N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Society => Topic started by: martyn on November 24, 2019, 12:09:39 PM

Title: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 24, 2019, 12:09:39 PM
This has been brought to my attention by Dave/Southerngooner on the Society homepage;


http://newweb.ngaugesociety.com/?p=2490 (http://newweb.ngaugesociety.com/?p=2490)

 It is proposed to by the Society to produce the VIX type ferry van as an RTR model.

Martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Newportnobby on November 24, 2019, 12:38:04 PM
And for anyone like me who hasn't a scooby what a ferryvan is........................ :dunce:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryvan
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: crepello on November 24, 2019, 01:41:55 PM
This has been brought to my attention by Dave/Southerngooner on the Society homepage;


[url]http://newweb.ngaugesociety.com/?p=2490[/url] ([url]http://newweb.ngaugesociety.com/?p=2490[/url])

 It is proposed to by the Society to produce the VIX type ferry van as an RTR model.

Martyn


Yes!!! A great choice. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: weave on November 24, 2019, 01:49:18 PM
Hi Martyn,

Thanks for that. Will have to join the NGS to get them I presume.

Saying that, they'll probably have made and distributed them before my trainferry is completed though  :doh:. Been working on it today but sooooooo slowly.

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 24, 2019, 02:18:01 PM
Hi Chris;

They'll probably outclass my scratch builds as well...Ö.

I'm also working on a ship today, but the well deck coaster.

Martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Bob G on November 24, 2019, 05:42:42 PM
About time too, is all I can say. I will be up for quite a few :)

I wonder what liveries they will do them in?
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: gc4946 on November 24, 2019, 05:46:58 PM
I'm interested in buying at least one depending on the liveries offered.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 24, 2019, 06:18:57 PM
Excellent choice by the NGS.

From talking to Bob Symmons (Treasurer) on the NGS stand today, I am confident that there will be a wide range of appropriate liveries. I handballed a load into one of these about 45 years ago and I can confirm that they are very long wagons and I always felt they were very distinctive mixed in with other shorter wagons in a typical vacuum braked or air braked freight train.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 24, 2019, 06:20:55 PM
See NPN's reply #1 for a few clues as to what could be offered.

It will be interesting to see if they can be converted to other European Railways' wagons of similar wheelbase and underframe.

martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: NeMo on November 24, 2019, 06:32:40 PM
It will be interesting to see if they can be converted to other European Railways' wagons of similar wheelbase and underframe.

Would they not be out of scale? Assuming these are 1:148, and European modelling is 1∶160, they'd be rather too large to run on a German or whatever layout.

Or do you mean: could we make models of SNCF or DB wagons built to British N gauge size? That would indeed be pretty cool, if such wagons would appeal to NGS modellers.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: bluedepot on November 24, 2019, 06:39:49 PM
good i'll be buying red/grey railfreight and engineers dutch livery versions if offered so thats definitely 2 sold!

Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Bob G on November 24, 2019, 06:42:05 PM
It will be interesting to see if they can be converted to other European Railways' wagons of similar wheelbase and underframe.

Would they not be out of scale? Assuming these are 1:148, and European modelling is 1∶160, they'd be rather too large to run on a German or whatever layout.

Or do you mean: could we make models of SNCF or DB wagons built to British N gauge size? That would indeed be pretty cool, if such wagons would appeal to NGS modellers.

Cheers, NeMo

There are DB ferry wagons which did the Harwich route available at 1:148 in Shapeways, but having bought them, ModellbahnUnion did them in 1;160 at a much better level of detail than I could have ever attained, so as long as they seem to match OK in a train I will be happy.

Bob
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 24, 2019, 06:49:10 PM
Nemo/Neil;

I meant convert them to European designs but to 1:148 scale.

Other European railway vans seem to be built on a chassis very similar in dimensions to the VIX-I think.

Bob;

I run both Shapeways and ModellbahnUnion in my own 1:148 ferry train, as well as some scratchbuilt ones. Also some 1;160 reefers, which aren't too obviously out of scale. They can usually be seen on 'James St and 'Saneham Tey'.

Martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: emjaybee on November 24, 2019, 06:50:17 PM
Oh well, guess I'll be saving my pennies for something else then. Can't win 'em all.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 24, 2019, 06:51:58 PM
It will be interesting to see if they can be converted to other European Railways' wagons of similar wheelbase and underframe.

