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Author Topic: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale  (Read 20136 times)

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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #105 on: November 24, 2019, 09:41:13 PM »
I recently got the SBB TEE dining car from Kato and thought that I would add a chapter about the TEE Bavaria, another table-top-sized train with (usually) just three coaches.




The Bavaria was a TEE between Munich and Zürich and started in summer 1969 after the TEE Arbalète was changed to a loco-hauled train and a new use for the five NS/SBB diesel trainsets DE 4/RAm TEE I had to be found. The diesel trainsets were ideally suited for this route as the Allgäubahn between Munich and Lindau was not electrified (fifty years later it still isn’t although they are finally working on it and it will be completed in the next year or two). :sleep:

In February 1971 the TEE Bavaria was involved in a horrible accident in Germany. The leading driving trailer of the Munich-bound SBB RAm 501 derailed in a curve it had entered at too high speed (it was never determined whether the reason was driver error or a brake failure), and in addition a railbus then crashed into the wrecked RAm. 28 people were killed.

The Germans withdrew the type approval for the remaining DE 4/RAm trainsets which were later sold to the Ontario Northland Railway in Canada, and the TEE Bavaria was changed to a loco-hauled train, consisting of one DB compartment first and one open first, and a red SBB RIC-type dining car. The SBB had ten of this type, and one of those was repainted in TEE red/cream and the interior upgraded during 1972. (This was the only SBB coach in TEE livery – the SBB only had the RAm and RAe trainsets and some Re 4/4 I and II locomotives in red/cream, and some stainless steel Mistral 69 TEE coaches.) This was available from Kato as no. K23302.

The Bavaria was a TEE only until 1977 when it was changed to a two-class train and later to a EuroCity. The Bavaria name was dropped in 2002. The SBB dining car kept its TEE colours for years but the TEE logo was removed and the then-current SBB logo added. In this version it was part of Kato’s K23305 Bavaria set with three orange SBB RIC coaches.


The DB cars are from Minitrix, some add-on cars I got loose which belong to a Rheingold or Rheinpfeil set. Also suitable would be similar coaches from Fleischmann (which ride very high though) or Rheingold cars from Arnold.

The SBB dining car usually was the middle coach, with the pantograph side coupled to the open first (the DB open firsts have narrower windows because they have aircraft-style seating, and the window width matches the spacing of the seat rows).




In Germany, between Munich and Lindau, the TEE Bavaria was the star train for the class 210. This was a BR 218 diesel with an additional turbine as used in the Bell Huey helicopter, for the steep grades of the Allgäubahn and a higher top speed of 160 km/h. Eight were built in 1970–71 but the turbines were not suitable for railway application with the constant changes between full-throttle and idling, and after several failures in 1978 the turbines were removed and the BR 210 renumbered into class 218.


The Fleischmann model was produced from 1972–82. After more than 35 years without one, now both Fleischmann and Minitrix have announced the BR 210 as new constructions.
Both will feature the distinctive rectangular exhaust which the old Fleischmann model is missing. Although this was not yet present when new but added soon later, around 1972, so the Fleischmann 7232 is not wrong for an as-built engine.




In Lindau, a terminus station, a loco change was necessary. On the electrified track between Zürich and Lindau the Bavaria was hauled by one of the Swiss locomotives with a narrow pantograph for Switzerland and a wide pantograph for the ÖBB (the Bavaria went through Austria for about fifteen minutes) and DB. Especially for the Bavaria, in 1972 two Re 4/4 I’s – nos. 10033 and 10034 – were outfitted with a DB/ÖBB panto (which also involved a chain drive to pull the panto closer to the roof for the Swiss loading gauge) and painted in TEE red/cream, as were two other Re 4/4 I’s for the Rheingold – nos. 10046 and 10050 which were not modified for the DB/ÖBB catenary. Since it had been extended to Geneve in 1965 until 1972, the Rheingold had to make do with green SBB locomotives, even after some Re 4/4 II’s were red/cream since 1969.


