Layout for shows

[Geoff]

First of all I would never show a layout I do feel I am not worthy, but after going to a local show I was disappointed with over half of the layouts at the show, I just felt that they were not good enough, come on I paid good money to see good layouts and to be truthful disapointed does not come into it, there were a lot of layouts that were tired seen there day not looking fresh or no appeal, layouts with the loco's coming to a halt where the track was dirty or the loco had dirty wheels, even layouts with space ships on them and elephants in back gardens oh come on what is up with some modellers is this what the genral public wants, if it was not for one layout I would of demanded my money back.

Am I expecting to much I think not, there was 3 layouts for sale oh come on sell it after the show on ebay or something do not sell it at a show with a white piece of paper saying for sale, and yes thes were tired layouts.

Oh boy talk about winging but do I do right to winge, I will let you decide.

[Roy L S]

First of all I would never show a layout I do feel I am not worthy, but after going to a local show I was disappointed with over half of the layouts at the show, I just felt that they were not good enough, come on I paid good money to see good layouts and to be truthful disapointed does not come into it, there were a lot of layouts that were tired seen there day not looking fresh or no appeal, layouts with the loco's coming to a halt where the track was dirty or the loco had dirty wheels, even layouts with space ships on them and elephants in back gardens oh come on what is up with some modellers is this what the genral public wants, if it was not for one layout I would of demanded my money back.

Am I expecting to much I think not, there was 3 layouts for sale oh come on sell it after the show on ebay or something do not sell it at a show with a white piece of paper saying for sale, and yes thes were tired layouts.

Oh boy talk about winging but do I do right to winge, I will let you decide.

Hi Geoff

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone has different likes and expectations of what is acceptable.

With an organiser's "hat" on, I do have some sympathy, it is incredibly difficult to source sufficient high quality layouts each year and the further they have to come the greater the cost. For smaller shows with restricted budgets this will be a major factor.

Having said that though, I do agree that there should be a reasonable expectation that layouts look and run acceptably. Sure "gremlins" will always hit at the most inconvenient times, but a layout should in my view be tidied tested and confirmed as operational before any show where it is reasonable to do so (some are too big to set up).

It's not always that easy though. I took one of my layouts to Fareham recently and in the exceptional natural light at the venue my hand painted back-scene was wickedly exposed and if I am honest looked unacceptable, whereas at the two previous shows I had attended and even under spotlights at home it looked pretty much ok. I will do some remedial work before it's next show (next year) but had I realised I would have done something about it before the show, and it will certainly not be taken out again "as is".

Regards

Roy

[MikeDunn]

Well, this was a local show, yes ?  You didn't pay much to get in, no ?  You saw model rail, yes ?  Then you got your money's worth ...  Were it like the shows in my neck of the woods, then I feel the same way (bar not being worth the money).

Should better layouts be there ?  Well - that depends, doesn't it ...

Layouts have gotten better in leaps & bounds over the past few years, with more & better materials available.  But the more elderly layouts (and possibly the more elderly modellers) won't use these.  As to some being on sale - well, maybe someone who attends will want a ready-to-play layout that may need sprucing up ... it gets them playing instead of having the hard slog from nothing ...

And dare I ask - if this was a very local show to you, where was your layout ?  Why didn't you exhibit ?  You say "not worthy" - well, if everyone no matter how good or poor their skills are feels the same way - in a few years you won't have a local show ...

My skills aren't great (I'm working on my very first layout after all), but I do hope to have it in the local shows when I get it complete - if for no other reason than to help encourage other newbies into starting a layout & maybe showing it ...

Problems with running always happens - at Planes&Trains today, the tram layout was fine - until they added a third tram, at which point things went awry for them ...  Having a chat with the lady (while her hubby tried his best) it seems that it was all fine at home ...   Sod's Law at it's best.

[PostModN66]

I can empathise with this Geoff.   I have a rule of thumb that if I see three layouts at a show that interest me that is value for money.  But I would rarely invite friends to shows because sometimes I feel it will not impress them.

But I think that it reflects the economics of the hobby.  No-one is making large sums of money.  Exhibitors build the layout at their own expense, give up their time for free, and will generally make a cash loss on exhibiting if you count hidden costs like a meal on the way home, PAT testing and repairing wear and tear on the day.