Or do you mean: could we make models of SNCF or DB wagons built to British N gauge size? That would indeed be pretty cool, if such wagons would appeal to NGS modellers.

Cheers, NeMo

Hi

You mean like these :-)
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35495.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35495.0)

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 24, 2019, 06:53:52 PM
Paul; reply#14;

I wondered what you'd think of the idea, after seeing your own masterpieces on the Forum-which are much better than mine.

Martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Shiney Sheff on November 24, 2019, 06:58:33 PM
Oh well, guess I'll be saving my pennies for something else then. Can't win 'em all.

I'm in the same camp as you, way too late for me, lets hope if it does get made they sell well.

Bob
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 24, 2019, 09:00:28 PM
Paul; reply#14;

I wondered what you'd think of the idea, after seeing your own masterpieces on the Forum-which are much better than mine.

Martyn

Hi

I have seen one of the Hornby VIX wagons (same type as the NGS proposal) cut up to make a Belgian diagram E423. Basically all they used were the parts of the sides that included the vents.

So Iím not sure it would be of much benefit to cut up the NGS Ferry Van to make these as they would still require a lot of work. Much easier in my opinion to scratch build from plasticard.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Western Exile on November 25, 2019, 08:22:22 AM
Very pleased with this announcement. Iím sure Iíll find a home for some of the original brown/bauxite versions, a couple of Railfreight red/grey and a Dutch one if that livery gets produced.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 25, 2019, 10:46:23 AM
Hi;

Knowing that a number of European vans and opens seem to share a common 8m wheelbase, I had hoped that clever design might have made more bodies available for a 'standard' chassis.

However, further research suggests that this won't be possible, as there are so many variations between the designs, and the Society proposal is for a RTR product.

So I think Paul's suggestion of scratchbuild from plastic card may be best for these (European) wagons.

martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 01:10:03 PM
I learned about this while at Warley yesterday. 

A bit of a disappointing choice for transition modellers it would seem as if not introduced until 1962, by the time they were established a sizeable chunk of steam/diesel transition period would be over. I can see that in the original livery they would find a place behind green diesels but steam?

Of course I appreciate that people work on these in their spare time, and I understand this is to be a first "in house" NGS project, but I can't help feeling that there would have been other prototypes that would have suited a wider range of membership than this one appears to.

Just my opinion, I'll buy a couple to support the Society and I hope it sells well, but I have a nagging doubt as certain later eras seem to "stick" (look at the NGS QMs for just one example).

Roy

Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: NGS-PO on November 25, 2019, 01:17:43 PM
In the absence of full information from the N Gauge Society, here are some links to a little information available on the Internet:

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm (https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm) - Very brief overview about half way down the page

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-ferry.htm (https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-ferry.htm) - Early livery sketches

Best

Scott
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Ben A on November 25, 2019, 01:36:03 PM
Hello all,

Warley was crazy busy this year - maybe a combination of the Great Model Railway challenge and the Rod Stewart effect - but here are some images of the first CAD of the NGS ferryvan received over the weekend.  It still needs checking and possibly some amendments.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/84/94-251119132820-8435061.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/84/94-251119132820-843502464.jpeg)

You'll notice the model has NEM couplers in kinematic sockets, lots of separately fitted detail including separate handles and brake equipment.

Roy - these wagons were instroduced in 1962 and operated until the late 1990s.  For me, they are virtually slap bang in the middle of the transition era, which I take to be the decade from the introduction of BR built diesels (1958ish?) to the end of steam (1968).

However, if they aren't quite right to you what would have been a better choice? 

We scratched around for ages! 

The only other option considered were the famous ICI hoppers, which lasted from 1930s to 2000, but were only used from the Peak Quarries to locations in Cheshire and Manchester I believe, and would've been more expensive too.

Cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: NGS-PO on November 25, 2019, 01:39:48 PM

A bit of a disappointing choice for transition modellers it would seem as if not introduced until 1962, by the time they were established a sizeable chunk of steam/diesel transition period would be over. I can see that in the original livery they would find a place behind green diesels but steam?



Roy

Hi Roy,

I'd say 1962 qualifies quite comfortably as transition era. Green Diesel side by side with steam until 1968, which I understand as the end of the transition.

