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Author Topic: Made a Start  (Read 754 times)

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Offline Trainfish

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2020, 12:18:53 PM »
Derek, this picture probably shows it better. If I remember correctly the tightest curves, top right hand corner above the beer glass, are around 15" radius. They may even be 12" but I don't have any problem with any rolling stock going around there and believe me, I have most types of stock you can think of. Just remember to make it all accessible though in case of derailments.



Some of my scenics are on their way to being completed as below. You can see the removable pices far more in a picture than in 'real' life.

John

To see my layout "Longcroft" which is currently under construction, you'll have to catch the fish below first by clicking on it!

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Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2020, 01:44:18 PM »
I donít think I can even spell heliks helicks helix never mind build one  :-[

I was thinking of those polystyrene ramp things to gain height coming out of the station

Knowing my woodworking instead of a helix I'd end up with a right horlicks*
As for the polystyrene ramps I believe you mean the Woodland Scenics ones which seem quite popular.

*Other night time drinks are available blah blah

Offline degsy_safc

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2020, 04:08:56 PM »
Derek, this picture probably shows it better. If I remember correctly the tightest curves, top right hand corner above the beer glass, are around 15" radius. They may even be 12" but I don't have any problem with any rolling stock going around there and believe me, I have most types of stock you can think of. Just remember to make it all accessible though in case of derailments.



Some of my scenics are on their way to being completed as below. You can see the removable pices far more in a picture than in 'real' life.



Great, yes it does, many thanks John,

My widest radius will be 15", but I've just checked my test layout with tracksetta gauges and the widest on that is 12" with the narrowest being 9" - I get the odd decouple on the 9" radius track but only with a couple of Peco wagons the other 2 tracks seem to be fine. So I should be OK going from 12" min upto 15" max on the new layout.

I shouldn't need to get underneath in theory if I raise all the tracks including the sidings at the rear of the RHS.

my head's spinning with all the permutations - I could just fancy that beer right now lol.

Thanks again for the pictures and advice John  :thumbsup:

Cheers Derek

Cheers Derek

Offline degsy_safc

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2020, 04:19:33 PM »
Knowing my woodworking instead of a helix I'd end up with a right horlicks*

 :laugh: Im not to bad at woodwork, but I've seen those helix while I've been looking for inspiration - I think they're a bridge too far for me..

As for the polystyrene ramps I believe you mean the Woodland Scenics ones which seem quite popular.

Thats the ones, I'll need more research on how to use them though, it might be easier to just make a plywood ramp.
 
*Other night time drinks are available blah blah
Haha yes like that nice pint of beer in Johns image in the post above, much more palatable  :beers:

Cheers Derek
Cheers Derek

Offline MarshLane

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2020, 11:51:41 PM »
Hi Derek,
Sorry I'm coming a little bit late the party.  Hopefully I can repay some of the help that you've given me!

Firstly, may I suggest give some thought to what you actually want.  A must have and nice-to-have list are useful I found in planning Treeton Junction.    Once you've done this, work through the must have list until you come up with something that covers everything.  I would personally suggest staying away from helix - they are good but complex to get set up right in my opinion!  Everyone is different, some people spend ages on paper or computers, others just lay track - what works for one doesn't work for another and vice versa. 

What do you want in terms of realism?  Are you seeing a particular period, region or type of operation? If so, that will give you some areas to look at - id suggest searching Flickr as a good step.  Are you looking for a layout that you can watch the trains go-by, one where you can shunt wagons about, or a combination? 

One thing that I think all of us modellers (me included!) do is to try and get too much into the space. Again its personal preference, whether you want to prioritise operational options over scenic realism or vice versa.  But the odd adage of less is more is, in my view, even more correct in N gauge than any other - simply because you can fit more into a smaller space, and we all tend to!  I would be tempted to pair the 'must-have' into absolute basic layout, and a second 'would like to have but could possibly do without' list.  The aim is to get everything off both on the layout, but it will help you keep to what you want, and what will work.

