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Poll

I would probably buy a first generation EMU if it were made available by RevolutioN

AM4/304 type only (inc 305 etc)
4 (12.1%)
AM10/310 type only (inc 312)
7 (21.2%)
Either 304 type or 310 type
6 (18.2%)
I wouldn't want a 304/310 type but would buy another first gen EMU (e.g. 303)
4 (12.1%)
I would probably buy two of the above selection
8 (24.2%)
I would probably buy three or more of the above selection
4 (12.1%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Voting closed: March 09, 2015, 06:30:11 PM

Author Topic: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?  (Read 9917 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PostModN66

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Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« on: February 04, 2015, 12:01:45 PM »
So here is my pitch for Ben and Mike...

How about a first gen EMU for the WCML?

It is a real gap as we have 86s, 87s, 90s but nothing to run alongside them in BR Blue/sectorisation times.

The best choice might be a 310/312. as it had a wider area of operations than the 304.

In response to the "checklist":

Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one? 

Hmmmm... not sure, but there is at the moment no other RTR model in this category.

Would they accept a sensible price?


Lord knows!

Do you know where we could get proper drawings, or is there a real one left to laser scan to be confident of accuracy?

I believe a 312 did make it into preservation - I am assuming here that it is basically the same shape as a 310 (pardon my ignorance if not)

Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

I would guess same issues as 350, Midland Pullman etc....nothing major

Any thoughts?

Cheers  Jon  :)


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Offline Brooksy

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2015, 01:24:39 PM »
How about a first gen EMU for the WCML?

...

The best choice might be a 310/312. as it had a wider area of operations than the 304.


As a general guide it might be worth looking at the results of the MREmag 2014 wishlist poll:

http://www.mremag.com/sites/10/documents/5_2014_RBC_N.pdf

Page 6(end) and 7 have the results on EMUs and this suggests that the 304/305/308 are more popular in third place with 48 votes compared to the 310-312 in 20th place with 32 votes.

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2015, 01:51:44 PM »

 results on EMUs and this suggests that the 304/305/308 are more popular in third place with 48 votes compared to the 310-312 in 20th place with 32 votes.

Which is quite a way short of 1000 units.......   :laugh3:
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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 01:57:09 PM »
Page 6(end) and 7 have the results on EMUs and this suggests that the 304/305/308 are more popular in third place with 48 votes compared to the 310-312 in 20th place with 32 votes.

Yes - I would prefer one and I am currently building one from a kit.

A problem though is that none have been saved into preservation so I don't know about the practicality of designing it.

Cheers Jon   :)

BTW: hoping my Gresley bogies from the N Gauge shop will arrive soon!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 03:18:41 PM by PostModN66, Reason: fix formt »
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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 03:43:36 PM »
As one who was a spotter at Wolverton from the late 50's through the 60's and again, although it's outside my modelling area/era, even I would buy an AM10 especially as I 'cleared' this class and all the electric locos :D
Virtually all my trainspotting travels started off on an AM10 from Wolverton heading north or south.

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 03:44:58 PM »

 results on EMUs and this suggests that the 304/305/308 are more popular in third place with 48 votes compared to the 310-312 in 20th place with 32 votes.

Which is quite a way short of 1000 units.......   :laugh3:

Hi

Then again how many people didn't bother to vote as its too time consuming or viewed as a waste of time. I certainly didn't vote on that poll but I would be interested in a 304.

Cheers

Paul
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Offline Brooksy

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 03:56:09 PM »
Then again how many people didn't bother to vote as its too time consuming or viewed as a waste of time. I certainly didn't vote on that poll but I would be interested in a 304.

That's only important if the views of those who consider it a waste of time are different to those that don't. Why don't you start a poll for those people that consider a polls a waste of time and see what they think?  ;)

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 03:58:04 PM »
Then again how many people didn't bother to vote as its too time consuming or viewed as a waste of time. I certainly didn't vote on that poll but I would be interested in a 304.