Hobbytrain/Kato made two TEE versions of the Re 4/4 I, items 11018 (no. 10046) and 11022 (no. 10050). Both are Rheingold numbers; the 10046 with a Swiss cross on the fronts (which is incorrect for the loco number – 10050 was the only Re 4/4 I with a Swiss cross like the Re 4/4 II, in 1972–73), and 10050 with the new SBB double-arrow cross logo that was added to all four TEE Re 4/4 I’s during 1973. The Hobbytrain parts leaflet lists a narrow pantograph for the Re 4/4 I under part no. 11010/40 but I have never seen one for sale or a model outfitted with one, so I am not sure if this was ever released. Would be nice to have a Bavaria loco with the different pantographs. The wider pantograph edges were painted red on the real engines.




Apparently, in pre-ebay times the Hobbytrain TEE locos were so scarce in Switzerland that Swiss dealer AKU-Modellbahnen offered repaints in TEE livery with all four numbers. The finish of these is almost exactly like the Hobbytrain factory finish, so any Hobbytrain locos found with the numbers 10033 or 10034 are custom-painted and tampo-printed by AKU. (10033 was also made by Lemaco but I guess that won’t be confused with a Hobbytrain model.) One of the AKU 10033 repaints is currently available on ebay Germany.

Recently, Kato re-released the Re 4/4 I and chose 10034 for the TEE version K11605 because this locomotive is still active as a museum loco in TEE colours. The printing of the Kato version is much finer, and also the colours differ from the Hobbytrain versions.
Peter

Offline biela49

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2020, 12:18:28 PM »
Is good to recall this topic to include new images of another TEE that was born to be that, a TEE. I think that only some pictures have been shown, so I will upload a short video of the Kato's RAe II. This train travel from Zurich to Milan as the Gottardo, and back as the Ticino. It also linked Zurich to Paris as the Cisalpin.




Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2020, 09:23:02 AM »
Thank you for the video – could be a bit longer, though. ;)

Interesting, first time I noticed the new car connections of the Kato version, compared to the Hobbytrain one. So, the diaphragms are fixed on one car and only swiveling to the next? Not really an optical improvement over the Hobbytrain one. I thought from the side view that the new diaphragms would move inside the cars but then they would have to be narrower than full width.


Just a small correction: The Cisalpin did not link Zürich with Paris (that was the Arbalète) but Milan with Paris.
Operationally, the Cisalpin was a particularly interesting TEE: On the Paris–Milan route the quad-current RAe TEE II was actually using all four of the systems. I had planned to add a post about the later Cisalpin (but didn’t want to be the only one further contributing to this thread :-[ – good that you remembered it. :thumbsup:) in its loco-hauled form, when two to three locomotive changes were necessary instead of the RAe. There’s a graphic on Wikipedia showing this (the extension to Venice was not run with the RAe).


1,500 V DC25,000 V 50 Hz AC15,000 V 16 2/3 Hz AC3,000 V DC


© Matsukaze, CC BY-SA 3.0
from: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEE_Cisalpin#/media/Fichier:TEE_Cisalpin_route_and_electrification.svg

« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 09:25:00 AM by Hiawatha »
Peter

Offline swisstrains

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2020, 09:45:30 PM »
..............................................
Interesting, first time I noticed the new car connections of the Kato version, compared to the Hobbytrain one. So, the diaphragms are fixed on one car and only swiveling to the next? Not really an optical improvement over the Hobbytrain one. I thought from the side view that the new diaphragms would move inside the cars but then they would have to be narrower than full width.


....................................

Hi Peter. My Kato RAe TEE ll has yet another version of the diaphragms. ???

It's a cross between the Hobbytrain and the other Kato versions. It works well and could be quite convincing if they had used the same colour plastic throughout.
John

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2020, 07:06:02 PM »
Thanks, John, for this photo. Interesting that there were two versions. I wonder if yours is a later, improved one – or the earlier which was then replaced with a cheaper solution? I wonder how these connections can be distinguished in an ebay photo? ??? Is your train a K11400 or K11405?