Do not worry about spending time thinking about options.  Trust me, I have been planning Treeton for just over 12 months now, and in that time I have been through countless iterations, scrapped it and looked at other locations both real and fictional, changed period, and come back again, then revised what I had last time!  The current scenario has been fixed since Christmas (with one little wobble!) in terms of setting, period, track-layout (in terms of back of the envelope drawings). Because I aim aiming for an accurate realistic operation and also building in 2mm Finescale with hand-built trackwork, I have spent time working out siding length, operational moves, signal positions, magnet uncouplers, the power bus bar underneath etc, but not everyone will go that far.  I am now tweaking the design in Templot prior to building the baseboards as you know, and starting work building the points. What I am trying to say is everyone has their own way of working and it is something that shouldn't be rushed, and just take time to find yours.

Remember to work on the widest possible radius for curves that you can, so on a 32 inch baseboard, you will be looking about 30 inches diameter or 15" radius for the outer track, and 14.5" radius for the inner on a double track curve. I would agree with the previous comments about hiding that under scenery so it does not look wrong.

I like the comment about a half station, but I have a couple of thoughts for you.  These might already have been considered and discounted.  Does the layout need to be a 'roundy-roundy?  Could it be hidden siding to hidden siding? Given the space that you have it may be worth looking to avoid the multiple-levels and keep everything on one level, consider that your running on 15" radius curves at the right hand edge, maximum (to keep a gap between the rail and the edge of the board in case anything comes off) now if you have to climb from the lower to the upper level, in the space of 4' running line - N gauge trains are going to struggle, both the sharpness of the grade and tightness of the curve, so will that give you what you want?

As an example, I am fortunate with Treeton that while it has to put away when not in use, I have the space and width, so the grades will be 1-in-60 (or 1 in 70 if I can get it) that is climbing one inch for every 60 inches travelled.  Looking at where you are, you will leave the station on the green line for example, I estimate you have about a foot maximum, then the 2' 6" diameter curve and another foot, so 4' 6" (54 inches) absolute maximum and probably a little bit shorter. If we say its 50inches distance from the start to the end of the climb and your rising 1 inch, your looking at a 1-in-50 grade on a tightish curve.  I suspect you will have problems - making an assumption on the length of the sidings to the length of your trains.  There are ways to help and improve things, but I would strongly look at that.  Would you be better for example making the distance at the right hand back and left hand front the grades - here you can get probably 9 foot - 108" inches on straight track for the climb, giving a 1-in-108 grade without the added problems of the curving track.

On the other hand if you take the grades out totally and use flat crossings, with three circuits and trains running at different times and speeds how are you going to prevent any 'accidents' on the crossovers?  I have a thought in the back of my mind that may work, if I get chance tomorrow I'll draft it out and post it.

Rich

Online Lawrence

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2020, 09:28:51 AM »
Hi Derek, just popped in to say how much I liked your plan and the build seems to be coming along well. I noticed the window/roof light in the corner above the airfield. I take it that wont cause any issues with strong sunlight/overheating or dripping condensation, just a thought.
Didn't know there were Stirling Albion fans in Sunderland  ;)

Offline Trainfish

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2020, 10:03:20 AM »
I'm guessing you meant my airfield?

The intention is to get a blind for that window to block out the sun as it is South facing. Condensation has never been an issue though in the 14 years I've lived here  :thumbsup:

I'm an STFC fan as opposed to a SAFC fan too. And it's not Shrewsbury Town either  :P
John

To see my layout "Longcroft" which is currently under construction, you'll have to catch the fish below first by clicking on it!

<*))))><

See my Youtube video channel          >>>>>>>> here <<<<<<<<          >>>>>>>> or here <<<<<<<<          >>>>>>>> or here <<<<<<<<

Offline degsy_safc

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2020, 10:43:03 AM »
Hi Derek,
Sorry I'm coming a little bit late the party.  Hopefully I can repay some of the help that you've given me!

Firstly, may I suggest give some thought to what you actually want.  A must have and nice-to-have list are useful I found in planning Treeton Junction.    Once you've done this, work through the must have list until you come up with something that covers everything.  I would personally suggest staying away from helix - they are good but complex to get set up right in my opinion!  Everyone is different, some people spend ages on paper or computers, others just lay track - what works for one doesn't work for another and vice versa.
I did the must have / would like a while ago - need to revisit that again. I don't fancy the helix option not sure I'd be able to construct one anyway. When I built the test layout, I had a rough idea, but I pulled it up 3 times before I got something that would serve its purpose for running in / testing and amuse me at the same time, that's why I'd like to have something on paper that I can can visualise.

