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Poll

I would probably buy a first generation EMU if it were made available by RevolutioN

AM4/304 type only (inc 305 etc)
4 (12.1%)
AM10/310 type only (inc 312)
7 (21.2%)
Either 304 type or 310 type
6 (18.2%)
I wouldn't want a 304/310 type but would buy another first gen EMU (e.g. 303)
4 (12.1%)
I would probably buy two of the above selection
8 (24.2%)
I would probably buy three or more of the above selection
4 (12.1%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Voting closed: March 09, 2015, 06:30:11 PM

Author Topic: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?  (Read 9933 times)

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ScottyStitch

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2015, 09:55:21 PM »
I have been thinking about how to answer the difficult question "would they be prepared to pay a reasonable price".  This is tricky...but I'll stick my neck out;

I did a quick analysis of prices of MUs vs. number of carriages, using the BP, BB, 350, Voyager, 4CEP and 3 and 2 car 170s with prices from Hattons.



What this seems to say is that for a standard commercial product the price is about £60 for the motorised unit and £36 for each unpowered carriage.  (Incidentally using this formula the Pendo is a fabulous bargain!)

This would put a four car unit at about £170, but we would expect to pay a premium for these niche products - so let me suggest a 1/3 uplift to roughly £225.  I would certainly buy a couple at this price, but what do you reckon?   And Mike or Ben, correct me if I'm way off the mark!

Cheers

Jon  :)


Interesting. That would tie in with the suggested RRP of an 11 car Pendolino. Using your prices, it would be £444, not a kick in the backside off the £450-£460 suggested during the Kickstarter campaign......?


Offline Ben A

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2015, 10:24:02 PM »

Hi Jon,

That seems like a pretty fair analysis to me, but realistically each deal would probably be different; and there are other variables - for example one bargaining chip we have to keep the price down is that we give the tooling to the manufacturer afterwards, as neither Mike or I are interested in actually becoming manufacturers.

And, of course, it depends on the manufacturer too, and their own costs and needs.  For example, as I said at the time Rapido offered us an amazing deal on the Pendo because by happy coincidence at the time they were looking to get into British N and the Kickstarter seemed like an easy "win."

cheers

Ben A.



Offline Karhedron

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2015, 02:53:55 PM »
Another factor that affects price is whether each vehicle is unique or if there are multiples of the same type. The Blue Pullman does well here as it is only 3 unique vehicles with 2 of each making up a 6-car train.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 03:22:18 PM »
This point goes against the 310/312 as all 3 or 4 cars in each unit are unique, the same goes for the 30x units. It is the same case for the class 101 and 108 DMUs, but then first gen DMUs are very poorly represented too. I'd give as much to see a class 115/116/117 produced as a class 304 to be honest. But like the 30x units the differences are subtle and no class of unit really has common vehicles, even the intermediate trailers have differences in window layout.
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ScottyStitch

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2015, 03:29:50 PM »
This point goes against the 310/312 as all 3 or 4 cars in each unit are unique, the same goes for the 30x units. It is the same case for the class 101 and 108 DMUs, but then first gen DMUs are very poorly represented too. I'd give as much to see a class 115/116/117 produced as a class 304 to be honest. But like the 30x units the differences are subtle and no class of unit really has common vehicles, even the intermediate trailers have differences in window layout.

So what are the differences between the 115, 116, 117?

Offline Ian Morton

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2015, 03:32:06 PM »
I know it wouldn't be 'state of the art' but if the 30x was done as clear shells with vinyl overlays it could probably accomodate all the different flavours and only need 3 unique bodyshells.

It would still be streets ahead of trying to build one any other way.

I want three please!

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 04:02:04 PM »
Different window layouts is not necessarily the end of the world.

I'd be interested in other people's views but I think there can be a place in N for either window inlays or printed sides (on the assumption that both are done well and are appropriate for the prototype).

For example, Dapol's Mk3s should be significantly better than the Farish ones but they are spoilt by glazing which is frankly horrible (as well as a questionable body/roof shape). I know that might be controversial but a Mk3 is pretty flush glazed!

Similarly for window inlays provided the join between the inlay and body can be reasonably well disguised then that could be a possibility.

Separate glazing can be better (and makes repaints so much easier if it comes out OK!), but done badly it is no better than printed detail or inlays (IMHO!).  As I said, if my views are way out of kilter with everyone else then I'll be quiet!

Cheers, Mike



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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2015, 04:08:23 PM »
What about the IEP (Inter City Express Programme)(Class 800/1)? The first one is now on the high seas heading for the UK. For those with East Coast &/or Great Western layouts.
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Offline dodger

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2015, 04:10:13 PM »


So what are the differences between the 115, 116, 117?

