N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Society => Topic started by: emjaybee on December 02, 2019, 06:04:23 PM

Title: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 02, 2019, 06:04:23 PM
With all the 'excitement' over the upcoming Ferryvan project, I was just wondering if we are ever going to see Stove-R chassis again?

There's a lot of kits designed for this chassis, and a lot of members, if I recall correctly, that were requesting action on this topic as they were waiting for chassis. Is there any progress, is there going to be any progress, or are the membership that want these being ignored in favour of a more modern model?

In case there's any confusion, I am having a bit of a dig.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on December 03, 2019, 12:24:45 PM
It's unfortunate that you are having a dig, when a simple respectful question would have elicited a response all the same.

If only people could just be nice, the world would be a much better place......

It would also have been helpful if the question had been asked directly of the Society, i.e. via the NGS Groups.io forum, the Facebook page, or any of the relevant email addresses supplied at the front of each journal, rather than via a non-NGS forum.

In answer to the question, at the last shout enquiries were being made with regards what form any possible re-run would take, and whether or not it was possible to order only chassis, if indeed that was what the Society wanted to do. I have not heard what the result of these discussions were, but I will investigate further and get back to you.

Best

Scott.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 03, 2019, 01:16:22 PM
It was only a little dig, but please accept my apologies.

Thank you for the comprehensive reply. There was a fairly in-depth discussion elsewhere, and the impression I got was that people were keen to move forward, in fact if I recall correctly running numbers were discussed, and then the discussion just stopped.

In regard to where I asked the question, there are many of us that will not have anything to do with Facebook in any way, shape or form. As regards to the groups.io forum I find it horrible to use as it is a bit archaic and outdated. Its also not just for NGS members, so it's no different from the N Gauge Forum except that the latter is easy and pleasant to use.

Thanks again for the reply, and, again, I apologise for the way I asked. Perhaps I shouldn't post late night after looking at possible kits that all require the six-wheel.

 :sorrysign:
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on December 03, 2019, 01:23:00 PM

 again, I apologise for the way I asked.

 :sorrysign:

Accepted, appreciated and moved on.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: red_death on December 03, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
I don't know the latest discussions but the issue last time the NGS looked at this was not a lack of willingness on the part of the NGS but simply that previously the chassis had been produced with re-orders of the Stove R and with no imminent possibility of re-ordering the Stove R (due to MoQs) then getting the chassis alone wasn't possible.

That is at least 2 years out of date (possibly more like 3 or 4) but I  would have thought that some of the same considerations are still relevant.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: Newportnobby on December 03, 2019, 02:25:16 PM
Maybe something for one of our 3D specialists?
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 03, 2019, 03:04:44 PM
I don't know the latest discussions but the issue last time the NGS looked at this was not a lack of willingness on the part of the NGS but simply that previously the chassis had been produced with re-orders of the Stove R and with no imminent possibility of re-ordering the Stove R (due to MoQs) then getting the chassis alone wasn't possible.

That is at least 2 years out of date (possibly more like 3 or 4) but I  would have thought that some of the same considerations are still relevant.

Cheers Mike

There was a fairly in-depth discussion within the last twelve months rattling around on the .io group about it.

What the heck is 'MoQs'?

Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 03, 2019, 03:07:22 PM
Maybe something for one of our 3D specialists?

Maybe. There's a fair number of kits/prints that all require the chassis. All those manufacturers say 'Chassis available from N Gauge Society', er, no.  :(
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: red_death on December 03, 2019, 03:12:32 PM
What the heck is 'MoQs'?

Minimum order quantities (should have been MOQs probably!)
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 03, 2019, 03:55:04 PM
What the heck is 'MoQs'?

Minimum order quantities (should have been MOQs probably!)

Ta.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 03, 2019, 04:39:12 PM
What the heck is 'MoQs'?

Minimum order quantities (should have been MOQs probably!)

Ta.

Following on from that statement, are the NGS holding the rights to that model, or do Dapol hold it? With the entrance of Sonic, and your relationship with Rapido is it possible to pass the job to them?

Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: red_death on December 03, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Following on from that statement, are the NGS holding the rights to that model, or do Dapol hold it? With the entrance of Sonic, and your relationship with Rapido is it possible to pass the job to them?

My understanding is that the NGS owns the tooling (held by Dapol). Asking Sonic/Rapido/Revolution to use the tooling is very unlikely to change the MOQs for the better (and in some cases they would be higher).