Best

Scott

EDIT: Ben pre-empted my comment......
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 01:58:33 PM

A bit of a disappointing choice for transition modellers it would seem as if not introduced until 1962, by the time they were established a sizeable chunk of steam/diesel transition period would be over. I can see that in the original livery they would find a place behind green diesels but steam?



Roy

Hi Roy,

I'd say 1962 qualifies quite comfortably as transition era. Green Diesel side by side with steam until 1968, which I understand as the end of the transition.

Best

Scott

EDIT: Ben pre-empted my comment......

Hi Scott

Introduced in 1962 yes but when did they become widespread? Where would one typically see them? Would they be block workings? These are not wagons I recall seeing with any frequency in my many books covering the transition period, although from the late 60s more so and I think Triang Hornby introduced one in 00 around the time (if memory serves).

Transition is normally viewed as from post 1955 Modernisation Plan usually circa 1957 when the first pilot scheme and BR mainline diesels began to appear to last steam in August 1968 (in a few more isolated places). However by 1966 steam was on a rapid decline hence my comments.

Best Wishes

Roy

 





Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 02:09:02 PM
Hello all,

Warley was crazy busy this year - maybe a combination of the Great Model Railway challenge and the Rod Stewart effect - but here are some images of the first CAD of the NGS ferryvan received over the weekend.  It still needs checking and possibly some amendments.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/84/94-251119132820-8435061.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/84/94-251119132820-843502464.jpeg)

You'll notice the model has NEM couplers in kinematic sockets, lots of separately fitted detail including separate handles and brake equipment.

Roy - these wagons were instroduced in 1962 and operated until the late 1990s.  For me, they are virtually slap bang in the middle of the transition era, which I take to be the decade from the introduction of BR built diesels (1958ish?) to the end of steam (1968).

However, if they aren't quite right to you what would have been a better choice? 

We scratched around for ages! 

The only other option considered were the famous ICI hoppers, which lasted from 1930s to 2000, but were only used from the Peak Quarries to locations in Cheshire and Manchester I believe, and would've been more expensive too.

Cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)


Hi Ben

Well firstly to say that the CADs look really professional and I am sure involved a lot of work, both in the drawing up and research.

As to my choice?

People seem to have been crying out for a RTR Shark ballast brake, and on this specific occasion I do not think the fact that there has been a kit of it in the NGS range for donkeys-years is a good enough reason not to do one. The kit is OK but a RTR model to modern standards would be light years better. The wagons had a very long life (as did many PW vehicles) from 1950s right through to Sectorisation I believe.

Well you did ask!

Best wishes

Roy



Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: NGS-PO on November 25, 2019, 02:10:00 PM
Hi Roy,

I understand your position now, thanks for clarifying. I don't know when they became widespread, so I see where you're coming from.

In fairness, when I found out about this model, I didn't appreciate they were produced as early '62, I had them firmly in post-steam territory; so, as I say, I take your point.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Western Exile on November 25, 2019, 02:16:53 PM
A bit of a disappointing choice for transition modellers

Maybe, but a bigger disappointment for pre-1962 and post-2000ish modellers, of which I am neither. Luckily, on this occasion the NGS are producing a model that fits my area and era and I shall be buying several of them. Most times that is not the case. That’s just the way it is. But I agree with you about the Sharks, Roy.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Thorpe Parva on November 25, 2019, 02:18:09 PM
Agree about the need for an R-T-R Shark although this would compete against the Society's Kit & I suppose someone might eventually take on the previously expected DJM model.

Diesel Brake Tender would be a suitable Transition Era R-T-R model although I don't think they lasted as long as the Ferryvans.

David

NB - I will be ordering a Ferryvan or two.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: exmouthcraig on November 25, 2019, 03:21:36 PM
Theres no doubt that the NGS will deliver an absolutely fantastic model. It too is not for me but then again neither was
Gresley Full brake (kit I know)
Stove R
BR Snowplough
Thompson Brake
Car flats
40th Anniversary wagon
Or
LMS Inspection saloon

The Queen Mary brake was perfect BUT that's it, I chose to model my particular location at this particular time so cant complain things dont suit me.

As @Ben A (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) says, huge time frame and who knows wagons better then the revolutioN boys???