The situation is made worse in that people have such diverse views on what makes a layout "good".  I don't generally find much interest in steam era layouts, so that strikes out the majority for me.  Some people like a realistic scene, others like exact prototypical correctness, or scratch-built rolling stock, others like good presentation or cameos.  Satisfying all these criteria is a hard ask for someone with a full time job and maybe other hobbies!

And gremlins are so hard to address - at a recent show my point motors didn't work, which I am pretty sure is because the mains voltage was not the full 240v!

A final point is that the hobby is very inclusive; we generally encourage beginners (rightly) and when someone tries to raise the bar by setting standards e.g. for inclusion in magazines, we pillory them with cries of "elitism" - so it is hard to see how we can have our cake and eat it!

I have stopped worrying too much about it - I will keep exhibiting, try to produce a standard such that, say 30% of people will like (as my layouts are post-privatisation anything more is unlikely) and attend to critical feedback to improve things where feasible.

Cheers  Jon   

[Geoff]

Maybe I am asking for to much but when you see a layout with nothing running on it then I think what is the point, we all have different opinions and one layout will stick in my head for a long time that was outstanding and more than worthy being at a National Show.

I do appreciate what folks do to take there models to shows petrol and time away from there families but when they get home after a show do they put it in the garage and forget about it until the next show.

Personaly if I ever did show a model it would be tip top every time I took it, This is why I would not exhibit things would be on my mind all the time.

There was one young man and he was shaking he was a nervous wreck, a loco had come off the track and I thought to myself if he lets go of the loco it will be on the other side of the room.

[Geoff]

Hi Geoff, I think I can guess the layout of your "Space ship" & "Elephant" comment by your location....I think the layout is very good..........., however you have to remember a lot of children pass through these shows and I'm sure they get moved about so the kids have something different to look at each time they pass...it makes it a little more interesting for them, granted for the "More Mature" modeller they are probably not what you want to see, but it's up to the layout owner to decide what they show...

Yep I understand with kids there and maybe there was a sheet for them to find certain things, there was also a layout for children to sit down and control that I thought was a nice touch, there has to be a happy medium and I do not think the show was any near as good as last year..

[Agrippa]

You paid your dosh and were not impressed so you're entitled to have a gripe.
It's like people who say you shouldn't boo your team , when you've stumped
up your cash it's your choice.

Impressions of layouts are very subjective, a bit of fun having an elephant and
spaceship, if they were on a Thomas type layout for kids.

If not it would be stretching Rule 1 a fair bit.

[Geoff]

The previous year Hornby turned up with there E-Link to promote it, that was a super touch, one guy sat me down and explained the E Link and how it worked, something to get your teeth into without buying it lol.

I do think local shows need to get an interest to draw people in, on the web site it said there were people showing how to do certain things like brass work but when I went over and took an interest the guy did not want to know.

Oh boy its not the 13th is it lol.

[Ben A]

Geoff,

I think you've identified a really interesting dilemma.

If we can accept that a model railway show, at its most base form, is a means of entertainment produced by amateurs that costs something between £5 and £10 to attend then it might be helpful to compare with other similar activities.

Football matches or rock concerts don't count because they are professionalised. But what about amateur dramatics, or country shows, pony club events?  How consistently "good" are those events?  Perhaps others can think of comparable activities?

When it comes to running our layout at shows, i like to at least try to run accurate trains and stock but I know I am considered a bit of a stickler within the club!  Luckily they indulge me!!

Cheers

Ben A.

[PostModN66]

But what about amateur dramatics, or country shows, pony club events?  How consistently "good" are those events?  Perhaps others can think of comparable activities?

One example that springs to mind is the Women's Institute.  I have on occasion been to one of their local craft shows, and there is an eye-wateringly high standard of craftsman(woman?)ship.  All the entries are judged, and every small fault is ruthlessly exposed on a little card that goes with each exhibit!

I think we would find that a bit scary in the model railway world!

Of course, they only have to make the items, which are generally small things; they don't stand and operate them all day.

Cheers

Jon   

[NeMo]

I can empathise with this Geoff.   I have a rule of thumb that if I see three layouts at a show that interest me that is value for money.  But I would rarely invite friends to shows because sometimes I feel it will not impress them.

The last show I went to, I went with my wife. We didn't stay too long (don't want to push my luck!) but what struck me was the layout she spent time watching wasn't the one that particularly interested me. She was entertained by the operator who was very chatty and willing to point out all sorts of hidden details and techniques. Being hand-crafty, she could appreciate that.

