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Author Topic: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche  (Read 200813 times)

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Offline lil chris

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2655 on: September 06, 2018, 11:34:26 PM »
Your Resistance across  the rail joiners kind of confirms you do not have enough feeds.  Relying on  rail joiners alone is a mistake, every point on my layout  has its own  feed,  more or less every piece  of track on  my layout, the  same  its  own feed. It was a lot of work  when installing the track,  but that was what most of  the experts on here advised so i did it. I must admit were there was a very short piece  of track I soldered that  to the adjoining track, in one case a point. The fiddle yard should be easy to do, it does  not mattter about concealing wires there.
Good luck Laurence but  I think it  will be worth it in the  long run, more reliable running.
Lil Chris
My layout here East Lancashire Lines
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Offline daveg

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2656 on: September 07, 2018, 08:09:20 AM »
Agree with Chris re droppers.

Despite sticking with DC, I took the advice to have droppers on each length of track. Must confess I missed one bit and it was a real pain until I retro-fitted a pair. The only time(s) I now have a problem is the inevitable dirty track but mainly at points. There, an application of IPA on the blades will usually fix the problem.

If you can add additional droppers I think it may help.

Looking forward to you restarting the scenic areas.

Dave G
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 12:39:16 PM by daveg, Reason: typo corrected »

Online Chris in Prague

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2657 on: September 07, 2018, 08:41:51 AM »
I also agree with Chris and for the same reasons. Cant Cove is very small but my landlord carefully added all the droppers as described (every point and every piece of track has its own feed) and my old Graham Farish "Western", on the first test run, ran perfectly all over the layout at the slowest speed possible.

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2658 on: September 07, 2018, 08:17:09 PM »
Today was domestic chores day.  Before I began them, I managed a quick session in the Train Shed.  I was ab le to run the next cycle (9a/b/c) with reasonable success.  There was a slight problem in that the parcels train in loop 15 slightly fouled 61664ís train as it was pulling out of the loops.  I hadnít, so far, encountered any problems with train movements in the DOWN loops.  But this is not insurmountable because Ditcheat Manor runs between Loops 6 and 16 and 6417, with its single auto coach, runs between Loops 7 and 17, so they could easily be swapped between loops.

After that, everything ran well.  There were a couple of issues with the branch run-arounds, but nothing out of the ordinary.  I have resolved to bring up a couple of droppers for each of the hidden loops and then run connecting wires above the baseboard to feed each track section and point.  That ought to sort out the problems with intermittent high resistance.

After dealing with the household chores, I started picking (Hessle) pears.  But then it started to rain and I had to make an emergency diversion to bring in the washing.  Later, I processed my weather data for August, but discovered there was a bug in the processing.  I had a VBA routine to identify the highest temperature for each day, which worked on most days but, on a few days, it gave a high temperature of less than 10C.  I struggled with this all afternoon, unable to discover the cause.  I had a line of code that said when A is less than B make A equal to B.  This worked on most days but, on four days, the highest temperature was frozen at 9.9C.  In the end, after a lot of probing, I discovered that MS Excel was treating data as ASCII text fields when I said B equals Q.  Thus, 9.9 is greater than 10.0 because the ASCII for 9 is 39 Hex (57 in decimal) whereas the ASCII code for the first Ď1í of 10 is 31 so, if it is not treating the spreadsheet cells as numeric values 9.9 is greater than 10.  I managed to correct this by starting with B equals zero and the B equals B plus Q.  Finally, after more than two hours, that did the trick.  I will now have to check back over previous months to make sure that the problems hasnít occurred before and, if necessary, run the revised routine again.