This is more how I imagined the new connections to work, and looks acceptably closed on the outside of a curve.
Where do the two cars separate? Does one black part remain on the other car, or do both black parts stay with the grey one and a black part is connected to the next car?

It’s a pity that Kato chose the light grey colour. If the three parts were all the same colour this connection would indeed look very good. I think it would be worth to spray these parts dark grey.
Peter

Offline swisstrains

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2020, 09:37:11 PM »
It's a 11400 Peter. I got it about 12-15 years ago.
This is the diaphragm coupling arrangement.

Please excuse the dust. It hasn't been run for quite some time. :D
It looks OK on the inside of a 295mm radius curve but not so good from the outside although fortunately this is not easily seen on my layout.  ::)



John

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2020, 08:22:03 PM »
Operated with the new SBB RAe TEE II quad-current EMUs, the TEE Cisalpin was one of the first three electric TEE trains (with Gottardo and Ticino) when introduced in July 1961. However, by the end of the 1960s the drawbacks of fixed trainsets had become apparent on this route where ridership between Paris and Lausanne was much higher than onwards to Milan, and with the 1974 summer timetable the Cisalpin was changed to a loco-hauled train using SNCF Mistral 69 stock.
At the same time the Cisalpin was extended from Milan to Venice in the summer months. As a TEE it lasted until January 1984 when it was replaced with a TGV between Paris and Lausanne and a two-class intercity to Milan which both continued to use the name Cisalpin.



CC 21004  |  Vallorbe by Fer Images, on Flickr

Typically, the TEE Cisalpin would leave Paris Gare de Lyon hauled by a CC-21000 dual-system locomotive and a minimum of eight coaches, three to Lausanne and the first five further on to Milan or Venice. Depending on weekday and season, additional coaches were added.
The CC-21000 class consisted of just four engines; two built in 1969 and two in 1974. This was a dual-system version of the CC-6500, also suitable for the newer French 25 kV AC electrification in addition to the CC-6500’s 1,500 V DC. It looks similar to the CC-6500 except for a third pantograph for AC catenary.
On the Paris–Lausanne route a dual-system locomotive was preferred as the line between Dole and the Swiss border station Vallorbe (see map above) had been electrified with 25 kV because of the steep ramps in the Jura mountains.

With a short Cisalpin the CC-21000 would go through Dole without stopping as this was not a scheduled stop until 1978. As the trains grew longer operations at Dole became more interesting: Then the CC-21000 had to stop to change from passenger (top speed 220 km/h, although only 160 km/h with the Mistral 69 coaches) to freight (100 km/h) gearing for the ascent, and the longest Cisalpin consists would even require a loco change in Dole, with a CC-6500 from Paris being replaced by a pair of BB-25500s over the Jura ramps.

In Vallorbe the SNCF locomotives were exchanged. Usually, one of the five TEE-coloured SBB Re 4/4 II allocated to Lausanne (nos. 11249–11253, delivered in 1972) was in charge over the Simplon line to Domodossola where an FS E.444 or E.656 would take over.
From 1982 the four Re 4/4 IV prototypes were also seen with the Cisalpin, and in the winter peak the longer trains with more than six coaches required a Re 6/6 over the Simplon.


This 1980 BBC documentary starts with a journey on the Cisalpin from Paris to Vallorbe behind a BB-22200 accelerating with both pantographs under DC wires and also shows lunch in the dining car, a CC-21000 coasting into Vallorbe station and the exchange with a red/beige Re 4/4 II (after 7 min the video veers off to narrow-gauge steam):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlZaicAXnFA


At a swapmeet last winter I saw this Cisalpin set, half buried under two or three other boxes but the still visible Pirata logo got my interest. Although I thought before that I wouldn’t buy any more of the LS Mistral 69 coaches after the Hobbytrain TEE Paris–Ruhr sets, I weakened (again). :-[

