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Author Topic: HST Replacement ?  (Read 1272 times)

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Offline 4x2

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HST Replacement ?
« on: August 05, 2013, 10:49:55 PM »
Just heard on BBC points west, that First will be replacing the HST in 2017.
I'm wondering if that's going to be because of electrification, or there is a plan B ?

I can't see Bristol to London electrification being finished by then, not to mention building the rolling stock....
If it's got rails... you have my full, undivided attention - Steam, diesel and electric, 'tis all good !

Mike

Offline EtchedPixels

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2013, 02:47:27 PM »
Just heard on BBC points west, that First will be replacing the HST in 2017.
I'm wondering if that's going to be because of electrification, or there is a plan B ?

I can't see Bristol to London electrification being finished by then, not to mention building the rolling stock....

There isn't much of a plan 'A'. The rolling stock work is years behind schedule for reasons that will have any engineer banging their head on the wall in frustration.

Instead of letting the companies go out and buy trains someone decided there should be a big grand plan (first mistake). This will be a new 26m vehicle length train (so it buggers up a load of clearances and needs tons of work doing) and it will have all the features wanted by every operator on every route it might operate upon (second mistake - design by committee is expensive and produces awful results).

It's a thing called the "Intercity Express Program". It started in 2005, took 2 years to publish a procurement notice and they were supposed to enter service in 2013.

It took until 2009 to select a preferred bidder which is Agility Trains consortium (described by the cynical as Hitachi pretending to be British)

In 2010 it all ended up back up in the air because the government said it had to wait until after the election, the train companies were fighting it and it was deferred to the spending review.

But wait it gets better..

In 2011 the government paused the decision and concluded that elements of the design were "untried and untested" and it all got bumped along. It took until March 2011 to agree a first order now for far less stock and to serve London-Cardiff. They only just (last month) signed the agreement for the ECML units - the same year they were *supposed* to have been in service.

Planned entry into service is now 2017/8  :help:

All in all a complete and total farce and with all the features specified I bet they'll take some time after 2017 to get running reliably. They are also mindnumbingly expensive and we'll be paying for the mess for almost 30 years.

But yes they do have to replace the HSTs eventually. At some point the body shell and other structural components pass their usage limits.

Alan
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline Skyline2uk

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  • Lets preserve at least one HST.....
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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2013, 10:37:41 PM »
Like a moth to a flame I was to this subject............

Etched, I am ashamed to say I had not heard anything at all about the "Intercity Express Program", but from what you describe..... :headbutt:

I often have come across design by committee.  :veryangry:

I am familiar with the electrification program between here (Bristol) and London, having been to a very good talk on the subject last year. That at least seemed to be planned on fairly solid principles.

BUT

The main point of my post is, really, will the nation save at least one HST set?! As per my signature, we have preserved A3's, A4's and Detics. All deservedly so.

I just hope these guys....http://www.125group.org.uk/ succeed in their ultimate goal.

Skyline2uk

P.S. They are doing ok with the prototype by the looks of it  :claphappy:

Offline Sprintex

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2013, 11:02:32 PM »
They managed to get Valenta No.S508 to splutter and bang into life for the first time in preservation, with much help from the EMT fitters as usual :thumbsup:

The picture on the front of OneTwoFive magazine was a sight to behold!!  :laugh:


Paul

Offline MJKERR

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2013, 11:21:11 PM »
I am ashamed to say I had not heard anything at all about the "Intercity Express Program"

I am familiar with the electrification program between here (Bristol) and London, having been to a very good talk on the subject last year
Surely the electrification program would have included, at least, some basic details of the rolling stock and other projects required
However, if this was presented by Network Rail then they would only discuss this if someone raised it during open questions

A similar issue exists with electrification projects across the UK
The DfT specify the routes then each piece of the pie receives details of what the DfT expects

As far as I am aware there have not been any issues with IEP, but simply the entire project was put back as the Network Rail funding was deferred
The IEP was then delayed to take into account legal changes which had taken place in that time

Offline BernardTPM

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2013, 11:33:47 PM »
Long term the HST will be replaced by electric trains. In the meantime, they've all be re-engined so should easily be running about for at least another decade if not two. Time to bite the bullet and fit power doors and retention toilets throughout the entire fleet to bring them into line with current standards. If they do that and stick a new 'plastic' nosecone/cab on the front probably 90% of passengers will think they're brand new anyway!

