Do we expect too much ?

[port perran]

Seems crazy to spend so much money on locos that will never run.

I'm not so sure that there are that many static collectors out there.... but maybe someone can prove me wrong.
I agree with Elvinley - why spend that much money on a loco that will never be used ?
I would have thought that most static collectors would go for the 00 market displaying something that is a reasonable size to be viewed.

[Elvinley]

Seems crazy to spend so much money on locos that will never run.

I'm not so sure that there are that many static collectors out there.... but maybe someone can prove me wrong.
I agree with Elvinley - why spend that much money on a loco that will never be used ?
I would have thought that most static collectors would go for the 00 market displaying something that is a reasonable size to be viewed.

yeah or buy some Del Prado

[Dr Al]

The problem is that actually, there is not "a market"; there are two distinct markets for the same products, and it is impossible to respond to both. There are the "static display" collectors, whose demands are for ever more precise and accurate detail; and then there are the "wagons roll" modellers, who want to run realistic trains that will be viewed from a distance such that most of the detail currently being applied is too small to be appreciated in any event.

Sorry, but I'd strongly disagree with this - it seems a sweeping pigeon holing generalisation into two distinct categories with no overlap, which is just not valid IMHO.

There are plenty of "wagons roll" modellers who want precise and accurate detail as part of their running models also. I would classify myself as one of them, and could suggest several more on this forum too. The two are not mutually exclusive by any means and, as the standard of current models show, it's possible to have both high detail and a good reliable working model.

I want both, and believe we can (and do for the most part) have it, as it's clear the manufacturers know their market and acknowledge this actual demand via their leaps and bounds of improvements in standards over the last decade.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

yeah or buy some Del Prado

Sadly, it seems now the world will never ever be rid of that tat evermore.....



Cheers,
Alan

[Portpatrick]

The regular debate rehashed!

Al makes, I feel, a valid point in that we expect improving quality and detail in those locos which we run and are not normally seen close up.  It is right in that respect that Grafar in particular have a pack for very small details.  I never add them in part because with my hand tremor I can't anyway, but my stock is handled regularly whether on my layout or the club layout out at shows so will be at greater risk of damage.  That said there is a question of balance here.  Even out of the box, current offerings, steam especially, are far more fragile than before.  Especially the handrails.  I remember a few years ago my first new Jubilee came at the same time as a UM 2P.  The first looks exquisite, once I had repaired a damaged handrail!.   The 2P looked fine at viewing distances and had a good solid feel and look to it - ideal for regular handling.  Not sure how those 2 can be brought together.  But I do find it interesting that a few have expressed a view that the new Duchess is not so great an improvement on the old.  I have one of each, and my only issue is the front bogie spacing.   The older one often runs on the club layout.  The new one has only been out once so far and only run when I am present - even the out of box the detailing is on the fragile side and it cost me £127!  Personally I do feel we may have gone a little too far in separate fine detail - but I am sure (many) others will disagree.

And I agree fully with the comment that good running, subject to running in, straight out of the box, is the first priority however detailed the loco is.  My original 1980ish black 5s need adjustments so the valve gear did not bind and the pick ups touched the wheels, after which they ran impeccably for 30 years.  Thankfully I have not had to return anything so far.  The few issues I have experienced since Grafar moved to china and Dapol came in stream have been minor and I have sorted them myself.  A friend of mine had his A1 valve gear fall apart - is it too fine these days to be strong enough?  He managed to effect a repair with a watchmakers screw.  But such things should not be happening.  And I do find it impossible to judge what proportion of total sales are represented by those of our fellow modellers have shared their frustrations.  Is there any reliable evidence out there?

[railsquid]

yeah or buy some Del Prado

Sadly, it seems now the world will never ever be rid of that tat evermore.....

You'd never guess what I found in a second-hand shop in Tokyo the other day...

[Zogbert Splod]

You'd never guess what I found in a second-hand shop in Tokyo the other day...

Is this a competition? With prizes? I'll enter!
A half eaten licorice statue of Godfrey Winn, a green plastic model of the Eiffel Tower and a life size photograph of Mount Everest. Should I PM my address now so that you can send my mystery prize? (the prize is a Del Prado loco isn't it. I guessed...)

[Dr Al]

But I do find it interesting that a few have expressed a view that the new Duchess is not so great an improvement on the old.  I have one of each, and my only issue is the front bogie spacing.   