I've also found that visitors are often quite interested in model railways once they see the trains move. Doubly so when the trains are moving all the time, round and round. End to ends just aren't that immediately engaging, I don't think. But let someone "drive a train" for a bit, and they're pretty happy!

I have stopped worrying too much about it - I will keep exhibiting, try to produce a standard such that, say 30% of people will like (as my layouts are post-privatisation anything more is unlikely) and attend to critical feedback to improve things where feasible.

I think you're underselling yourself here. Your layouts surely appeal to more than 30% of the potential audience! They're inspiring. For me, Lofthole in particular is the perfect argument against those who say using Kato Unitrack means you're stuck with building unrealistic/toy train sets.

Cheers, NeMo

[PostModN66]

I think you're underselling yourself here. Your layouts surely appeal to more than 30% of the potential audience!

You're extremely kind NeMo -  - I just mean that I accept that if N Gauge or "Postmodern" layouts just aren't some people's thing, I/we all have to accept that and not take it personally.  If more than the 30% like them that's great!!

Your points about being chatty and allowing some audience participation are interesting - I am pretty chatty, I operate from the front, and encourage people to join in.  Some people like the idea - others look horrified.  I now choose my victims more carefully!

On the topic of end-to-ends vs. "roundies" - I think you can have the best of both worlds with the right plan.  Both of mine allow shunting to go on at the same time as trains circulate, and that does seem to curry favour with both serious and less serious enthusiasts.

Cheers

Jon 

[silverfox]

This is a fascinating thread and one that I can identify with as I have produced unconventional layouts that are bound to receive mixed reactions.

The layout that I have shown on the most numerous occasions is Seaton Dunny, Upper Flushing, Basinstoke and next weekend for the first time Pooh Corner, or as you guys know it 'the train on a toilet'.......now when I posted footage of it on the Videos thread I deliberately titled it "Not one for the purists" and that was for good reason, it does not appeal to some of what we tend to refer to as 'Rivet counters' but in my experience the general public really like the novelty of the layout and have voted it as a best in show on a couple of occasions much to my amazement and delight I might add.

There are also a good number of railway modellers at the shows that appreciate the modelling and applaud what I've created but perhaps not buy into the concept, there are also a few that won't even look at it because of what it is.

When I posted Seaton Dunny on youtube for the first time, someone posted the comment "this is why N gauge is treated as a joke and then advised me to "get a life" !!!!!??

I guess where I'm going with this is that you won't please all of the people all of the time, but I think there should always be room in a show for something different but I do agree that whatever you show should at least look finished, I've seen a few works in progress at some big shows, Brighton for one, that are being displayed long before they should be given a public airing.

Regards all

Jason (modelling maverick)

[PLD]

Speaking as a regular exhibitor and involved with organising various shows, you have every right to expect value for money and layout of a certain standard, though what level it is reasonable to expect will naturally vary with the cost and size of the show...

The measures I tend to use to judge a layout are (in order):
1 Operational reliability
2 Overall Presentation (tidiness of appearance, lighting etc)
3 General Design (prototypical elements, no unfeasable geology or impractical track arangements, is the scenery part of the package not just an afterthought to fill in the gaps between tracks)
4 Modeling quality and finesse.

whatever you show should at least look finished, I've seen a few works in progress at some big shows, Brighton for one, that are being displayed long before they should be given a public airing.

I have no issue with one (or maybe two in larger shows) "Work in Progress" - they can be an effective way to demonstrate what is under the skin of a layout, BUT bill them as such - dont claim it as a layout to bump up the numbers, and I would like to see  the same layout a couple of years later finished (not the same thing year after year as a 'spot the difference' quiz!)

[Luke Piewalker]

I'm willing to give some leeway subject to the size of the show, I suppose we just have to accept that some shows are the equivalent of a coffee morning fundraiser. In those cases as long as there are a couple of layouts it's the trade stands that can make or break the occasion. If it's a bigger show I expect to be more wowed, but I suppose where the crossover point is will be different for different people. Often it's just the odd details that catch my attention rather than a layout as a whole, not averse to a work in progress sort of arrangement. I do like to see things moving though... that's my biggest complaint, sure it may be prototypical working to a timetable but I don't really want to stand here for five minutes watching a 66 sat at a signal while nothing happens...
A nice thing I saw was Glenrothes MRC's Blackwood Junction, as it has trams in the town scene at the back, so there is always something moving back there if not at the front!