My complete frustration with Atlas and Kato pulling power!

[scottmitchell74]

***Mods - Don't know if this should post somewhere else***

I mentioned this on another forum, but I wanted to share/question/vent here as well, because you guys have been a great group to bounce things off of...

I've had 4 or 5 really nice smooth running Atlas' that couldn't pull more than 5 cars up my admittedly steep Woodland Scenics 4% grade. So, I've been targeting Kato which has the reputation of being super-performers. I've had an F3 that ran jerkily, and now I currently have a Kato SD40 that is very heavy and...stalls out with just 7 cars!!!  I'm adding video so you guys can see what I'm talking about and discuss.

#1 - An old Life Like GP18 casually pulling 13 cars (with room/effort to spare, it's done more). It handles this with very low speed, and of course with more power as well.


Life Like N&W N Scale GP18

#2 - A Life Like E8 also doing it easily. I've had LL PAs and E6s do the same thing. Yes, they are heavy, but so is the SD40


Life Like B&O E8

#3 - A tiny British N Gauge Union Mills 0-8-0 pulling the 13 car train


Union Mills G2 0-8-0 N Gauge

- This guy has a little hitch towards the top, but it does that with no cars - I have a "weird" track spot there where some of my engines react. I haven't figured out what's wrong and why some locos just breeze on by...

#4 - My expensive and highly regarded Kato stalling with just 7 cars (the 13 car trial was, naturally, even more pitiful)>


Kato N scale SD40 CSX

- Just dies...doesn't even come close.

#5 - Finally, a $19 cheap-o Life Like Gp38 pulling the 7 cars, with room for more (I've had it with 10-11 before).


Life Like N Scale GP38 Conrail


I get that that grade is 4% and that it's on a 9 3/4 curve (Woodland Scenics!! Oh, if I knew then what I know now), but why is it that only Life Like locos are able to pull this grade (some of them very, very casually) when the Atlas Gp9, SD60, U23, SD7 and my Kato F3 and SD40 can't? I get that my LL SW8/1200's can/will only pull 5-6 cars up that grade, but they are tiny and nearly match these Kato and Atlas locos.


Rant over, thanks for reading, and I'd love to hear what folks have to say.

On a side note, I'm utterly weary of the trial-and-error so I'm going to buy some Bullfrog Snot and try my luck with that.

[scotsoft]

Hi Scott,

If I had not seen the videos I would have had difficulty believing it.  I have had one of my Kato F3 Santa Fe locos pulling over 40 boxcars, sadly I don't have a video, without a hint of any problem.

I think you should contact Kato in the US, send them the videos and see what they say as this should not be happening with your loco.

cheers John.

[scottmitchell74]

Yeah, I brought this up once a while back on Trainboard and the issue was with Atlas' and I didn't have video. Some guys, I think, thought I was crazy or making things up. Man, I can't tell you  how frustrated I am. I'd stick with Life Like all day long if they had all the roadnames and Locos I wanted/needed, but they don't have that kind of variety.

[scotsoft]

I must admit I do like Life Like locos.  I got a set with GP38 Santa Fe powered loco, dummy loco and caboose for a silly price on eBay a couple of years ago and it is still going strong.  I do have a video of that one pulling 20 pieces of rolling stock.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNPhuj_wdv8

cheers John.

[trainsdownunder]

I agree about puzzling. All my Kato stuff pulls okay, but I admit I don't have any real inclines. I have found that the some of mine are maybe a little hesitant occasionally but generally with a clean track I have no problems with any length of train. Most of my long stock trains are also run as double or triple headers so I may well be unaware of any one loco under performing.

I agree with John's comments about contacting Kato USA

[Lawrence]

US N Scale modern loco hauling a load on British N Gauge inclined curved track may be the issue here Scott?
The  ole Life Likes would pull a 1:1 scale car they are so heavy 
Not sure if you are using set track there but the curve doesn't seem to be a smooth radius either which may cause an issue, good explanation of easements here http://www.eldoradosoft.com/easements.htm
Then again your new loco might just be knackered, might be worth sending those videos to Kato and asking for their thoughts on it.

Not criticising anything you are doing just trying to work out what the problem may be, might be worth trying another modern lightweight loco if you have access to one.
Hope you get it sorted 

[scottmitchell74]

The track is Atlas code 55. Yes, the track laying was way back in my early days and not so good, but the other engines handle it fine. When there's no load that Kato glides along smoothly.

