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Author Topic: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]  (Read 4063 times)

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Offline njee20

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2019, 12:42:59 PM »
You're presumably using FB plain track as well, as FB turnouts with BH plain track would be a bit odd? I would assume (but freely admit I don't know) that the main running lines of your chosen prototype were all FB in 1990s, with BH in the sidings/subsidiary lines.

Model chairs, as with Versaline kits are grossly overscale for FB pointwork clips, where a (tiny) 'blob' of solder would be more akin to the real thing. The chairplates, used in isolation, would (IMO) be a bit pointless and you may as well use plain PCB construction IMO.

Which components are you actually thinking of using?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2019, 01:35:49 PM »
You're presumably using FB plain track as well, as FB turnouts with BH plain track would be a bit odd? I would assume (but freely admit I don't know) that the main running lines of your chosen prototype were all FB in 1990s, with BH in the sidings/subsidiary lines.

Model chairs, as with Versaline kits are grossly overscale for FB pointwork clips, where a (tiny) 'blob' of solder would be more akin to the real thing. The chairplates, used in isolation, would (IMO) be a bit pointless and you may as well use plain PCB construction IMO.

Which components are you actually thinking of using?

I have not yet studied the components in detail, as I am not sure whether I will be doing things in this way or not. I may yet wait for British Finescale/Wayne to release the fiNetrax flat bottom turnouts and work on the 00 gauge layout once I have finished laying the fiddle yard track, or try to get the flatbottom turnouts built professionally.

I will have to study the 2mmFS book on track building to see what is workable; I am not even sure that the Versaline system does actually represent the clips of flatbottom pointwork now that I think about it; I seem to remember that there was a system that does this, but I am not entirely sure. I will have to check the book. Perhaps I misremembered this and the copper clad/solder method is all that can be done for flatbottom in any case. The Burton-on-Trent layout does have good track - although the lack of any clips on the points (or flatbottom wooden sleepered rail as can be seen in some places) is somewhat noticeable, especially when these clips are readily visible on the plain track.

As to plain track, I will be using a mix of the fiNetrax flatbottom concrete sleepered track for the main lines and the fiNetrax bullhead track for sidings and other minor lines such as the bay platform.

Offline njee20

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2019, 01:51:38 PM »
I've not looked closely, but I don't believe the Versaline system (like many 2mm SA products) is designed for FB at all. Easitrac is, but obviously no use for N gauge turnouts.

With the utmost respect to both you and Wayne I would strongly dispute that Finetrax FB turnouts will look better than Cav's, even if his doesn't have a representation of the clips. If anything I would say they are overscale on the Finetrax plain line, albeit obviously through necessity due to their structural nature. Again, your layout of course, and it will mean homogeny between plain line and turnouts which I can understand the appeal of.

If you're getting FB turnouts built professionally how do you think they'll be done? That's no different to if you do them yourself. Given the cost of parts (largely trivial) why not have a go? Then you can decide if you find the aesthetic jarring? If you do then you've wasted a few hours of your life and 5 of bits.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2019, 02:29:50 PM »
I think that I will have to check the 2mmFS book on track again before considering this further - my recollection of the position as to the various methods of constructing flatbottom turnouts, which is somewhat vague, but is to the effect that there is a specific standard method supported by 2mm Finescale Society components for building flatbottom turnouts with a better representation of the fixings than can be achieved with blobs of solder, is not entirely consistent with the information that I am reading here, and I am not entirely sure which is correct.

I do not need to make a decision on what to do about the main line pointwork straight away, as I have not finished laying the fiddle yards yet (and may well wait for the British Finescale flatbottom turnouts to become available), but will need to give some consideration to this in time.

Offline njee20

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2019, 02:42:33 PM »
Also entirely possible my recollection is wrong, but having looked at the 2mm SA shop it appears to confirm there are no Versaline parts with representations of FB fixings, only chairs for BH. Like I say, the issue you have is that scale Pandrol clips will be minuscule, and are probably better omitted than including something overscale. Would be interested in an alternative though.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2019, 11:47:20 PM »
Also entirely possible my recollection is wrong, but having looked at the 2mm SA shop it appears to confirm there are no Versaline parts with representations of FB fixings, only chairs for BH. Like I say, the issue you have is that scale Pandrol clips will be minuscule, and are probably better omitted than including something overscale. Would be interested in an alternative though.

I have now checked the book: the position is that it is possible to use Versaline chairplates to represent the clips used on flatbottom rail, including turnouts.

Offline njee20

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2019, 06:36:38 PM »
Ta. I thought the chair plates were just rectangles you solder to the sleepers (and in turn solder the rail/chairs to)?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2019, 06:52:57 PM »
Ta. I thought the chair plates were just rectangles you solder to the sleepers (and in turn solder the rail/chairs to)?

I have not studied them in detail - what I know is that the book recommends using them to represent clips.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2019, 02:45:39 PM »
Since I had 3 spare SL-U395 (right hand medium radius turnouts), I thought that it would be efficient to revise the design to increase the storage capacity for locomotives and multiple units a little on the right hand/west side of the layout, where there was a little spare space. The revised design now makes use of the three spare turnouts:


Online crewearpley40

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2019, 02:49:28 PM »
Looking good that plan james
blue / grey era diesels / electrics and suitable stock

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2019, 01:05:20 AM »
Track laying continues slowly as I add the longer fiddle yard roads. I am soldering all electrically connective joints to ensure maximum reliability.