Offline EtchedPixels

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2013, 11:34:40 PM »
Well I'd see being five years late and counting is an 'issue'. It is in most businesses.
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline OwL

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 11:44:48 PM »
The HST replacement will be something s**t like the bendy buses which replaced many Routemaster buses in London.
(bendy buses got banished from London for being so crap and dumped on the Maltese whom hate them more than Londoners by the way)

Whatever replaces HST will definately:

A) Be a non British design made in Germany/Japan or China.

B) never be as good or iconic as the HST.

We better put some pennies away and start preserving these wonderful machines before they get scrapped :'(


Proud New Owner of Old Warren Traction Maintenance Depot Layout.

http://www.c58lg.co.uk/  http://www.c60pg.co.uk/

Offline EtchedPixels

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 11:52:10 PM »
Long term the HST will be replaced by electric trains. In the meantime, they've all be re-engined so should easily be running about for at least another decade if not two. Time to bite the bullet and fit power doors and retention toilets throughout the entire fleet to bring them into line with current standards. If they do that and stick a new 'plastic' nosecone/cab on the front probably 90% of passengers will think they're brand new anyway!


There has been a fair bit of planning done on this. With plug doors and some changes to comply with disability regulations the coach shells are reckoned to be good to 2035 or so (depending upon usage) with some specific problem areas identified for monitoring. After that point the metalwork of the monocoque shell goes beyond the point the engineers are comfortable with and its scrap metal. Now it could be longer - fatigue simulation technology keeps improving.

The power cars I don't believe are expected to be good that long however (or need to make it past about 2025)

On the preservation front the 125 group is involved both in preparing to preserve one when the chance comes and also in getting 41001 (the prototype car) running again. They got the engine running recently and clag fans will not be disappointed with the mess...

41001's First Start

OwL:

It'll be a) A Japanese design and B) remains to be seen - Hitachi made some awesome Japanese trains...
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline Plainline.

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 05:10:40 AM »
How about modern off the shelf European locos  hauling refurbished mk3's with new dvt's and control systems. Much cheaper, more flexible and at the very least not a waste of money like the train no one wants or needs like the  IEP.

Offline Michael Shillabeer

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 08:08:56 AM »
The HST's first replacement didn't successfully enter service...

The HST was only meant for a few years use, until the APT came into service :)

Wikipedia entry about the Intercity Express Programme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme

Michael

Offline 4x2

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 09:14:18 AM »
As I worked for Intercity (just before it became Great Western) I heard of some strange ideas regarding HST's... The best idea I heard was to split a set into 2 sections and have driving cabs in each coach end, the basic plan was to operate as a full set in rush hour and then split during the day to cut fuel costs and reduce empty seats per trip. There are a few snags... Top speed would be limited to 90mph coach end first,  buffet and first class would have to be split up to provide those services on both sections.

This was in the planning stages in the early nineties, so I'm assuming they gave up ! That said passenger numbers are much higher these days, so it wouldn't work now....
If it's got rails... you have my full, undivided attention - Steam, diesel and electric, 'tis all good !

Mike

Offline EtchedPixels

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 11:08:49 AM »
How about modern off the shelf European locos  hauling refurbished mk3's with new dvt's and control systems. Much cheaper, more flexible and at the very least not a waste of money like the train no one wants or needs like the  IEP.

IEP is intended run at 140mph, Mark 3 stock can't do that. There is already a shortage of mark 3 stock so something else is needed to displace some of it.
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline Plainline.

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 08:42:22 PM »
Hi Etched Pixels,

Good point, but the hst is a hard act to follow and I don't think IEP is up to the job. I believe loco hauled mk3 's are the answer elsewhere in the country if not on first great western with the present speed limit. I remember in the 80's BR experimented with various dmu replacements with limited success until they realised the best answer was to build a modern version of what they already had. Surely the best thing to replace an hst is another up to date electric hst?

Offline 4x2

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Re: HST Replacement ?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 09:11:02 PM »
That would be too easy !  That's a common sense idea - that won't catch on...!
If it's got rails... you have my full, undivided attention - Steam, diesel and electric, 'tis all good !

Mike

 

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