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on December 03, 2019, 07:24:39 PM
Having looked into this via a couple of sources, the situation is as follows.

The NGS Shopkeep has been authorised to order a new run of the Stove R, including bare chassis from Dapol. However, this won't happen until the Hunslet shunters are dealt with and some of the capital tied up in that project starts flowing back into the Society bank account.

A rough proposed order and restock timescale has been suggested, but I'm not going to make that public for teh obvious  reasons.

Let's just say that it's in hand and as things stand it will happen.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: zwilnik on December 03, 2019, 09:00:05 PM
Having looked into this via a couple of sources, the situation is as follows.

The NGS Shopkeep has been authorised to order a new run of the Stove R, including bare chassis from Dapol. However, this won't happen until the Hunslet shunters are dealt with and some of the capital tied up in that project starts flowing back into the Society bank account.

A rough proposed order and restock timescale has been suggested, but I'm not going to make that public for teh obvious  reasons.

Let's just say that it's in hand and as things stand it will happen.

Best

Scott

Great stuff, completely understand the sensible approach of making sure the cashflow is there. I'll probably be ordering a bunch of chassis to stock up for future projects once they're available.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: RailGooner on December 03, 2019, 09:11:31 PM
Having looked into this via a couple of sources, the situation is as follows.

The NGS Shopkeep has been authorised to order a new run of the Stove R, including bare chassis from Dapol. However, this won't happen until the Hunslet shunters are dealt with and some of the capital tied up in that project starts flowing back into the Society bank account.

A rough proposed order and restock timescale has been suggested, but I'm not going to make that public for teh obvious  reasons.

Let's just say that it's in hand and as things stand it will happen.

Best

Scott

All very sensibly prudent. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 04, 2019, 12:14:08 AM
Having looked into this via a couple of sources, the situation is as follows.

The NGS Shopkeep has been authorised to order a new run of the Stove R, including bare chassis from Dapol. However, this won't happen until the Hunslet shunters are dealt with and some of the capital tied up in that project starts flowing back into the Society bank account.

A rough proposed order and restock timescale has been suggested, but I'm not going to make that public for teh obvious  reasons.

Let's just say that it's in hand and as things stand it will happen.

Best

Scott

Thanks very much for the update. It's great to know there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Your efforts are much appreciated.

I'll start working out how many I shall need in the future.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: Jeremy Edwards on December 06, 2019, 09:17:39 AM
I shall certainly look at ordering one/some depending on my finances.  I joined too late to order any of the previous batch in a livery that interested me.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: PaulCheffus on December 06, 2019, 10:51:08 AM
I'll probably be ordering a bunch of chassis to stock up for future projects once they're available.

Hi

I'd add a couple extra for projects you haven't even thought of yet.

I speak from experience as I thought I had enough of something I bought years ago but I am now down to my last one and I need another three or four to be on the safe side. Guess what they are not currently available.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on December 06, 2019, 12:54:32 PM
I'll probably be ordering a bunch of chassis to stock up for future projects once they're available.

Hi

I'd add a couple extra for projects you haven't even thought of yet.

I speak from experience as I thought I had enough of something I bought years ago but I am now down to my last one and I need another three or four to be on the safe side. Guess what they are not currently available.

Cheers

Paul

I have a use for four immediately, so I'll be ordering 20 'just in case'.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: EtchedPixels on December 06, 2019, 06:25:48 PM
Yep I'm thinking it might be worth ordering a hundred or so just to keep some kind of stock of them (and hopefully not freak the NGS shop out in the process).
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: JonHarbour on December 07, 2019, 12:37:56 AM
I can see that I will end up buying at least a couple.  I think this will be another big success for the NGS.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on March 06, 2020, 08:58:50 AM
Approval has been given for the re-order of the Stove R (and Snowplough) RTR models:

Five liveries, 250 of each for Stove R
Five liveries, 250 of each for Snowplough
350 of Stove R chassis.

The 5 Stove liveries are:

BR Maroon
Pullman
BR Crimson
BR Blue
BR C & C

The 5 Snowplough liveries are:

BR Ď60s Black
BR black with hazards
BR Ď70s black
BR blue
Scotty dog

Dapol say delivery will be about 8 months from time of order placed.

Best

Scott.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on March 06, 2020, 09:32:03 AM
That's some good news.

Can I however clarify something?

@NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) you say that 350 Stove-R chassis are going to be ordered is that correct?

