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Author Topic: Introducing Revolution Trains  (Read 32481 times)

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Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2015, 11:11:24 AM »
Having had working catenary from Tri-ang when I was a yoof, and having lived in Wolverton during the 50's/60's it has often been in the back of my mind to build a layout based on Wolverton and for that I'd need AL1-6 locos and AM10 EMUs in their original liveries. Bring 'em on!
This from a confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool steam & diesel modeller :doh:

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #151 on: February 09, 2015, 11:24:18 AM »
The other conclusion could be that there aren't enough electric modellers to justify the big manufacturers committing to large production run. Maybe they don't sell well because they don't sell well?
Well, that is the more pessimistic conclusion. Unfortunately it seems to be the one that the manufacturers have drawn.

To be fair, I cannot blame them. They want to sell models and make a ROI for each item they produce. How many different types of electric train do they have to produce in order to shift an entire range in acceptable quantities?

You could argue that the WCML from the 70s to the noughties is fairly modellable as we have 86s, 87s, 90s, Mk2 and Mk3 stock as well as DVTs. The lack of suitable EMUs hampers suburban operations but there are plenty of places where you could get away with just expresses. The Lune Gorge would be great for modelling a railway in a landscape without the need for EMUs and I am sure there are others. Or use Sprinters as stand-ins since they work many parts of the WCML outside the south-east.

I have only seen a few layout attempt to model this (Kinlet Wharf springs to mind as an excellent example). Sure some of the items are not to modern standards but the scene is doable. Does the fact that people do not model it mean there is less appetite than some of us assume?

It is a shame we do not have an N gauge equivalent of Bratchell. They produce a big range of Mk3 EMUs in 00 gauge which fill in a lot of the suburban gaps. They charge a bit of a premium for niche RTR models but they do not seem to have problem with sales.

Their 321 is around £300 if you go for the fully finished version in NSE livery. A Bachmann can be had for less than £200 for the same number of carriages. Of course they have had the time to build up their range over the years for almost the full family of Mk3 units.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Ben A

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #152 on: February 09, 2015, 11:43:22 AM »
But surely - if there was a market the large mfrs would be in it ... that's what they are there for - to make money, and an unexploited market is a treasure chest ...  That they tried & pulled out indicates the market you see is far smaller than they require.

But we seem to be in a circular argument discussion that is going nowhere fast (like the subject of the discussion  ::)).

 Hi Mike,

That's exactly the point of Revolution Trains.   We are not in it for the big ticket items - the manufacturers can take care of these themselves and more power to them - but the items where the market isn't clear.

We are offering the  market a voice: we're saying look at the models we're considering and if you want them say so.  Then, if enough people feel the same, we can go ahead and get it made. And if they don't, we won't.  What's changed is the internet - which can easily being people together in a way that would have been impossible before - and the arrival of smaller boutique manufacturers like Rapido who are willing to work with us, rather than just saying "we know best."

And as Matthew has identified, we want to make this an enjoyable experience for our punters and sponsors. In 6 months or so, when hopefully there'll be 3 or 4 items to choose from, when you go to our site you'll be able to follow their progress. One might be languishing on 12% funded, another roaring ahead on 86%. You'll know that once it reaches 90% or so we will press the button and get it made. The race will be on!!

If you're a customer you'll have access to the backers-on,y development pages where you can follow production, have an input into numbers, names and CAD modifications etc etc.

And if you're a sponsor you'll have done research work, maybe accompanied us to laser scan the thing, be at the heart of making it happen and then be able to say "I did that!" If the model makes it.

I can't stress enough that I see this as a potential game changer - if, of course, enough people want to join us.

Cheers

Ben A.



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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #153 on: February 09, 2015, 11:54:05 AM »
Pretty much spot on. The best place for EMUs is probably Japan where they have been the mainstay of transportation for a long time and many of the more popular classes are available RTR. It shows there is nothing inherently wrong with EMUs, just a gap between what manufacturers currently produce and what the customers want.
In Japan it's more a case of some of the more obscure classes aren't available RTR... Mind you it's a market double the size of the UK with a much greater exposure to trains, and N is the dominant scale.

As far as OHEL goes (not much 3rd rail here apart from a very limited number of underground lines), I have yet to see actual wires modelled, most people just go for the masts. (Funnily enough it's my wife who notices I don't have any and says I should get some).

Regarding the British scene, personally my railway memories are dominated at least in part by WCML electrics, many moons ago I bought a Lima OO 87, and having got back into N recently it didn't take long for me to get a Dapol 86 (in some toothpaste livery but better than nothing ;) ) and I'm currently looking for a GraFar 87 as there's no better alternative.

One thing I do wonder about electrics is their lack of "preservability" and nostalgia value - unless I'm mistaken there are no preserved electrified lines, and you don't see 87s zipping about on railtours in the same way you see Deltics, which leads me to think their memory fades quicker, leading to less demand than there might otherwise be. (Though the AC Locomotive Group is of course doing sterling work).

