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Author Topic: Layout wiring..  (Read 331 times)

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Offline springwood

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Layout wiring..
« on: May 07, 2019, 03:06:30 PM »
Hi all, hoping some of you out there can take a look at the attached mimic diagram (which represents my in-progress N gauge layout). I would really appreciate some confirmation (or otherwise) on whether I am correct with my track feeds and breaks. I am wiring up for cab control.

Let me advise on a few things to aid understanding:

This is for analogue/dc wiring

The points labelled UM1, UM2, DM1, DM2, DM3 and DM4 are all in the fiddle yard area and are INSULfrogs

ALL other points are ELECTROfrogs

I intend to use accessory switches on all electrofrogs points to assist with polarity switching.

Track feeds are shown (usual black and white triangles, as per CJ Freezer!)

I believe I need double rails breaks (using IRJ's) at all the places I have marked with the two small dashes. This, in particular, is the area I want to be fully sure on!

Certainly would be grateful for comments/suggestions - thank you!

Robin

Offline jpendle

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 03:15:18 PM »
The Insulfrog points in the fiddle yard do not need the rail breaks, that's the 'point' of Insulfrogs.

All the rest looks OK to me as far as the rail breaks and track feeds go.

But why only use accessory switches on the Electrofrog points? Both Electro and Insul frog rely on blade contact to switch frog polarity, so both are just as likely to need additional switching unless track is kept scrupulously clean.

Regards,

John P

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 04:22:10 PM »
It would be more railway like to reverse the cross over UM3/DM6 so it is a trailing one. Unless it's for direct access to the track going up from BL1, from the outer mainline - is this a bay platform road?

I'd move the double breaks in the outer main fiddle yard to near UM2 - this will allow you to run a train into one of the loops with the exit point set against it.

Otherwise good to go!!!
Norman

Offline tunneroner61

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 04:23:22 PM »
PS. John P comments on using accessory switches on all the points is very valid.

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2019, 05:02:03 PM »
I agree with John P - no need for any rail breaks in the fiddleyard as you're using Insulfrog points. Assuming that all of the "red" or "green" trackwork is powered as a single section (one train running) then you simply run a train into the fiddleyard and change both points to the other loop to take out the next train.
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline springwood

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 06:18:51 PM »
Thanks for your comments so far, chaps.

John P - I take what you are saying about the unnecessary IRJs in the fiddle yard roads. It's not a mistake to include them though, I guess(?). Anyway, the outer loop (UP main) is now laid and tested and everything is fine.
What I am curious about is the provisioning of an accessory switch to an insulfrog point. To be quite honest, I didn't know that was possible. I have done seemingly endless reading and Youtube video watching to try and get my head round this polarity switching lark and, to that end, know exactly how to wire up an electrofrog point. I have had a practice with a spare electrofrog point and successfully attached the frog wire (with solder) onto the wires that cross over underneath. Could someone please explain best method to wire up an insulfrog? I already have two points glued down now so any mods will have to be done in-situ.

Nick, the UM3/DM6 cross-over is basically to allow (as and when required) a train to pass from up main to down main. Same principal with the DM5/BL1 cross-over (link from down main to branch). To the left of BL1, it runs to a bay platform.

Robin
Thank you





Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2019, 06:33:28 PM »
What I am curious about is the provisioning of an accessory switch to an insulfrog point. Could someone please explain best method to wire up an insulfrog? I already have two points glued down now so any mods will have to be done in-situ.

I recently did this with the Setrack points in my automated fiddleyards, as a "belt-n-braces" approach as the system relies on the points to isolate the trains.   Basically you simply bind the two V rails to a common frog wire which goes to a changeover switch exactly the same as you do with an electrofrog point.   In my case these are stub sidings with no further power feed, so no need to add any isolating breaks after the frog.  As it's a fiddleyard there was no requirement to make the frog wiring hidden so it's just a simple loop between the rails



Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline jpendle

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2019, 07:02:12 PM »
Hi,

I just solder to the bottom of one of the Vee rails as it exits the point, as close as possible to the plastic. That way I can still get a rail joiner onto it.

Now I have had around 40 points to practice soldering on, so I'm much better at it now than I was when I started  :D

John P

Offline springwood

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2019, 07:47:12 PM »
John P - ntpntpntp says "you simply bind the two V rails to a common frog wire which goes to a changeover switch exactly the same as you do with an electrofrog point", but you say "I just solder to the bottom of one of the Vee rails as it exits the point"...

Difference of opinion here; I can see where ntp is coming from - surely you must solder to both 'V' rail sections as they are both insulated from each other??