That's only important if the views of those who consider it a waste of time are different to those that don't. Why don't you start a poll for those people that consider a polls a waste of time and see what they think?  ;)

Hi

You're completely missing the point of my post.

Cheers

Paul
Procrastination - The Thief of Time.

Offline Zunnan

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 04:25:41 PM »
I'd be in for a few 304's of both window patterns, and a 308/2. I think I even said to Ben at Warley that I'd string up wires through Bournville if a Dinosaur was ever produced.

The 304 family has a good scope for variation, certainly more so than the 310/312 (I'd also be in for a 310). The 304s took the Midland lines, the 305s and 308s were Great Eastern running out of Liverpool Street and London Tilsbury (308/2 if I recall) though in later life could be seen in the Manchester area, and in my diary from school after the 1991 electrification of the Birmingham Cross City line all three classes operated on the route for a period. There is also the opportunity to produce the class 504 Bury units.

The main difficulty with them is that a 3 car unit needs 3 different body toolings, 4 car needs 4. To cover the 304 alone needs 8 body toolings, 4 for the first batch which had narrow windows, 4 for the second batch which had larger windows. If I recall the 305 had the same window arrangement as the second batch 304. The 308 had the narrower windows of the first batch 304 but I think the seating arrangements were different which resulted in a different window layout. Between the three classes there are at least 10 body tools needed that I can think of, off the top of my head...and thats before I even think about the 504, which has a slightly different cab front accomodating a third window located where the destination blind is on the AC units.

The 310/312 is a much simpler prospect needing 4 body tools, plus having to deal with the curved windscreen to model the early days units. Even though I'd much rather see a 304, I think these Mk2 units are a much simpler prospect.
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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 05:18:08 PM »
I know absolutely nothing about these fellas, but if it comes to the crunch I'd certainly buy one. They look quite nice. Who knows I might even become a Revolution Trains Collector!

Offline Ben A

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 07:30:51 PM »

Hello all,

Jon - thanks for starting the thread.

From the responses so far it does seem as though the AM10 is the obvious starting point - as Zunnan points out the 30X series just seem to have too many idiosyncracies to be feasible.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily read too much into polls.  The Pendolino poll on this forum only has, from memory, around 35 people saying they want one, and we all know what's happened there...

cheers

Ben A.



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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 08:50:08 PM »
Hi Gents,

I would be in for a couple maybe 3 of the class 304s if they were in the offering I have many a childhood memory of using them to get to Manchester from Sale for my holidays to Barry Island  :D

Although a big issue is there are none for laser scanning which makes it an issue! As for other first gen EMUs how many sets are still about and in one piece? Unlike the Pendolino or modern EMUs they differ in each car so a complete train would be needed to be scanned!

I am not rubbishing the plans and like I say offer me a 304 and I am yours! But unless there are complete examples about then costs are going to rise due to higher R&D and people have to be prepared for that reality.

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 08:55:19 PM »
I would buy a 30x/31x emu (variation thereof!) if it was put forward on revolution trains.

Just saying.  :-X

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 09:17:33 PM »
A 309 in maroon would be very nice!

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2015, 09:33:29 PM »
I have been thinking about how to answer the difficult question "would they be prepared to pay a reasonable price".  This is tricky...but I'll stick my neck out;

I did a quick analysis of prices of MUs vs. number of carriages, using the BP, BB, 350, Voyager, 4CEP and 3 and 2 car 170s with prices from Hattons.



What this seems to say is that for a standard commercial product the price is about £60 for the motorised unit and £36 for each unpowered carriage.  (Incidentally using this formula the Pendo is a fabulous bargain!)

This would put a four car unit at about £170, but we would expect to pay a premium for these niche products - so let me suggest a 1/3 uplift to roughly £225.  I would certainly buy a couple at this price, but what do you reckon?   And Mike or Ben, correct me if I'm way off the mark!

Cheers

Jon  :)
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