto-Switch, it costs about 15 and ensures the programming track has no power applied to it, except for the tiny programming pulses.    But for a shop, they can sell you more decoders as you blow them up :-)



Quote
I was concerned so this which is why I have now included the resistor in the wiring to my program section.

That limits the max current which can reach the programming track. 

Quote
Could I trouble you to expand on your advice about metering the paths? This is my first ever attempt at a layout and I understand and am happy to check the ohms of the motor but believe you might be saying it could be further on in the circuit?

The decoder is reporting a short, but you say it runs for a bit then fails.  Therefore my guess is that there is a partial short (around 10-20ohms) somewhere.  So, prod around with the meter set on its lowest resistance range looking for a short.  The motor windings themselves should have modest resistance (say 40-100 ohms).



Offline danmk1

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@Nigel Cliffe had a delivery today :)
Believe I have a faulty motor replacement unit is on its way. Will test that when it turns up to confirm.

My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline danmk1

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One other question. Can you still use JMRI with the Auto SW?
My layout build: Bordon Light Railway http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39031.0

Offline Nigel Cliffe

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One other question. Can you still use JMRI with the Auto SW?

Yes.   
Both the PowerCab and JMRI are completely unaware of the Auto-Switch being in-place.   The switch just does it's job "downstream" of the power outputs of the PowerCab.   

(You can also use the Auto-Switch on other brands of command station that have a single output used for both programming and track running ).




Offline Pedanticmongrel

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I'd like to know more about the methods and tools you used to cut the hole in the top of the tender so cleanly! Any chance you can share your secrets?

 

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