350 seems a VERY small amount. From the conversations that have happened on this forum I'd say that 350 will probably sell out in 48hrs.

I'm hoping it's a typo, but if not, can I request an URGENT rethink on that number, there's an awful lot of stock available from the likes of @EtchedPixels (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=222) and Shapeways, to name just two, that require a Stove-R chassis and if they run out quickly we'll be back to square one again.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on March 06, 2020, 10:27:26 AM
That's some good news.

Can I however clarify something?

@NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) you say that 350 Stove-R chassis are going to be ordered is that correct?

350 seems a VERY small amount. From the conversations that have happened on this forum I'd say that 350 will probably sell out in 48hrs.

I'm hoping it's a typo, but if not, can I request an URGENT rethink on that number, there's an awful lot of stock available from the likes of @EtchedPixels (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=222) and Shapeways, to name just two, that require a Stove-R chassis and if they run out quickly we'll be back to square one again.

350 is not a typo and your request has been passed on to the relevant people.

Best

Scott.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on March 06, 2020, 11:23:15 AM
That's some good news.

Can I however clarify something?

@NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) you say that 350 Stove-R chassis are going to be ordered is that correct?

350 seems a VERY small amount. From the conversations that have happened on this forum I'd say that 350 will probably sell out in 48hrs.

I'm hoping it's a typo, but if not, can I request an URGENT rethink on that number, there's an awful lot of stock available from the likes of @EtchedPixels (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=222) and Shapeways, to name just two, that require a Stove-R chassis and if they run out quickly we'll be back to square one again.

350 is not a typo and your request has been passed on to the relevant people.

Best

Scott.

Thanks very much.

After I posted I went through some threads which mentioned the chassis and I reckon about 200 would sell in the first 24 hrs and the rest very quickly after.

Even 500/600 would help. I realise it's an additional cost to the Society,  but they are very popular. I've got six vehicles waiting for chassis and there's others I'd do if the chassis were available.

Here's hoping for a sensible solution.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on March 06, 2020, 11:41:03 AM
That's some good news.

Can I however clarify something?

@NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) you say that 350 Stove-R chassis are going to be ordered is that correct?

350 seems a VERY small amount. From the conversations that have happened on this forum I'd say that 350 will probably sell out in 48hrs.

I'm hoping it's a typo, but if not, can I request an URGENT rethink on that number, there's an awful lot of stock available from the likes of @EtchedPixels (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=222) and Shapeways, to name just two, that require a Stove-R chassis and if they run out quickly we'll be back to square one again.

350 is not a typo and your request has been passed on to the relevant people.

Best

Scott.

Thanks very much.

After I posted I went through some threads which mentioned the chassis and I reckon about 200 would sell in the first 24 hrs and the rest very quickly after.

Even 500/600 would help. I realise it's an additional cost to the Society,  but they are very popular. I've got six vehicles waiting for chassis and there's others I'd do if the chassis were available.

Here's hoping for a sensible solution.

I'm not the shopkeeper, nor the committee, but I do know that in terms of the last batch, between 20th July 2017 and 21st November 2018, the shop sold a total of 81 chassis, which is about 5 a month on average, and that's real scientific data.  It would be unprecedented for 350 chassis to be sold in 48hrs.

However, there may be an initial high level up-take upon release, particularly when it has been suggested that one individual may be after a large amount in one go. This last being the case, a higher figure is already being looked at.

Lastly, the NGS Shop fully intends to replenish supplies of the Stove on a semi-regular basis, but no more regularly than annually and only when demand/stock dictates it is viable.  My point is, this isn't intended to be the last order from Dapol of these models.

Best

Scott.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on March 06, 2020, 11:46:06 AM
@NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) thanks for the clarification. It's very useful to have some idea of the 'inner workings' of those sort of discussions. To be perfectly honest, if I were to think this would be the last chance for chassis I'd over order 'just in case'. Knowing that this is unlikely to be the case will help people anticipate and plan better.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: JonHarbour on March 06, 2020, 12:28:06 PM
I also suspect 350 chassis might disappear quite quickly! Although I donít have any specific projects at this time, I will probably end up buying a couple. There have been a couple of items in the past that caught my eye which needed this chassis...
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: red_death on March 06, 2020, 02:30:54 PM
Scott has given real sales figures demonstrating that past experience shows that even with 350 chassis that should be fine.  I'm sure that some people are very keen to get them but past experience (and it was similar when I was on the Committee) shows that it is a relatively limited number of people.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on March 06, 2020, 02:42:50 PM


Scott has given real sales figures demonstrating that past experience shows that even with 350 chassis that should be fine.  I'm sure that some people are very keen to get them but past experience (and it was similar when I was on the Committee) shows that it is a relatively limited number of people.