Also, I had a phone call from the restaurant where we went for a meal yesterday evening to say that they had overcharged us (which was very honest of them).  They asked us to return so that they could refund the difference, so we had to go there and have our pre-meal aperitif out, which rather put the kybosh on another visit to the Train Shed.  However, tomorrow will be another day.
With kind regards
Laurence
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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2659 on: September 08, 2018, 03:36:28 PM »
Some Thoughts on DCC

With DC layouts, things are pretty simple.  Each controller feeds one loco (two if you are double heading).  Locos that are not moving draw no current from the system.  The same applies to points and signals.  They draw current when operated, otherwise, they draw no current.  However, with DCC, things are somewhat different.  Each decoder is essentially a tiny computer that is powered from the DCC bus.  I have not been able to find any definitive data but I have seen estimates for individual decoder current drain varying from 2mA to 40mA when idle.  Now, for a single decoder, this is not an issue.  But, I have 19 locos all sitting on the track at the same time and 46 Cobalt point motors making a total of 65 decoders.  If the individual current drain were 2mA, that would make a total of 130mA, which would probably have little effect on the overall system operation.  However, if it were as high as 40mA, that would make a total of 2.6A without any trains running or decoders operating.  I suspect the true figure lies nearer to 2mA than 40mA, but it does demonstrate the fact that any resistance in the DCC bus has the potential to cause problems.  As a result, I will be revisiting all the joins between boards and replacing the plug and socket connectors with Ďchocolate blockí barrier strip.  The next job will be to bring up master droppers for the hidden loops and run a connector to every track section, particularly in the areas of the loop throats.  Finally, I will try to create droppers for the visible track to ensure that there is sufficient current capacity and as little resistance as possible.  An additional option would be to buy a DCC booster unit to ensure that there is sufficient current available from the controller.  This might be overkill because I never run more that three locos at once and each should take about 1A at full speed so, unless my present controller is limited to 3A, there shouldnít be a problem.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash: www.innovationgame.com
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Hessle: www.hessle.org.uk

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2660 on: September 08, 2018, 07:24:34 PM »
As rain was forecast for later on in the morning, we decided to set off to walk into Hessle before the rain set in, which meant no early morning Train Shed session.  However, Mr Murphy was obviously sitting on Cloud 9 and the rain started to fall just as we were going out of the front door.  Because we are still dressed for Summer, we decided to err on the side of caution and so I got the car out of the garage and we drove into Hessle. 

After we returned, I made my way to the Train Shed for a later than usual session.  I managed to run the next cycle (10a/b/c) without any major problems, apart from the usual branch run-around niggles and a coach touching incident in the DOWN loops, where the parcels train was fouled by the coaches of Eireís train.  However, it was not a major issue because I was able to move Eire further along Loop 15 to a position where the parcels train would pass without a problem.  Eire has a ten-coach train, which is the longest of the intermediate passenger trains so I just have to remember to ensure that, when one of the intermediate passenger trains comes to rest in Loop 15, it stops far enough along the loop.  I also have an alternative strategy.  Under the new extended timetable, 6417, with its local train, runs from Loop 7 to Loop 17 and back while the parcels train runs from Loop 6 to Loop 16 and back.  So it is a simple matter to change the route settings so that they exchange loops, which would completely solve the problem.

As I have now decided to abandon the power rail joiners in the loops in favour of direct connections to each track section, it might be worth considering tearing up all the loops and re-laying them to ensure that there will always be sufficient clearance no matter which train occupies which loop.  Yet more excuses to postpone scenic work, Iím afraid.

Itís been too wet to work in the garden today but, in the afternoon, the rain eased off and we thought we would make up for this morningís missing walk.  However, we had not been gone long when the rain intensified again, but we soldiered on and at least got a bit of fresh air.  I had intended to make another visit to the Train Shed after that, but it was raining hard and I didnít fancy getting soaked on the way there and back.  When I have run the next six cycles (11 to 16) I will be at a stage where I can clean the tracks, so I might take the opportunity to tear up all the loops and relay them with direct connections from the DCC bus to each section of rail.  Before that, I will try to replace all the inter-board connections.

Iíve been online and ordered some short Easy-Shunt couplings in the hope that the prairie pony trucks will behave better with them installed.  I have also ordered two suburban brake seconds for 6417.  I had considered buying an autocoach but it then occurred to me that, if I were to buy another loco to use on the mainline local train instead of 6417, the autocoach would not be appropriate.  Although it would be good to run an autocoach on the branch, 6417 doesnít like running bunker first, so I think the branch is out of the question.  So I have plenty to do and, also, plenty to look forward to.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash: www.innovationgame.com
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Online Chris in Prague

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2661 on: September 08, 2018, 08:19:18 PM »
Prototypically, actually, mainline local train could be (and was) operated by an autotrain on the GWR and BR (WR). However, I understand that, for operational reasons, that is not a solution for you.