On page 5 I wrote that LS made a 10-car TEE Cisalpin exclusively for Pirata but this information was incorrect. LS made a 10-car Cisalpin in 2008 (three 3-car sets 77101/02/03 and one single car 77104) under their own name.
For Pirata they produced another Cisalpin in 2014 – but only two 3-car sets 6900 and 6901 for the shorter train between Lausanne and Milan/Venice. I have seen these 3-car sets packaged in the usual clear outer boxes but obviously both were also available together in this rather nice Pirata box (which would be even nicer if the TEE sticker had not been applied at a slight angle). ;)



The CC-21000 was only available in N as a rebuild by Trains N’co, based on the Minitrix CC-6500. It would be great if Minitrix would rework their model and release a CC-21000 instead of yet another CC-6500. The CC-21000 could also be offered as the Amtrak trial engine X996.

Occasionally, the CC-21000 was substituted by the newer but less powerful BB-22200. Minitrix has released a version suitable for the TEE last year, in béton grey with original number plates (16005). The Fleischmann versions of the BB-22200 all carry newer liveries.

Heavy Cisalpins were hauled by a CC-6500 from Paris and two BB-25500 engines between Dole and Vallorbe. The latter were produced by Piko in different versions, with short and long cabs.

Minitrix has made six different CC-6500s in the TEE livery – and what came surprising for me, there were four early- and two late-built versions which differ in the placement of the louvers. I always thought there were just different numbers and grey or silver, and I needed almost thirty years to notice the difference. :confused1:
The early variant has symmetric horizontal louvers while the late version the asymmetric vertical grilles. This is Minitrix 12821, CC-6552 with the later body.



The Re 4/4 II is the newest TEE version from Fleischmann, 734001 from 2013. Allegedly, this is a completely new constructed Re 4/4 II but uses the same chassis and motor as before and therefore is still 1.5 mm too wide, just like its predecessor 7341 from 1995 (which makes the model look even fatter than the – to my eyes – not very attractive original). In best Fleischmann tradition, both versions also have the same engine number 11158. ::)
In 1969 nos. 11158–11161 were the first SBB locomotives delivered in TEE colours for the TEEs Roland and Helvetia. Allocated to Basel, these were not seen on the Cisalpin or Lemano.
A correct engine number for the Cisalpin would be 11253 (Arnold 2416) although I don’t know how the old Arnold model compares with the Fleischmann. Although, as the numbers are so small, they aren’t really legible anyway.

The Re 4/4 IV prototypes also look good in front of the Cisalpin. Especially no. 10102 with the silver sides (Roco 23251) works well with the stainless steel coaches.

In Domodossola FS engines took over. I don’t have a single FS locomotive but Arnold will release the E.656 later this year which may change that.
Unfortunately there is no contemporary model of the E.444 in sight. It’s still an attractive model but I don’t want to spend €150+ for the fifty year old Rivarossi “Tartaruga”. Pirata now offers the angular E.444R – maybe they will add the original rounded body in the future.

I will take a closer look at the Cisalpin coaches in a second part. :sleep:

« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 08:48:09 PM by Hiawatha »
Peter

Offline Globibahn

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2020, 10:11:20 PM »
Operated with the new SBB RAe TEE II quad-current EMUs, the TEE Cisalpin was one of the first three electric TEE trains (with Gottardo and Ticino) when introduced in July 1961. However, by the end of the 1960s the drawbacks of fixed trainsets had become apparent on this route where ridership between Paris and Lausanne was much higher than onwards to Milan, and with the 1974 summer timetable the Cisalpin was changed to a loco-hauled train using SNCF Mistral 69 stock.
At the same time the Cisalpin was extended from Milan to Venice in the summer months. As a TEE it lasted until January 1984 when it was replaced with a TGV between Paris and Lausanne and a two-class intercity to Milan which both continued to use the name Cisalpin.

Super interesting, I never knew all of this. Those silver coaches look quite unusual in the Swiss setting. Thank you!

Matt

Online weave

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2020, 08:52:04 AM »
Hi Peter,

Thank you for the very interesting and informative post.