Offline jpendle

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2019, 09:19:48 PM »
Yes I'm certainly wrong in my assertion, I haven't used an Insulfrog point in 30 years  :D

I probably should have said 'solder to the backs of the TWO Vee rails'

John P

Offline springwood

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 08:14:54 PM »
I have had my mimic/wiring diagram checked by the the Peco technical guru himself (a Mr Beard) and he advises on an additional feed on the branch line and a single rail-break by BL1 (as I'm using electrofrog points). I've checked this through and he's spot on there.
I had a telephone conversation with him this afternoon and he stated that the latest N gauge electrofrog points (which I have got) have a very generous amount of blade contact with stock rails and really do not need any additional wiring/accessory switches - I'll buy that!! So I'll be sticking to my standard peco point motors wired up with CDU and Heathcote Electronic's very good point indicator boards so I can have control panel point position indication using LEDs. He says that as long as you keep the blades, stock rails and rail tops clean, everything should work fine..

Leaves me still unsure as to why you would want to 'tamper' with a standard insulfrog point and fit a changeover auxilliary switch?? If, over time, the effectiveness of the spring diminishes, peco can supply replacements  :hmmm:




Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 08:30:32 PM »
Leaves me still unsure as to why you would want to 'tamper' with a standard insulfrog point and fit a changeover auxilliary switch?? If, over time, the effectiveness of the spring diminishes, peco can supply replacements  :hmmm:

It's not so much about the spring as about the blade to stock rail contact. No matter what Peco might say, those of us who've used their products for decades know what happens: the rail tarnishes and specks of dust/dirt make their way in. Yes you can/should clean down in those gaps, but if you want best reliability over the long term then adding a belt-n-braces approach can be a wise decision. 

In my case, in the context of an exhibition layout you want the absolute best running you can achieve.  My live frog pointwork on the scenic part of my layout all has frog polarity feeds and has been pretty much 100% reliable for over 22 years .  My fiddleyard, on the other hand, uses simple Insulfrog Setrack points and whilst generally ok I do experience the odd conductivity problem. That's why I've now added frog feeds to those points too - on my automated yards at least, if not on the main fiddleyard yet.

You don't have to "tamper" as you put it, but it does help!
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Online Bealman

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 11:19:51 PM »
Yes, all points on my layout are Electrofrog and rely on blade contact. I admit I've had problems with them on occasion over the years, but there are a lot of them, and due to many factors such as location and a being hard wired to a complex signalling system, it would be next to impossible to add polarity switching at this late stage.

Ah well, yet another of life's mistakes I'll have to live with.
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline njee20

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2019, 02:25:43 PM »

John P - I take what you are saying about the unnecessary IRJs in the fiddle yard roads. It's not a mistake to include them though, I guess(?).

If you use IRJs on insulfrog points then both vee rails are dead, and will need a feed of some sort. IRJs are also harder to use than metal joiners and more expensive, it's just pointless and will cause you a lot of extra work.

I admit I'm DCC, so perhaps that's the difference, but I don't get why you'd wire a polarity switch on insulfrogs. The vee rails can take power from feeds beyond them, and adding switches to the vee rails does nothing to mitigate the fact that you're still relying on blade contact to power everything up to the frog; I'd have thought bonding the stock and closure rails would be a more sensible mod. Again, caveated that I've never wired for DC!

Offline springwood

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Re: Layout wiring..
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2019, 07:19:37 PM »
njee20 - if you have track feeds coming into the toe end of an insulfrog point (as is good practice), then the 'v' rails are not dead. Route set for straight on is +'ve and -'ve (whilst siding is unpowered and -'ve). Opposite situation when route is set for siding.

Anyway, after all these forum comments and watching videos, I just felt I needed to do a trial set-up to once and for all prove to myself that it is possible. As per ntpntpntp, I successfully soldered a wire to bind both 'V' rails of one of my spare insulfrogs and then proceeded to wire everything up - as per attached sketch diagram. Subject to a few tweeks, it all worked. With the power supply switched on and the knob of the controller turned on to approx half way (to put some voltage into the track), I placed some light card wedges around the switch blades to ensure no contact with stock rails and simulate no contact. Tested with a multimeter and, sure enough, nothing getting through to the 'V' rails. With the card still in place, I threw the point motor and carried out same meter test - power to the frog was achieved!!

As I progress with the layout, I will certainly do this set-up on my insulfrogs (6 of) in the fiddle yard and possibly provision for this (by attaching a frog wire) to the new electrofrogs in case I want to use this functionality in the future.

 

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