It was mentioned elsewhere that the Kato's longer wheelbase my have something to do with it. I'm going to take everyone's suggestions and keep plugging away at the problem. Maybe two or more locos pulling might be the answer? It's just frustrating to me that cheap(er) LL can outperform Atlas and Kato, whatever the reason my be.


Also, you guys have some eagle-eyes! I can't see some of the track issues in person!  However, I didn't really know what I was doing when most of this layout went down, and still don't know much about track, track issues, electronics, etc...

My next layout will be done with tortoise-like mind-numbing care. 

Another thing that this issue has settled for me. My next layout(s) will have NO grades. Bridges and other scenics will cross over rivers and valleys cut out of foam. No grades! I just want to see my trains go round and round without any issues.

[EtchedPixels]

Look along the rails with a mirror held at about 45 degees. Very old trick for finding kinks and twists.

Alan

[ozzie Bill.]

Scott, it may be a combination of a few things. The locos that are "sticking" are the longer ones, so perhaps check the wheel gauges etc and also make sure the bogies are turning totally freely. Sorry if you have already tried these things.
the combination of longer locos, slightly out of gauge wheels, tight, slightly uneven curves and sticky bogies could just be the issue. Lots of small things.
good luck with it anyway, cheers, Bill,.

[scottmitchell74]

Scott, it may be a combination of a few things. The locos that are "sticking" are the longer ones, so perhaps check the wheel gauges etc and also make sure the bogies are turning totally freely. Sorry if you have already tried these things.
the combination of longer locos, slightly out of gauge wheels, tight, slightly uneven curves and sticky bogies could just be the issue. Lots of small things.
good luck with it anyway, cheers, Bill,.

Sounds like good advice...but for one thing... ...I don't know what is meant by wheel gauges and how to check them. Never took that into consideration.

What does one do to fix kinks/twists?

[longbridge]

Maybe checking the wheel back to back measurements and giving them a good clean might help, I have seen the very same locos triple headed pulling 90 freight wagons up an incline with zero wheel slip, pretty hard to figure this rare problem.

[ozzie Bill.]

I don't know what is meant by wheel gauges and how to check them. Never took that into consideration.
Sorry Scott. Gauge, in this case, is the distance between the wheels. You can buy, very cheaply, a measure that allows you to make sure that the wheels are the specified distance apart. The usual is the NRMA standard. The gauge is easy to use, as you place the flanges of the wheels into the gauge and then turn them to make sure a) the wheels are running true (straight up and down) and b) they are the correct distance apart. If they are too far apart, they will run ok down the straight, or even round a wider curve, but put them under pressure on an incline and then a tight curve as well and they may just be binding a bit.
Hope this helps a bit. Cheers, Bill.

[EtchedPixels]

If its twisted at an angle then pack it under one side and level it, otherwise as stiffer stock or longer wheelbase stock goes over the twist one half of one bogie will tend to rise slightly off the rails - and there goes your traction.

Kinks can just be eased straight but are usually not a big problem except if they make sharp curves to sharp.

Also look along it for any rises and dips - a long loco can lose partial rail contact if the track has humps and dips.

Of course it may just be that Union Mills and old Life-like locos rock.. I know my TPM class 60s on lifelike chassis and my Union Mills are the stand-out haulers I have.

Alan

[grumbeast]

It might not help, but I have noticed that atlas, and more so kata US locos seem to be very sensitive to anything other than perfect track, my Bendtrack group in Canada used my ALCO PA to test track work, the slightest problem and it would pop off, but if the track was good, it was exceptional.

If you have any spare track make a test incline and give them all a test with the same loads/ no loads etc

Graham

[scottmitchell74]

Of course it may just be that Union Mills and old Life-like locos rock.. I know my TPM class 60s on lifelike chassis and my Union Mills are the stand-out haulers I have.

Alan

Concerning the above quoted...I have no reason to doubt the reports on Atlas and Kato. Their reputation is likely well earned, else people wouldn't patronize those companies. But, I've wondered if some Atlas and Kato apologists (I've encountered some "brandism" elsewhere) can't stomach the idea of a cheap 'ol Life Like outperforming them. You know how some people simply buy the most expensive brand because it's the most expensive brand even when the off-brand tastes/looks/drives/wears just as well? It's crossed my mind...

Also, the bold and underlined section - that sounds very interesting. How did you make that happen, which LL chassis? Man, what a good idea. Just buy a bunch of old-school powerful LL locos on Ebay when you can and swap out other outlines. Hmmm....