Apart from minor differences the major differences are:

Class 115

4 vehicles, two identical power cars, but different power equipment and smaller  brake compartment than class 116 or 117. Both trailer are different, one has toilet, but much is similar.

Class 116/117

Only one power car has brake compartment. Minor differences between 116 and 117 power cars, mostly destination and route indicator panels and power equipment.

The front 2/3rds of the DMBS and DMS are identical. Much of the body is identical to the class 121/122 produced by Dapol. The Dapol chassis would be suitable.

Class 116 TC or TS are virtually identical externally, but differ internally. Very similar to class 115 TS. Class 117 TC is very similar to Class 115 TC externally but varies internally.

As an addition the class 118 is identical to the class 117 apart from the top of the route indication box.

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2015, 04:14:39 PM »
Folks

I know the question about 115/116/117 etc was asked on this thread, but it is probably only fair to set up a new thread so that things don't get mixed up (or lost!).

Cheers, Mike



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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2015, 04:19:47 PM »
I'd be interested in other people's views but I think there can be a place in N for either window inlays or printed sides (on the assumption that both are done well and are appropriate for the prototype).

Hi Mike,

Printed would be fine for me; I am not sure what you mean by "window inlays" but I am guessing that it was done to a standard that satisfied you and Ben then it would be fine for me.

My priorities are that the overall shape is spot on and that it is crisply moulded with no obvious faults like lines between mouldings, and that the livery is right and neatly printed.  And that it runs really well...and maybe no split gears.  (Personally I can live with some inexactitudes in window layouts and detail.)

Cheers  Jon  :)
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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2015, 04:59:51 PM »
Different window layouts is not necessarily the end of the world.

I'd be interested in other people's views but I think there can be a place in N for either window inlays or printed sides (on the assumption that both are done well and are appropriate for the prototype).

For example, Dapol's Mk3s should be significantly better than the Farish ones but they are spoilt by glazing which is frankly horrible (as well as a questionable body/roof shape). I know that might be controversial but a Mk3 is pretty flush glazed.

Cheers, Mike

I think there is definitely a place for printed glazing provided that it is sufficiently opaque to prevent see through/ light leakage on the printed bits and at joints. Looking at a number of ribbon glazed vehicles over the past few days I think it would be a major engineering challenge to make them look convincing in any other way. I can see this issue arising with the Pendolino which really is absolutely flush glazed.

Some of the Mk1 and Mk 2 derived multiple units do have more of a texture about the windows being set back from the sides, as Ian Morton says somewhere in this topic, where the depth of a vinyl printed side would be about right.

I have produced coach sides 5 thou thick with half etched window frames set back by 2.5 thou from the bodyside - so about 0.35 inch in full size terms - with the glazing another scale 0.35 inch behind the front face of the frame. That just about looks OK, but anymore and the inset of the glazing looks too much.
Mike

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ScottyStitch

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2015, 05:52:52 PM »
Folks

I know the question about 115/116/117 etc was asked on this thread, but it is probably only fair to set up a new thread so that things don't get mixed up (or lost!).

Cheers, Mike

Apologies, my fault. As you were  :sorrysign:


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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2015, 04:34:00 PM »
I would support and buy a 310! They were trains I travelled on in my childhood and were a good looking design. They got about a bit after they left the WCML and would support at least 3 livery variations. (BR blue /grey, NSE and a Provincial Railways type variation for the West Midlands based units eventually IIRC). There were some gangway variations before and after refurbishment and I think they ended up as 3 car units to aid acceleration like a lot of DMUs did. The 312s differed in technical equipment but I don't remember them differing visually, although I'd stand to be corrected.

The 304 family and the like also got about a lot in their various guises! And ended up in the West Midlands too as 3 cars. Drivers remember them for being fast but severely under braked once the trailer car was removed! Lots of livery variations but from the above posts more difficult to model accurately, although I wonder if anyone would notice the window anomalies in this case?

A web search seems to suggest a 307 BDTBSO and a 308 BDTSO is preserved, and two vehicles of a 312 792', a TSO and a DTCO, leaving the motor coach MBSO and Brake BDTSO missing for scanning for a 312 and the lions share of 30x vehicles too. 😞

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - a first gen overhead EMU?
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2015, 04:41:06 PM »
I admit that while it hardly figures in my mainstream interests I could be interested in  a 310, esp if in plain BR Blue.  I travelled on these when I started commuting from Watford Jcn to Easton in 1975.  They were nice units to ride in.  They were, then, corridor connected between coaches 1/2, and 3/4, but not through the whole unit.  There was a toilet in each pair.  The characteristic curved windscreen would, I guess, be a challenge to model.  But to have one alongside my Farish 350, as the final unit I travelled on before retirement , would be fun.

 

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