The new model is superb. I think the reason it's come with less acclaim than others is a reflection more on the old model than the new one. The old model was pretty good for its time as compared others from the same era. Correct look, not like other similar aged models (Farish A3 is great example with huge overscale boiler). The only biggy with the new tool model is Bachmann's cost cutting in using the front Bogie off a Scot/Jub which is of course completely wrong.

A friend of mine had his A1 valve gear fall apart - is it too fine these days to be strong enough? 

Yes and no IMHO. The Farish models now use a few cast valve gear components, and these are more fragile than the all etched ones on old tool Farish, but also more accurate. Sometimes the screws/hex bolts can loosen off too, but that's more an issue of QC that they weren't quite tight enough in the first place. However, valve gear in general is up to handling IMHO.

I think one thing people overlook, and it's perhaps a provocative comment, but the way some folks handle these models is shocking, and it's no wonder they end up damaged. I've observed with uneasy interest at exhibitions how rough many are with models of all scales - dragging them along the track, dropping them down carelessly, etc. We've all done it, all had our slips and foul ups, and dropped something or the likes, but many seem permanently carefree. The models are possibly a bit more fragile nowadays being mostly plastic construction rather than the old cast solid lumps, and therefore do need a modicum of care - but I find it amazing how many seem not to bother, even with a purchase worth hundreds of £.

And I do find it impossible to judge what proportion of total sales are represented by those of our fellow modellers have shared their frustrations.  Is there any reliable evidence out there?

Manufacturer returns seem to be reported at 5-10% from model shops. But that doesn't count the plethora of models that are fixed by us or have faults that are never picked up on because they are bought by collectors who don't run them. Therefore, I'd suspect the quantity is significantly greater than 10% ultimately.

Cheers,
Alan

[Newportnobby]

I think one thing people overlook, and it's perhaps a provocative comment, but the way some folks handle these models is shocking, and it's no wonder they end up damaged. I've observed with uneasy interest at exhibitions how rough many are with models of all scales - dragging them along the track, dropping them down carelessly, etc. We've all done it, all had our slips and foul ups, and dropped something or the likes, but many seem permanently carefree. The models are possibly a bit more fragile nowadays being mostly plastic construction rather than the old cast solid lumps, and therefore do need a modicum of care - but I find it amazing how many seem not to bother, even with a purchase worth hundreds of £.

Visiting, as I tend to do, some 20-25 shows over the year I have to agree with Alan on that, especially the 'dragging along the track' bit

Manufacturer returns seem to be reported at 5-10% from model shops. But that doesn't count the plethora of models that are fixed by us or have faults that are never picked up on because they are bought by collectors who don't run them. Therefore, I'd suspect the quantity is significantly greater than 10% ultimately.

I confess I have no figures to counter that 'significantly greater than 10%' but would be extremely concerned if it was that high
In my business life I always succeeded in keeping customer returns at/under 1% but accept the figure may be about 5% without the 'owner repaired' items being included.

[Portpatrick]

Alan

Interesting feedback.  Yes, the old duchess was good in its day, like IMHO the Std 264T, the Crab and the 4F (tender apart?).  The usual issue of bogies and driving wheel size were its obvious shortcomings.  Have bought city of Coventry as that is the only one I ever saw in the flesh.  And retain an old style Green one which was modified to a non ex streamlined format by its first owner - I bought it in 1985!

It was the plastic bit on the A1 which disappeared - don't know what it is called!.  You make a valid point that too many people are too ham fisted, I have seen this myself,  though it must be an open question what is "reasonable" ability to cope with handling.  And what is normal handling.  My stock appears at exhibitions but I realise that is not the case for everyone, so greater finnesse, and fragility, is fine for others.

Your statistic on the returns rate, plus allowance for those of us who deal with minor faults,  seems horrifying to me.  The manufacturers really must get their QC better managed .

[Sprintex]

I think one thing people overlook, and it's perhaps a provocative comment, but the way some folks handle these models is shocking, and it's no wonder they end up damaged. I've observed with uneasy interest at exhibitions how rough many are with models of all scales - dragging them along the track, dropping them down carelessly, etc. We've all done it, all had our slips and foul ups, and dropped something or the likes, but many seem permanently carefree.

I have to agree with this sentiment, I too have seen some sausage-fingered operators plonk a loco down hard from three inches above the track, and if all the wheels didn't land correctly on the track they'd lift it up and do the same again until it did!