I have to admit that the Pendolino doesn't spark my interest much - not because it's electric, but because they're pretty much unknowns to me. I'm happy the project is going ahead, of course, and I'm very sure that whatever RevolutioN projects go ahead, there'll be something I'll want even if not my preferred choice.
Takahachikawa - Japanese and other trains

Birmingham Knotmore Street - (ex) GWR mainline through the Midlands

ScottyStitch

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #154 on: February 09, 2015, 11:59:55 AM »
The other conclusion could be that there aren't enough electric modellers to justify the big manufacturers committing to large production run. Maybe they don't sell well because they don't sell well?
Well, that is the more pessimistic conclusion. Unfortunately it seems to be the one that the manufacturers have drawn.

It is perhaps pessimistic, and to be fair was only a suggestion. I don't know if it is the case or not. But I don't think it can be dissmissed as a possibility.

Let's play devil's advocate for a minute and imagine we went to Farish and said give us some southern region emu stock please, it's a sadly neglected area, and we really want it. They make only a 4CEP, because the costs involved mean they can't or are unwilling to plough money into a fleet of different units all at the same time. And when they do, we don't buy it because either:

a) We say you "produced the wrong type of EMU, what were you thinking?" or We say, "but you didn't produce the 4ABC, 4XYZ and 4IDK at the same time so I'm not buying the 4CEP."

OR

b) We say "actually, it doesn't look like there were as many of us wanting these things as we thought. Sorry."

With the second scenario at least, this is where RevolutioN can come in. If there is a smaller market than we thought, then thats okay because as long as there is a market for 1,000, we get our train. If there is a market for 3,000 then we get our train and Farish and Dapol and DJM and Rapido et al sit up and take notice.

The flip side of that of course is, if RevolutioN/Crowdfunding can't bring an AC EMU, for instance, to market is it realistic to assume that anyone can?

I hope all these electrics (and all the other serious proposals) get made, because it would be great for N gauge. But we have to accept, that if there isn't a demand for 1,000, there isn't the demand. No matter how much 500 of us who want one, want there to be.

Again, just my half a tanner.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 12:04:20 PM by ScottyStitch, Reason: Typos »

Offline red_death

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #155 on: February 09, 2015, 12:29:57 PM »
My personal take on this is that it is likely to be a combination of the factors mentioned and that it is not restricted to electrics but also to multiple units - there are many parts of the country where the MUs just aren't available.

The diversity of stock, minimum production runs and the size of the potential market mean that some things will just never be realistic to produce (which is why we have asked people to try and be realistic) but we can at least try to fill some of the gaps.

I'd strongly encourage anyone interested in any of the proposed projects to vote in the relevant poll - at the moment the initial expressions of interest are a bit on the thin side for any of the projects!

The initial expressions of interest (albeit on here and t'other place) for the Pendolino convinced us that it was worth asking for more detailed market research (we eventually had over 300 responses to our short survey on the Pendolino features and pricing).

Cheers, Mike

PS one final thought - one thing I noticed on some of the polls the results can be a bit hard to use if the questions being asked are not clear. I wouldn't ask for No votes - if someone is not interested then they just don't need to bother voting! I would try to make the answers as clear as possible - the most interesting things to know are specifics of what people might be interested in eg class and quantities. Be careful of including the possibility to place more than one vote (might artificially inflate the figures).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 12:36:25 PM by red_death »



Offline Karhedron

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #156 on: February 09, 2015, 12:47:10 PM »
The initial expressions of interest (albeit on here and t'other place) for the Pendolino convinced us that it was worth asking for more detailed market research (we eventually had over 300 responses to our short survey on the Pendolino features and pricing).
That is a point. Is it worth asking for expressions of interest on RMWeb as well for some of the other projects that people have suggested? As you demonstrated with the Pendolino, casting the net wide is crucial to success.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline MikeDunn

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #157 on: February 09, 2015, 12:53:09 PM »
That's exactly the point of Revolution Trains.   We are not in it for the big ticket items - the manufacturers can take care of these themselves and more power to them - but the items where the market isn't clear.
LOL, I'll let you off taking my post to do a sales pitch  ::)

Yes, I appreciate this is where you guys come in - that's why I was limiting my post to the large mfrs ...

Re sparkies - not my area at all in this scale, but I do wish you well ... as I've posted elsewhere, do a neglected LNER & I'll be in - maybe several times  :thumbsup:

Mike

Offline red_death

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #158 on: February 09, 2015, 12:56:20 PM »
It is a difficult one!

For the Pendolino there is no doubt that the initial thread/poll suffered a bit on here as a lot of the discussion was on RMweb first.  For these threads the majority of the interest and research has been on here.

Clearly at a certain point it is worth updating as many forums as possible on the grounds that you pick up more occasional visitors and particularly on the non-scale specific forums you stand more chance of drawing in non-N gauge modellers (which is also part of what we hope to do in making N gauge more attractive!).

Cheers, Mike



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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #159 on: February 09, 2015, 01:07:37 PM »


Clearly at a certain point it is worth updating as many forums as possible on the grounds that you pick up more occasional visitors and particularly on the non-scale specific forums you stand more chance of drawing in non-N gauge modellers (which is also part of what we hope to do in making N gauge more attractive!).