What do you want in terms of realism?  Are you seeing a particular period, region or type of operation? If so, that will give you some areas to look at - id suggest searching Flickr as a good step.  Are you looking for a layout that you can watch the trains go-by, one where you can shunt wagons about, or a combination? 
Im not after modelling a specific location, think it will be a mix of passenger and freight, and will probably be diesels, so BR blue, sectorisation maybe privatisation. I don't have much rolling stock and with the prices being charged it will be a very gradual build up anyway. don't think I'd want to get into complex shunting operations so I guess that means id like to watch the trains going round.

One thing that I think all of us modellers (me included!) do is to try and get too much into the space. Again its personal preference, whether you want to prioritise operational options over scenic realism or vice versa.  But the odd adage of less is more is, in my view, even more correct in N gauge than any other - simply because you can fit more into a smaller space, and we all tend to!  I would be tempted to pair the 'must-have' into absolute basic layout, and a second 'would like to have but could possibly do without' list.  The aim is to get everything off both on the layout, but it will help you keep to what you want, and what will work.
I totally agree, the station I started with to the one in the plan above are poles apart, but I was thinking of having multiple trains for interest rather than just a couple running round in circles, having the multiple lines through the stations allows DMU's, stopping passenger trains, non-stopping trains, freight / parcels to be operated with user interaction to keep them apart etc etc. But like you said, have I over egged the amount of tracks at the station, is it just too much for the space I have.

Do not worry about spending time thinking about options.  Trust me, I have been planning Treeton for just over 12 months now, and in that time I have been through countless iterations, scrapped it and looked at other locations both real and fictional, changed period, and come back again, then revised what I had last time!  The current scenario has been fixed since Christmas (with one little wobble!) in terms of setting, period, track-layout (in terms of back of the envelope drawings). Because I aim aiming for an accurate realistic operation and also building in 2mm Finescale with hand-built trackwork, I have spent time working out siding length, operational moves, signal positions, magnet uncouplers, the power bus bar underneath etc, but not everyone will go that far.  I am now tweaking the design in Templot prior to building the baseboards as you know, and starting work building the points. What I am trying to say is everyone has their own way of working and it is something that shouldn't be rushed, and just take time to find yours.
Yes, something that LASteve said also, I guess its the urge to get something started so we can watch trains running. Rushing it (like I did on the test layout) meant several iterations of lifting and relaying track, something I really would like to avoid. Hence why I'd like to see something visually pleasing to me before I make a start.

Remember to work on the widest possible radius for curves that you can, so on a 32 inch baseboard, you will be looking about 30 inches diameter or 15" radius for the outer track, and 14.5" radius for the inner on a double track curve. I would agree with the previous comments about hiding that under scenery so it does not look wrong.
Yes John's pictures were very helpful in that respect, I'm pretty sure that is now firmly to be added on the 'must have' list especially at the far right hand end - must just remember to make it removable in case of derailments.

I like the comment about a half station, but I have a couple of thoughts for you.  These might already have been considered and discounted.  Does the layout need to be a 'roundy-roundy?  Could it be hidden siding to hidden siding? Given the space that you have it may be worth looking to avoid the multiple-levels and keep everything on one level, consider that your running on 15" radius curves at the right hand edge, maximum (to keep a gap between the rail and the edge of the board in case anything comes off) now if you have to climb from the lower to the upper level, in the space of 4' running line - N gauge trains are going to struggle, both the sharpness of the grade and tightness of the curve, so will that give you what you want?
To be honest, I did like the idea of a change in level for more interest, but when I was pondering how I'd do it, I then realised the additional work across the whole layout, not to mention being able to get my hands in if I need to reach for rolling stock. The more I thought about it the more I started to think id maybe prefer to keep it on the level. I thought I'd like to have some form of bridge on the layout, but it doesn't have to carry trains - it can be a road bridge crossing the railway, a tunnel mouth will also give me something visually appealing and this could easily be accommodated on the RHS to hide the curves.

As an example, I am fortunate with Treeton that while it has to put away when not in use, I have the space and width, so the grades will be 1-in-60 (or 1 in 70 if I can get it) that is climbing one inch for every 60 inches travelled.  Looking at where you are, you will leave the station on the green line for example, I estimate you have about a foot maximum, then the 2' 6" diameter curve and another foot, so 4' 6" (54 inches) absolute maximum and probably a little bit shorter. If we say its 50inches distance from the start to the end of the climb and your rising 1 inch, your looking at a 1-in-50 grade on a tightish curve.  I suspect you will have problems - making an assumption on the length of the sidings to the length of your trains.  There are ways to help and improve things, but I would strongly look at that.  Would you be better for example making the distance at the right hand back and left hand front the grades - here you can get probably 9 foot - 108" inches on straight track for the climb, giving a 1-in-108 grade without the added problems of the curving track.