Cheers Mike

@red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) @NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239)

That's fine, but with all due respect, people will have been without them for two years or more, with the advancement of 3D printing there are more vehicles available for which they are well suited and there's quite a few people who already have vehicles with no chassis.

I'd be interested to know when the last batch was bought, how many was in that batch and how long it took to sell them all?

The Stove-R vehicles were still in stock quite a while after the chassis sold out. I would have thought that a similar proportion of vehicles to chassis needs procuring with more chassis on the order than last time.
If the chassis can only be ordered with the vehicles surely it makes sense to try and 'time' the final item sold of each to be similar.

Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: NGS-PO on March 06, 2020, 02:58:18 PM


Scott has given real sales figures demonstrating that past experience shows that even with 350 chassis that should be fine.  I'm sure that some people are very keen to get them but past experience (and it was similar when I was on the Committee) shows that it is a relatively limited number of people.

Cheers Mike

@red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) @NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239)

That's fine, but with all due respect, people will have been without them for two years or more, with the advancement of 3D printing there are more vehicles available for which they are well suited and there's quite a few people who already have vehicles with no chassis.

I'd be interested to know when the last batch was bought, how many was in that batch and how long it took to sell them all?

The Stove-R vehicles were still in stock quite a while after the chassis sold out. I would have thought that a similar proportion of vehicles to chassis needs procuring with more chassis on the order than last time.
If the chassis can only be ordered with the vehicles surely it makes sense to try and 'time' the final item sold of each to be similar.

In fairness, you've expressed your concerns and, again in fairness, I've acknowledged them and advised that the chassis figure was being looked at even before you raised said concerns.

With that in mind, I can't see the value in going round in circles over this.  Much more qualified people than I, within the committee, have to make a decision based on cash-in-hand, procurement costs, cashflow, shop storage space (remember the 'shop' is someone's actual home), expected sales rate, asset management, and I'm sure a few more considerations that I haven't thought of.

Can we maybe please just let them carry on as best they can, now that we've had our say?

Best

Scott.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: njee20 on March 06, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
Furthermore Scott gave figures to November 2018, so I presume thatís when the last batch sold. Less than 18 months, not more than 2 years. I donít think there have been such material advances in 3D printing that the demand will suddenly increase from 5 per month to your projection of 200 in 24 hours and 350 in 48 hours.

I have to agree with Scott here, that we should assume the society have a better feel for the popularity and demand for individual shop items.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on March 06, 2020, 03:09:58 PM
Yes, the figures were from July 2017 to November 2018.

In that period 81 chassis were sold.

Between November2018 and when a new batch will be available would be November 2020 if they were ordered today. Which is two years, which is why I said members "will have been without them for two years or more."

I was merely interested to know the original chassis batch size in comparison to the original vehicle batch size.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: red_death on March 06, 2020, 03:53:01 PM
I was merely interested to know the original chassis batch size in comparison to the original vehicle batch size.

It was a relatively small proportion of the total order (which is why the actual Stove Rs took longer to sell - IIRC (it is a while ago) the Stove Rs were also re-ordered in some liveries on at least one or two occasions). If demand was higher for the chassis then I would expect the 81 to have sold in a much quicker time period than Scott has told us.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: emjaybee on March 06, 2020, 03:55:07 PM
I was merely interested to know the original chassis batch size in comparison to the original vehicle batch size.

It was a relatively small proportion of the total order (which is why the actual Stove Rs took longer to sell - IIRC (it is a while ago) the Stove Rs were also re-ordered in some liveries on at least one or two occasions). If demand was higher for the chassis then I would expect the 81 to have sold in a much quicker time period than Scott has told us.

Ah, okay. Many thanks for the info on the vehicle re-order and clarification.
Title: Re: Stove R and chassis.
Post by: EtchedPixels on March 06, 2020, 10:58:53 PM
The NGS asked me about this at the start of January and I gave them some numbers including an offer to guarantee buying a certain number from them to bundle with kits.

I think a lot of people over-estimate the number of N Gauge kit builders versus RTR.

Alan
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