Cheers, Mike

Maybe the time to do that is when you have selected the next project or projects that you think has the best chance of proceeding, and presented it as such on your website. Because I suppose then, and only then, will the expressions of interest actually matter in the grand scheme of things?

If NGF has the critical mass of N modellers, it might be best to formulate the ideas here and then take it forward to the rest of the world........

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #160 on: February 09, 2015, 01:14:27 PM »


Clearly at a certain point it is worth updating as many forums as possible on the grounds that you pick up more occasional visitors and particularly on the non-scale specific forums you stand more chance of drawing in non-N gauge modellers (which is also part of what we hope to do in making N gauge more attractive!).

Cheers, Mike

Maybe the time to do that is when you have selected the next project or projects that you think has the best chance of proceeding, and presented it as such on your website. Because I suppose then, and only then, will the expressions of interest actually matter in the grand scheme of things?

If NGF has the critical mass of N modellers, it might be best to formulate the ideas here and then take it forward to the rest of the world........

Yes I agree.   In the meantime what is to be lost be pursuing the ideas using the energy and skills of forum members.  The worst that can happen is nothing - that you have spent some time researching a prototype...which I reckon most people would find enjoyable.

I think some of the Steve Jobs' approach is useful here - we can debate the existence of a market or we can create the market by making compelling products available.  As much as I wanted it, I really didn't think the Pendo would make it, and look where we are, thanks to Ben and Mike's commitment!

Cheers  Jon  :)
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Offline Ben A

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #161 on: February 09, 2015, 01:49:10 PM »
That's exactly the point of Revolution Trains.   We are not in it for the big ticket items - the manufacturers can take care of these themselves and more power to them - but the items where the market isn't clear.
LOL, I'll let you off taking my post to do a sales pitch  ::)

Yes, I appreciate this is where you guys come in - that's why I was limiting my post to the large mfrs ...

Mike

Hi Mike,

Err there isn't a sales pitch because there's nothing to sell!  The point is we've created a place where people can indicate what they want and, if enough feel the same, we can make it happen.  It's all free of charge, except of course for what you pay for the models.

There'll be some projects that Mike and/or I want, and some we don't, but what we want should become irrelevant as we move to a position where others come in to sponsor projects and the community can choose to join them or not.

So we aren't going to do a neglected LNER item but you might!

At least, that's the idea.

Cheers

Ben A,



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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #162 on: February 09, 2015, 02:03:31 PM »


I think some of the Steve Jobs' approach is useful here - we can debate the existence of a market or we can create the market by making compelling products available.  As much as I wanted it, I really didn't think the Pendo would make it, and look where we are, thanks to Ben and Mike's commitment!

Cheers  Jon  :)

I think the problem with that is that there isn't a compelling product available as yet, that won't happen until RevolutioN's next project is announced.  I'm not sure we should be trying to create a market, rather we should be seeing what the market is?

I may have both of those wrong, but that's the way it would seem this set up is about.........

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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #163 on: February 09, 2015, 02:05:31 PM »


I think some of the Steve Jobs' approach is useful here - we can debate the existence of a market or we can create the market by making compelling products available.  As much as I wanted it, I really didn't think the Pendo would make it, and look where we are, thanks to Ben and Mike's commitment!

Cheers  Jon  :)

I think the problem with that is that there isn't a compelling product available as yet, that won't happen until RevolutioN's next project is announced.  I'm not sure we should be trying to create a market, rather we should be seeing what the market is?

I may have both of those wrong, but that's the way it would seem this set up is about.........

Is your point that the Pendo isn't compelling, or just that it isn't available?

Cheers  Jon  :)
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Re: Introducing Revolution Trains
« Reply #164 on: February 09, 2015, 02:19:54 PM »


I think some of the Steve Jobs' approach is useful here - we can debate the existence of a market or we can create the market by making compelling products available.  As much as I wanted it, I really didn't think the Pendo would make it, and look where we are, thanks to Ben and Mike's commitment!

Cheers  Jon  :)

I think the problem with that is that there isn't a compelling product available as yet, that won't happen until RevolutioN's next project is announced.  I'm not sure we should be trying to create a market, rather we should be seeing what the market is?

I may have both of those wrong, but that's the way it would seem this set up is about.........

Is your point that the Pendo isn't compelling, or just that it isn't available?

Cheers  Jon  :)

The pendo is available to buy (albeit with delivery not for a while), orders are being taken as we speak and have been since the 18th(?) January.

There is no other product as yet that RevolutioN are offering, or asking for expressions of interest. Compelling or otherwise. That's what I mean by not available.

My understanding is that when RevolutioN sift through all the pitches on here, and their own ideas, they will firm up which one or two they will offer up for expressions of interest. Presumably the ones they gauge most likely to reach a thousand units, the ones that are perhaps the easiest to produce (drawings, scans, livery information, etc.)

At the minute RevolutioN aren't offering to make anythingat all.

When they are up on the website, I would say that is when we will see if a potential product is compelling. That is when they are offering a product. And that's when you're looking to spread the word to the wider world and non-N-specific areas.

As always just my friendly half a tanner




 

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