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2662 on: September 09, 2018, 09:19:07 AM »
Hello Laurence

Just a thank you for all these interesting posts which I have enjoyed 'catching-up' with this morning.  Your observations on the power supply arrangements for use with DCC will be very helpful to anyone considering using means of control.

With DC layouts, things are pretty simple. 

Yes, please; if there is one thing I've learned from my years of fun with model railways it is to make sure this is the case.  I have built a few complex 'cab control' systems in my time and I don't think I'll do it again.

Thanks again and all the very best.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1920s to the 1950s.

Online Chris in Prague

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2663 on: September 09, 2018, 11:39:05 AM »
Very little is as simple as it may appear. DCC is far more sensitive than DC and needs far more power feeds (droppers) than might be expected. That is one thing I got right.

Something I did not do and wish I had is to prepaint the tracksides and sleepers before laying the track.

Offline Mito

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2664 on: September 09, 2018, 05:13:47 PM »
Something I did not do and wish I had is to prepaint the tracksides and sleepers before laying the track.

That's something I thought about but out of the box track is straight but when it's laid there are usually curves so because of this there will be be little bits of unpainted rail and possibly the sleepers would rub the paint off. It would pay for the sleepers though.
You know you're getting older when your mind makes commitments your body can't meet.
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=40567.0 125x60 and a bit.
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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2665 on: September 09, 2018, 08:05:12 PM »
Consist Nightmares

All will become clear, eventually.  This morning we set out for a short walk before driving into Homebase for twenty bags of topsoil.  But I did get a session in the Train Shed first, running the next cycle (11a/b/c).  Apart from the odd hiccups during branch run-arounds, everything ran well until I tried to run 6417 out of the UP loops.  After several days of really good running on the mainline, it refused to start and had to be goaded about twenty times before it eventually took to the tracks and, thereafter, it ran beautifully.

We had a shorter than usual walk this morning partly because there was a very keen westerly blowing down the estuary and also because we wanted to get off to Homebase.  We had a cup of coffee before I got the car out, putting the back seats flat to take the top soil bags.  Once we returned home, I had the wonderful job of barrowing the bags of top soil round to the back garden, four at a time, on my sack truck.  By the time I had loaded them onto the sack truck and then unloaded them again my back was feeling a little sore.  But I did get everything away and then had something to eat.  In the afternoon, I began by picking beans, which are starting to emerge again.  Then I pulled some parsnips and carrots plus a leak and a savoy.  This year the savoys are earlier than the red cabbage, which is unusual.  After picking some Ferline tomatoes I set about the Hessle pear tree. 

Hessle pears are the juiciest, tastiest pears that ever existed.  Nothing that is commercially available comes even close to them.  I picked a trugful and started giving them away to the neighbours, because they wonít keep (the pears, not the neighbours).  Then, using an attachment to my extended pruner, I picked a very large trugful and stored them temporarily in commercial fruit trays in our storage shed.  But we will have to do something with them in the next week or so before they start to go off.  After that, it was time for a cup of tea before preparing the beans that I had picked earlier in the afternoon.  Then it was time for another session in the train Shed.

This time I ran the next cycle (12a/b/c).  Now this was interesting (not pleasantly so) because it was after running 5572 around in the Shipton loops that I had trouble with the consist.  The loco just wouldnít stop and I had to lift it from the tracks to prevent a calamity.  Then I noticed that, when I selected Loco 17 (5572), the console indicated Consist 17.  The problem here is that the loco button and the consist button are adjacent and it is quite easy to press the wrong one.  Usually I notice this straight away and press another select button (accessory or route) which nullifies the consist selection so I can then reselect the loco.  But, on this occasion (it has happened once before) I failed to notice and I just could not get rid of it.  I deleted Consist 17, but without success.  I put 5572 onto the program track and reprogrammed its loco ID to Loco 17 but this made no difference.  I reprogrammed its CV19 (where the consist numbers are stored) to zero, again without making any difference.  I tried switching off the power and then rebooting the Gaugemaster controller, but without any change. 