A RTR shark would be good, now farish no longer produce the Sealion you cannot get the kit from the NGS, I received the 'back in stock email' only to be sold out when I logged in  :'(

Theres many things wed like RTR from every manufacturer but patiently we wait for what we want.

Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 25, 2019, 04:19:34 PM
the NGS scrapped their horsebox when Farish built that, so the kits have to move with RTR

Hi

The Horsebox is still shown as a current NGS kit and they have stock so I am puzzled by your comment.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: exmouthcraig on November 25, 2019, 04:22:14 PM
I thought the plan with the nightmare that it was to build it was being dropped.

I shall now amend my post!
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: bluedepot on November 25, 2019, 04:35:07 PM
rtr sealions and sharks next year please...!

you cant get a model to fit in with everyones interests but i think the ferry van is a very good choice as they spanned 40 odd years and everyone loves unusual wagons!

how many are preserved? i think i saw one at bucks railway centre...


tim
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: willike1958 on November 25, 2019, 05:41:12 PM
Personally I think it's a great choice of wagon. They could be seen all over the country iii inter-regional goods trains as well as on local trip workings. Very nicely fills a gap in the RTR market. 
Kevin
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: red_death on November 25, 2019, 05:43:12 PM
I think a Shark is far too risky for the NGS - there is ex-DJM tooling out there somewhere that is only a matter of time before it will re-surface.

There were 400 VIXs (and other TOPS codes eg lots of departmental codes) and they were built in 1962 and 1963 - looking at Paul Bartlett's excellent site suggests Pressed Steel built the first 150 in 1962 and then BR Ashford built the remaining 250 in 1963.

Lasted a long time and ran all over the place (though there are far fewer pictures from early use - that is true of many wagons unfortunately).

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: bluedepot on November 25, 2019, 06:50:39 PM
when you say the shark may resurface, you mean a random chinese company could just start making and selling them???

satlink and engineers olive would be good livery options for the van model too



Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Skyline2uk on November 25, 2019, 08:02:58 PM
These are not a wagon I am familiar with but given my Dutch livery fetish will be in for at least one of those and, like the sonic VEAs, Railfreight liveries as well.

Going to have a nice speedlink rake at this rate  :thumbsup:


Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 08:33:42 PM
I think a Shark is far too risky for the NGS - there is ex-DJM tooling out there somewhere that is only a matter of time before it will re-surface.

There were 400 VIXs (and other TOPS codes eg lots of departmental codes) and they were built in 1962 and 1963 - looking at Paul Bartlett's excellent site suggests Pressed Steel built the first 150 in 1962 and then BR Ashford built the remaining 250 in 1963.

Lasted a long time and ran all over the place (though there are far fewer pictures from early use - that is true of many wagons unfortunately).

Cheers Mike

Hi Mike

It is impossible to know if the Shark tooling will ever resurface. However it was (according to those who know - not me) from all accounts not an especially good model by modern standards. In any case, for exactly the same reasons as the Clayton hasn't found a taker I would doubt the Shark tooling will find a buyer any time soon because the model is "damaged goods" and anyone remotely connected with our small N Gauge world knows that. Time will tell.

Given the various PW vehicles that have been available (Mermaid, Grampus and Dogfish, Sturgeon to come) a RTR Shark is such an obvious choice to complement them. I think I will therefore simply have to respectfully disagree with your assessment.

I have indeed looked through Paul Bartlett's site as regards the Ferry Van and I can't find any pictures of the vans there that aren't post-transition (in fact the majority are labelled as post 1980).

From what I can glean the wagons were used on two traffic flows, the Dover-Dunkerque and Harwich-Zeebrugge train ferries for general merchandise but where did the traffic originate from? Was it wagonload?

At the original build they were apparently branded FERRY VAN but it doesn't seem very long (1966?) before they were beginning to be branded with the British Rail "Arrows of Indecision".

There seem to be people on here delighted with the choice, and I truly hope there are enough to enable the model to wash it's face financially without a big take up from transition modellers. As I have said, I will buy a couple to support the Society (I generally do) I am simply expressing my own thoughts and reservations.

Best Wishes

Roy
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 25, 2019, 08:56:46 PM
Roy:

I think there was at least one bauxite livery version before the 'arrows of indecision' and possibly two.