Length testing fiddle yards by James Petts, on Flickr

Testing for length, the roads are plenty long enough:

HST in partly laid fiddle yard by James Petts, on Flickr

One difficulty is that laying the track as I am doing (loosely without pinning anything down until the geometary of everything is confirmed to fit into everything else), it is increasingly difficult to get the track, especially those in which there are curves, to remain stable as more track is added.

Offline Graham

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2019, 01:34:45 AM »
a possible solution could be to use drawing pins / thumb tacks, until you are ready to properly pin them. that is what we do at our local club.

cheers
Graham

Online crewearpley40

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2019, 03:01:39 AM »
James. Looking good. Take your time the end result will be worth it
blue / grey era diesels / electrics and suitable stock

Offline njee20

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2019, 09:10:57 PM »
Ta. I thought the chair plates were just rectangles you solder to the sleepers (and in turn solder the rail/chairs to)?

I have not studied them in detail - what I know is that the book recommends using them to represent clips.

I've been away for a few days so didn't have my copy of the book to hand, but have just skim read the first chapter. I most certainly don't want to labour the point, as it's your layout and you need to do what's right for you, but they are a little contradictory, for modern FB track they say both: "rail soldered direct to PCB concrete sleepers, Versaline chair plates for pointwork", and, of pointwork specifically "(plain soldered) ...is faster than Versaline or Easitrac as there are no chairplates... With FB rail it's a very good representation of more modern track."

I would still advocate plain PCB, using solder balls for the closest to scale appearance of 'modern' FB pointwork, and wouldn't use either chairplates or chairs myself. Given the space you have I think you're absolutely crying out for some proper handbuilt track, you could have some fantastic long crossovers, which would look superb, and (IMO) superior to Finetrax purely due to the totally custom geometry and larger sizes you would inevitably be able to use. I think writing off handbuilt pointwork for reasons of realism would be a big mistake.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Oxcott [Thames valley 1989/Network SouthEast]
« Reply #89 on: May 20, 2019, 09:26:59 PM »
Ta. I thought the chair plates were just rectangles you solder to the sleepers (and in turn solder the rail/chairs to)?


I have not studied them in detail - what I know is that the book recommends using them to represent clips.


I've been away for a few days so didn't have my copy of the book to hand, but have just skim read the first chapter. I most certainly don't want to labour the point, as it's your layout and you need to do what's right for you, but they are a little contradictory, for modern FB track they say both: "rail soldered direct to PCB concrete sleepers, Versaline chair plates for pointwork", and, of pointwork specifically "(plain soldered) ...is faster than Versaline or Easitrac as there are no chairplates... With FB rail it's a very good representation of more modern track."

I would still advocate plain PCB, using solder balls for the closest to scale appearance of 'modern' FB pointwork, and wouldn't use either chairplates or chairs myself. Given the space you have I think you're absolutely crying out for some proper handbuilt track, you could have some fantastic long crossovers, which would look superb, and (IMO) superior to Finetrax purely due to the totally custom geometry and larger sizes you would inevitably be able to use. I think writing off handbuilt pointwork for reasons of realism would be a big mistake.


There are three quite separate issues:

(1) whether to try to build hand-built pointwork at all;
(2) if so, whether to use the PCB soldered method or Versaline chairplates; and
(3) if hand-built pointwork be used, what geometary that it should be.

Whether to use hand-built pointwork at all

I am certainly open to having a go at this, although I have made no final decisions yet as I am still laying the fiddle yard track, which is all Peco. The Model Railway Club is having a point building workshop for members on Sunday, which I am planning to attend. That will focus on EM gauge (relevant for a club layout on which I am working), but I anticipate that the techniques will also be of relevance to N gauge.

However, if I find this too time-consuming or difficult or decide that it would be more efficient to start work on the 00 gauge layout and focus on the N gauge layout later, preferably when British Finescale has released its flat bottom turnout kits, I might decide against it.

Whether, if hand-building track, to represent the clips with Versaline chairplates

This is still not something that I have looked at in detail, and it would not make any sense to make a decision about it until I have looked at it in detail, nor spend the time and effort necessary to look at it in detail unless and until I decide finally in favour of hand-building track.

It will be a matter of working out how much more effort is involved in using the Versaline method, how much better that this looks, and then weighing one against the other.

Track geometry

I have planned the layout in SCARM, which includes templates for most of the current range of British Finescale turnouts. I can find no data on any other shapes of turnouts, especially flat bottom turnouts, and, even if I could, I am not sure how to integrate these into my existing SCARM plan.

The plan:



is not one where there seems to be any space left for significantly longer crossings: as it stands, I had to use the C9 rather than the C10 points/crossings on the main line because of space constraints. I am aware that flat bottom turnouts use slightly different geometry, but I have been unsuccessful in finding any detail of this geometry, and will have to live with C9/C10 geometery unless and until I am able:

(a) to find sufficient detail about flatbottom geometry; and
(b) to find a workable way of integrating this into my layout plan.

In any event, thank you for your thoughts on this.

 

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