In the end, in desperation, I reprogrammed 5572 to Loco 18, which is spare at the moment, and that seemed to work.  But, try as I would, I could not get rid of Consist 17.  Then, in a backflash of inspiration, I remembered that the last time this happened, I had to delete the unwanted consist from the memory stack of the walkaround.  This I did and Bingo!  I was able to reprogram 5572 back to Loco 17 and all was well.

I managed to finish the next part of the cycle and, this time, 6417 ran like a dream again.  But I may finish up having nightmares about consists.  Anyway, I am two more cycles closer to being able to set about the loops (yet again).
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash: www.innovationgame.com
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Hessle: www.hessle.org.uk

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2666 on: September 10, 2018, 04:33:36 PM »
I had a bad night last night.  I did sleep but, when I was awake, my back was really painful as a result of the top soil humping and pear picking yesterday.  The result was that I got up smartly and began a four pronged attack on the problem.  The first was Volterol gel applied to the muscular pain.  After breakfast, I took ibuprofen which is a good anti-inflammatory for the nerve root pain.  That was followed by a session on the bat table and then I sat with a hot water bottle against the lower back.  Needless to say, we cancelled table tennis.  But I also missed out on my morning Train Shed session.  However, we went for a short walk to post a letter because the medical advice is to vary between sitting, standing walking and lying down.  Mind you, I didnít do any lying down.  Another tactic for helping the back to recover was to sit in the sitting room with my laptop instead of at my desktop, which can sometimes be a strain on the lower back.  Later, in the afternoon, I felt well enough to have a good session in the Train Shed. 

I ran the next two cycles (13a/b/c and 14a/b/c).  While running them, I realised that the problem joint on the branch that caused 4571ís front pony truck to derail was the result of Copydex creep.  I was able to pin the whole joint back into line and fix it with four track pins.  That cured the problem.  I am now only two operational cycles away from the cleaning cycle where I will start the major engineering work to realign the loops and fit additional droppers.  I had thought to start fitting the chocolate block barrier strips today but, with my back condition requiring a bit of a rest, I decided against crawling under the baseboards.

Tomorrow, we have to go to deepest East Suffolk (Lowestoft) for a family funeral (our aunt was 97, so it wasnít too much of a surprise).  I will take my laptop with me so I should be able to follow the forum and, maybe, even make a couple of postings.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash: www.innovationgame.com
Coventry Corporation Transport Society: www.cct-society.org.uk
Hessle: www.hessle.org.uk

Offline port perran

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2667 on: September 10, 2018, 04:36:31 PM »
Hopefully your back will improve enough for you to drive comfortably tomorrow.
I can sympathise as Iíve been vdigging on the allotment all afternoon. I feel fine but no doubt will be a little sore in the morning.
If it looks right then it most probably is right.


Offline daveg

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2668 on: September 10, 2018, 05:04:43 PM »
Hope the back stays pain free.

I've used Copydex to fix down all of my track and never had a problem of the described creep.

I did, when laying down the tighter curves, use cocktail sticks to hold the track in position while the glue dried. Cocktail sticks were used as the track is on Celotex foam so much easier than having to work with track pins.

Dave G

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Re: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche
« Reply #2669 on: September 11, 2018, 05:23:14 PM »
Today, we travelled to Lowestoft.  Before we started, I had a quick session in the Train Shed.  It was a very good session.  I did make one or two operator errors, but the locos behaved well.  The previously suspect branch track joint is now fine and 4571 passes over it without derailing.  I have also realised that it would make more sense to run the branch loco round while all the trains are waiting in the station rather than waiting until the end of the sub-cycle.  Originally, I chose to run each loco round after it had completed its run because there were only two of them and they both ran from one and of the other.  In fact, in the first place, there was only the branch passenger, but then I introduced a branch goods as well.  However, when I introduced a third loco as another branch passenger, I had to resort to running around the singleton at one end after the other one had left.  So, I waited until the end of the sub-cycle, in the same way that I had when there were only two.  But the new strategy gives me an opportunity to leave the trains in the station for a reasonable period of time while the branch loco runs round.

We had a good run down to Lowestoft and my back is not too sore today.  Hopefully, it will further improve as I continue the medication and I hope to be back in the Train Shed on Thursday or Friday.

With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash: www.innovationgame.com
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