Though the train ferries ran from Dover and Harwich there were a number of onward destinations. I think the Harwich flows went to either Goodmayes or March for sorting, though there was a significant trade in fruit and veg to London: including Bishopsgate before it burned down.

I'm not sure, but from what I can tell, it was wagon load: one was apparently Scotland to Iraq.(but I can't remember the reference).

I'm not sure of full flows, but the Harwich trains included, at least in later years, Bescot, Doncaster, Mossend, Tees yard, and other destinations. I don't have any working time tables to refer to for other destinations..

Photos of an (almost) complete train of ferry wagons seem to be rare, but I've seen one of a Whitemoor working and another to Temple Mills. I presume after remarshalling there the continental wagons would be mixed with normal BR stock for onward transmission.

Martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Ben A on November 25, 2019, 09:00:12 PM
Hello Roy,

Please bear in mind that the research phase of this model was started some time ago for us to be in the position now with CAD.

At the time the decision was made DJM was still, as far as any of us knew, hoping to produce a Shark.

Despite the obvious flaws such as the over-deep guards ducket, and poorly rendered planking in the DJM samples that were shown the NGS could not at that time commit to a Shark.

Things are different now, and it may be the next RTR projects officer will be in a position to look at it anew.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: red_death on November 25, 2019, 10:23:04 PM
I canít say too much but donít forget the factories talk to each other as do some of the manufacturers/retailers this side. So there are some fairly consistent messages that one hears about various bits of tooling.

Donít forget the tooling is too valuable to someone to leave do nothing.

As I said I suspect it is purely a matter of time.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Richard G Dallimore on November 25, 2019, 10:42:55 PM
I canít say too much but donít forget the factories talk to each other as do some of the manufacturers/retailers this side. So there are some fairly consistent messages that one hears about various bits of tooling.

Donít forget the tooling is too valuable to someone to leave do nothing.

As I said I suspect it is purely a matter of time.

I quite agree, a matter of time I have my suspensions and wait to see my gut says mid/late 2020 or early 2021.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: tunneroner61 on November 25, 2019, 11:01:10 PM
Regarding where the ferry vans were seen, in the late 70s/early 80s I used to travel to work in Manchester by rail from home in Glossop. I recall seeing plenty of VIXs in Dewsnap sidings (just east of Guide Bridge) and at Ashburys yard in east Manchester. They probably came in over the Woodhead from Harwich. I'll have a look at my Woodhead books when I have a bit of time.

HTH Norman
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: tunneroner61 on November 25, 2019, 11:02:40 PM
Richard,

I do hope your suspensions are not troubling you too much!!!! Do you need new springs?

cheers Norman
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: exmouthcraig on November 25, 2019, 11:06:48 PM
I canít say too much but donít forget the factories talk to each other as do some of the manufacturers/retailers this side. So there are some fairly consistent messages that one hears about various bits of tooling.

Donít forget the tooling is too valuable to someone to leave do nothing.

As I said I suspect it is purely a matter of time.

Could this be the final knife is someone's back from his previous business partner???

Ooooo that would make a TV drama.

I wonder what snippets of information are being heard on the N gauge grapevine  :uneasy:
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 11:58:31 PM
Hello Roy,

Please bear in mind that the research phase of this model was started some time ago for us to be in the position now with CAD.

At the time the decision was made DJM was still, as far as any of us knew, hoping to produce a Shark.

Despite the obvious flaws such as the over-deep guards ducket, and poorly rendered planking in the DJM samples that were shown the NGS could not at that time commit to a Shark.

Things are different now, and it may be the next RTR projects officer will be in a position to look at it anew.

Cheers

Ben A.

Hi Ben

Understood, I can see that a lot of work has been put in already to get the Ferry vans to the CAD stage and that will have taken a significant amount of time for those involved and as I understand it in no small part your good self personally.

I had not realised that you were standing down as NGS RTR Project Officer (I must read my Journal supplements more carefully!) I am saddened to learn that, but with your RevolutioN commitments and what must be a massively demanding day job I can quite understand why. I am appreciative of all that you have worked hard to make possible for the Society.

I do hope the Shark makes it as a future model, but understand that each model that is decided on is a collective decision by the NGS Committee so that cannot be assumed.

I am sure the Ferry Van will be excellent and a fitting final model for your PO tenure.