I've got an early version (I think it must be) of the SNCF CC 6500 (6518) which worked OK ish the last time ran it so you have inspired me to dig it out and give it a run later today.

Any INOX coaches are on my wish list but funds are so low at the moment  :(, so am trying to revamp what I've already got.

Great read and keep 'em coming.

Cheers, weave  :beers:


Offline biela49

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2020, 11:29:11 AM »
Two more TEE trains for the Swiss traffic: Lemano and Edelweiss

The Lemano linked Milan and Geneva. For a long tim Gran Confortoe it consisted  of coaches of the FS, hauled by a 444 or 656 italian los until the border where it was replaced by an Re IV II.

The Edelweiss traveled from Zurich to Amsterdam. This train, before returning to Zurich, covered also the trip Amsterdam-Paris-Amsterdam as "Étoile du Nord".

As I have dismantle my layout because of several problems, until I get the new one I just have this circuit to run my trains.


Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2020, 01:33:45 AM »
To Hiawatha,
the classic E444 Tartaruga is also produced by  Locomodels ....is better than older Rivarossi one....with DCC-sound included....around 270 euros..
I’ve seen it running, is a superb model.

Cheers.

Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2020, 06:15:19 PM »
Writing about the Cisalpin coaches proved to be difficult without the context of the other Mistral 69 versions that L.S. Models have produced, so I have tried to compile a guide to all L.S. Mistral 69 coaches, even though I only have those made for Hobbytrain and Pirata.
Easier said than done, as the most valuable source for information about SNCF models – http://www.referencement-n.com – unfortunately has several running numbers missing and also contains some wrong information. I have emailed the missing numbers for the Hobbytrain and Pirata Mistral coaches to the site owner and also pointed out some errors but my message was ignored. :( I guess it was not good enough to write in English … ::)

So, this is also a quick reference guide for myself and anyone interested in the Inox coaches, in case some L.S. sets turn up again on ebay. Recently several sets were listed there (and if the seller had listed them as Mistral instead of Mistrol I even could have found them while they were still active!), and the original prices of €149 for 3- and €199 for 4-car sets don’t look so absurdly high anymore as in 2008.



The Cisalpin and Mistral not only shared the type of rolling stock from 1974 but also had the same route from Paris to Dijon. The Mistral departed from the Gare de Lyon five minutes after the Cisalpin and followed it to Dijon where the Cisalpin continued southeast to Lausanne while the Mistral turned south to Lyon.



© SNCF, from retours.eu

The Mistral got re-equipped in February 1969, five years after a new generation of TEE coaches had been introduced on the Nord TEEs between Paris and Brussels/Amsterdam (PBA). The Mistral, considered as SNCF’s premier train, had to continue with the coaches from 1956 which were getting long in the tooth.
The new Mistral for 1969 was based on the 1964 TEE PBA coaches but would surpass the PBA trains with the addition of a dining car (instead of on-place-service in open PBA coaches and no dining for compartment passengers) and foremost the Arux bar spécial with its hair salon and newsstand.



The Mistral 69 coaches were then also used to equip other TEEs but the exclusive Arux bar cars were not regularly used on other routes for which the mixed bar cars A3rtu were built. These kept the large bar area but the newsstand and hair salon were replaced with open seating.

The SNCB bought six open coaches for the Nord TEEs, as did the SBB later with five for the Cisalpin. Except for the country code number, these SNCB and SBB open firsts did not differ from the SNCF-owned stock.
Usually, two SBB coaches were part of a Cisalpin consist – one between Paris and Lausanne and the other all the way to Milan or Venice.




The Hobbytrain Paris–Ruhr and the Pirata Cisalpin are almost the same consist: a generator car, a dining car, two compartment coaches and an open coach.
The Paris–Ruhr has a bar car while the Cisalpin has another open coach instead. This is correct for a summer-timetable Cisalpin when the dining car went to Venice (after 1979 to Milan) and the bar car ended in Lausanne.