Have these people never heard of a Peco Re-railer Ramp?


Paul

[Graham Walters]

I think one thing people overlook, and it's perhaps a provocative comment, but the way some folks handle these models is shocking, and it's no wonder they end up damaged. I've observed with uneasy interest at exhibitions how rough many are with models of all scales - dragging them along the track, dropping them down carelessly, etc. We've all done it, all had our slips and foul ups, and dropped something or the likes, but many seem permanently carefree.

I have to agree with this sentiment, I too have seen some sausage-fingered operators plonk a loco down hard from three inches above the track, and if all the wheels didn't land correctly on the track they'd lift it up and do the same again until it did!

Have these people never heard of a Peco Re-railer Ramp?


Paul

Or perhaps they simply have more money than sense, whilst I have to save for several months to buy a DCC fitted loco, there must be those amongst us who can afford to buy them out of a months wage packet the way I have seen some treated at shows, storage boxes just dropped on the floor, even kicked around under layouts.

Perhaps this is where all those "slightly damaged" ones come from that seem to populate E-bay ?

[DesertHound]

The manufacturers respond to what the market demands; but personally, I think what the market is now demanding and what the manufacturers are now producing is faintly ridiculous.

The problem is that actually, there is not "a market"; there are two distinct markets for the same products, and it is impossible to respond to both. There are the "static display" collectors, whose demands are for ever more precise and accurate detail; and then there are the "wagons roll" modellers, who want to run realistic trains that will be viewed from a distance such that most of the detail currently being applied is too small to be appreciated in any event.

I remember when the Graham Farish Jubilee came out, the marketing director of Graham Farish at a major national exhibition (I can't remember which) putting one alongside a Peco Jubilee and inviting us to agree how much better the Graham Farish model was. I stepped back to the distance from which I had had to view the vast majority of the layouts in the exhibition and you know what? Not only were they indistinguishable at that distance, but half of the detail on the Peco locomotive would not be really discernible if it were running by at the head of a long rake of carriages.

Soooo ... the "static display" collector may be getting much more of what he wants for the enhanced price; but the "wagons roll" modeller isn't. The pendulum has swung out of equilibrium, and is now heavily in favour of the static display collector. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, I suspect your answer to that will largely depend upon whether or not you are a static display collector ...

I find this a very interesting point you raise PGN. I don't know the actual figures of those who run their locos vs those who dispkay them only, but it would be interesting to get a rough idea.

I'd suspect the static displayers tend towards more detail / accuracy, whereas those who run their models ... well, they populate the entire spectrum. There are those who aren't so bothered about detail (such as me) and there are those who are really interested in it.

I suspect the manufacturers have taken the decision that more detail is the way to go in terms of keeping up sales, which is fair enough. At the end of the day the manufacturers are companies, just like a company that manufactures cars, aeroplanes, sells you a bus ticket, repairs your boiler, and so on and so on. I wouldn't feel sorry for them  No controversy intended there, just my sentiments.

I like my Poole built models and nothing coming out of China, no matter how well detailed, will replace those. I know that's not the feeling, or demand, from the majority, however.

I suspect it's impossible for the manufacturers to please all people all if the time. I guess this discussion is had by those collecting diecast model aeroplanes me other models too.

Cheers

Dan

[D1042 Western Princess]

Manufacturer returns seem to be reported at 5-10% from model shops. But that doesn't count the plethora of models that are fixed by us or have faults that are never picked up on because they are bought by collectors who don't run them. Therefore, I'd suspect the quantity is significantly greater than 10% ultimately.

Cheers,
Alan

I can't help wondering if we British are alone in this. I mean do German, French or US modellers also return one in ten of their purchases as faulty?
I honestly can't think the average German modeller (for example) would tolerate such a situation.
Why should we British outline modellers?

[austinbob]

Manufacturer returns seem to be reported at 5-10% from model shops. But that doesn't count the plethora of models that are fixed by us or have faults that are never picked up on because they are bought by collectors who don't run them. Therefore, I'd suspect the quantity is significantly greater than 10% ultimately.

Cheers,
Alan

I can't help wondering if we British are alone in this. I mean do German, French or US modellers also return one in ten of their purchases as faulty?
I honestly can't think the average German modeller (for example) would tolerate such a situation.
Why should we British outline modellers?

Absolutely right!!