On the other hand if you take the grades out totally and use flat crossings, with three circuits and trains running at different times and speeds how are you going to prevent any 'accidents' on the crossovers?  I have a thought in the back of my mind that may work, if I get chance tomorrow I'll draft it out and post it.

Rich

Yes, your comment made me look at that as an option, but what goes up must come down on the roundy roundy and as the LHS is to be non scenic at this moment in time it will still need to pass through the partition wall and either the station area will be elevated or the rear siding area would need to be elevated for the down slope  - in reality I was only adding the LHS to give an extra 22ft of running track so that the trains disappear from view for a while before they return to the scenic section. if I run with 3 loops there is more than enough clearance to run them through the partition side by side so no need to cross over, but I look forward to your suggestion for this specific area when you get the chance to draft it.

The difficulty with only having 32" width and a station with multiple platforms is that it soon eats up space and the fact that the clearance at the partition based on joist location etc is only 15" means all of the tracks have to curve towards that point which again takes up space at the LHS side of the scenic layout. Ive got the Peco set track plan book and have looked at all manner of plans in that, but they don't really appeal to me.

Because my layout will be constrained to the sizes outlined in the image earlier in the thread - I was half inclined to get the timber and start to build the base boards. I was thinking of building 3x1 frames with a 9mm ply top and then 9mm Sundeala top on that. The RHS will be made up of 2 @ 4' x 32" and 1 @ 32" x 32" giving the total 128" length. I'll bolt them together, fix butt hinges to the longitudinal joist and the 3" x 1" rear framing timbers and add 2 @ 2"x 2" legs to the front of each board with adjustable feet. I'll then be able to hinge the board upwards if I need to get underneath where we have stuff stored, but will be a boon for wiring.
 
Many thanks for such a detailed reply with a load of stuff to consider

Cheers Derek

Cheers Derek

Offline degsy_safc

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2020, 11:16:09 AM »
Hi Derek, just popped in to say how much I liked your plan and the build seems to be coming along well. I noticed the window/roof light in the corner above the airfield. I take it that wont cause any issues with strong sunlight/overheating or dripping condensation, just a thought.
Didn't know there were Stirling Albion fans in Sunderland  ;)
Hi Lawrence - I see John (Trainfish) has replied to clear up the confusion lol.

Wish I'd had John's layout in my loft, all the planning / headaches would be gone and I'd be at the joy of building stage..

Funny thing I seem to remember a while back Sunderland FC reached out to all league clubs with the initials SAFC - Stirling Albion was obviously one of them and from what I can remember a number of exchange visits by each clubs supporters have been made in both direction. Im sure there was a Canadian club who got right behind the campaign as well .

Haway the lads..

Cheers Derek
Cheers Derek

Offline degsy_safc

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2020, 11:22:59 AM »
I'm guessing you meant my airfield?

The intention is to get a blind for that window to block out the sun as it is South facing. Condensation has never been an issue though in the 14 years I've lived here  :thumbsup:

I'm an STFC fan as opposed to a SAFC fan too. And it's not Shrewsbury Town either  :P

Would that be Swindon Town by any chance?
Cheers Derek

Online Lawrence

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2020, 01:03:36 PM »
John, Derek apologies for the confusion, can I blame it on the current batch of drugs I a on please, don't know if it's half past two or Tuesday at the moment :confused1: :-\

Wow, a Strathspey Thistle fan so far south  :D

p.s. just in case you don't believe they exist https://strathspeythistlefc.com/

Offline Trainfish

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Re: Made a Start
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2020, 03:20:54 PM »

Wow, a Strathspey Thistle fan so far south  :D


Blimey, I wouldn't want to try saying that sentence after a few IPAs  :-X
John

To see my layout "Longcroft" which is currently under construction, you'll have to catch the fish below first by clicking on it!

<*))))><

See my Youtube video channel          >>>>>>>> here <<<<<<<<          >>>>>>>> or here <<<<<<<<          >>>>>>>> or here <<<<<<<<

 

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