One oddity of the Cisalpin was that during the winter timetables the dining car ended in Lausanne which meant that in the four hours between Lausanne and Milan something like a panini in the bar car was all you could get to stave off hunger aboard this TEE.
In the mid-70s the SBB did not allow the Mistral 69 dining car in Switzerland because of its air suspension. A red former Le Capitole dining car was used instead.

Some photos of the Cisalpin in Italy and Switzerland can be found here:
https://scalaenne.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/tee-cisalpin/



L.S. Models Mistral 69 timeline:

L.S. 70021+70022+70025+70026 (4+4+1+1 coaches)
70022 contains Arux bar car with hair salon
cream window frames, no pictograms

L.S. 70029 (1), 70030 (1)
extra dining car and generator car for Mistral section Paris–Marseille where the Mistral had two dining cars and a generator car at both ends (add-on to 70021/22/25/26)
cream window frames, no pictograms

Hobbytrain H22057+H22058 (2+4)
TEE Paris–Ruhr, H22058 contains A3rtu half bar/open first
cream window frames, no pictograms

L.S. 72031 (2)
two SNCB open firsts for TEEs Paris–Brussels/Amsterdam (add-on to 70021/22/25/26 or H22057/58)
cream window frames, no pictograms

L.S. 77101+77102+77103+77104 (3+3+3+1)
TEE Cisalpin Paris–Lausanne, two SBB open firsts, 77102 contains A3rtu with phone booth
black window frames (except SBB coach in 77102: cream), no pictograms

Pirata 6900+6901 (3+3)
TEE Cisalpin Venice–Lausanne, one SBB open first, no bar car
black window frames, no pictograms

L.S. 70023+70024+70027+70028 (4+4+1+1)
70024 contains A3rtu
black window frames, pictograms

L.S. 72032 (2)
two SNCB open firsts for TEEs Paris–Brussels/Amsterdam (add-on to 70023/24/27/28)
black window frames, pictograms

Additional versions, some with green stripe for second class, were announced by L.S. Models but not produced.


What’s strange is that L.S. went all the way to produce three different bar cars (the Arux and the A3rtu with and without phone booth) but only offered them in one set while all other car types (compartment, open, generator and dining cars) were available separately. The Arux was only made for set 70022 with cream window frames, and the A3rtu with phone booth only for 77102.

So, the Pirata Cisalpin can’t be extended without buying a 77102 set which contains the only A3rtu with black window frames and no pictograms.

I guess the cream window frames are supposed to be white rubber but I have not found a photo of a Mistral coach showing this. In reality black rubber seals are visible around the toilet windows and coach information “cinémas” but the main windows seem to have metal frames with narrow, almost invisible, rubber seals?




The L.S. Mistral coaches were introduced in 2008 and the Hobbytrain TEE Paris–Ruhr sets in 2013. The last Mistral 69 production was the Cisalpin for Pirata in 2014, and this release is unique in having printed “cinémas”. Unfortunately, while this was a new production, the same running numbers as in 2008 were reused. As the SBB owned five Mistral coaches and the first Cisalpin sets included two, why not use one of the three other numbers for the new Cisalpin production?

When examined closely the cinémas reveal that the Pirata Cisalpin goes from Venezia S. Lucia to Paris Gare de Lyon while the sticker on the box only shows Milan to Paris, with coach numbers from 2 to 6 (with the dining car correctly left out). I would have thought that the coach numbers would start with the generator car at 1. It’s too small to see anyway but the train name Le Cisalpin was forgotten. :)


Last TEE 23 Cisalpin, January 21, 1984
© Pierre B, from https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?p=753940


When looking for info about the Mistral coaches I found retours.eu again, a website dedicated to railway-related advertising. I had visited this earlier when looking for TEE posters after Daffy posted the link to the TEE Plakatkunst book.
Some great TEE graphic design here: https://retours.eu/en/14-design-trans-europ-express/

This entry about the Inox and Grand Confort coaches was added only this March, and I had not seen it before:
https://retours.eu/en/54-inox-grand-confort/
Peter

 

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