Best Wishes

Roy
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Steven B on November 26, 2019, 09:29:50 AM
The VIX has been high on my wish list for some time. I'll be able to retire my older Mill Lane Sidings kits (I was never very happy with the paint job I did on them and didn't like the idea of dunking something card/wood based in paint strippier).

Later in their lives, these wagons were used as barrier wagons, including for Chlorine traffic so they're a perfect match to run with the Society tanker kit.
They were very common on the Amlwch to Ellesmere Port trains:
This photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/16378965231 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/16378965231)
shows two VIX, one in bauxite, one in red-stripe, either end of a rake of empty Chlorine tanks and full Bromine tanks, hauled by a class 40 with brake vans at either end.

Is there any possibility the factory could run off more chassis than are needed for the vans? Many of the prototype wagons had the van body removed and either a solid steel floor fitted, or alternative body sides. They were used as:
Runner wagons (https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryvan/h62a7d9cc#h62a7d9cc)
Bogie carriers (https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryvan/h15d4593e#h15d4593e)
Chubb spoil wagon (https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryvan/h7cc5ba3#h7cc5ba3)

As runner wagons they were used for explosives traffic with VAA vans - Sonic's VEAs could easily be substituted. They were also used as under-runners for BDA (Society kit and RTR from Farish) when long loads were carried.

A kit could contain a blank floor, parts for the bogie carrier and sides for the Chubb. Perhaps something could be done using the 3d printing technology Rails of Sheffield have recently used for some pre-grouping vans?

If there's no demand for a kit, it would be great if the chassis be made available as a separate item (as per the Stove R)? I could find a home for 5-7 of them. As runners I could easily double that as I have more need for runners for my steel train than as vans.

Steven B.


Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 26, 2019, 09:51:35 AM
They probably came in over the Woodhead from Harwich. I'll have a look at my Woodhead books when I have a bit of time.

Hi

They did indeed and there is at least one photo of them in one of my Woodhead books in a train going down the line to Wath from Penistone in the earlier livery.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: 37058 on November 26, 2019, 10:49:28 AM
A very nice choice indeed. I'm sure I can find room for 1 or 2 ;)

Cheers
Anthony
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on November 26, 2019, 11:20:19 AM
There is a book dedicated to European ferry wagons; 'International train-ferry wagons in colour for the modeller and historian' by David Ratcliffe, published 2009 by Ian Allan.

However, although it gives a very brief history of the services from Harwich and Dover, it is mainly concerned with mid-1970s onward workings, as are most of the photos. This has a list of typical UK destinations/starting points, and some sample train formations.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that they usually ran with vehicles from other railways, especially DB, SNCF, SNCB, FS, and Societe Anglo-Belgique des Ferry boats; also, in the 50s and 60s, with STEF or Interfrigo reefers, and Transfesa wagons. So whilst a solo ferry van in a working would not be unreasonable, if they prove successful, I wondered if some-one would be enterprising enough to come up with other bodies, using the VIX chassis. However, as the proposed wagon is RTR, I wouldn't expect this to be the Society; and I'm not familiar enough with the various designs to say whether the VIX chassis could even be used.

Unfortunately, my own colour slides only date from circa 1973, and are all lost in the loft.

As per a previous post,

http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm (http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm)

has two other Bauxite liveries which pre-date the BR Double Arrows (scroll about half way down).

Martyn

Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Stuart Allen on November 27, 2019, 11:44:58 AM
Good choice i think.  Must be difficult making the decision what to commission without duplicating what might be in the pipeline from other companies.
I'll definitely order a railfreight liveried one, plus a Satlink one if produced.
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on December 01, 2019, 03:52:40 PM
An illustration of the wagon load concept of the ferry workings.

http://www.railpictorial.com/piwigo/picture.php?/3376/category/13 (http://www.railpictorial.com/piwigo/picture.php?/3376/category/13)

What appears to be two FS or SNCB (?) wagons immediately behind the loco.

Martyn
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Ben A on January 05, 2020, 10:10:39 PM

Hello all,

The N Gauge Societyís next RTR model - the popular BR Ferryvan - has reached another milestone with the final approval of the CAD drawings. 

The model is now ready to go to tooling, and this will proceed once the Treasurer gives authorisation.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/94-050120215644-857891640.jpeg)

Additional detailing - including the truss cross braces and vacuum pipe - has been added to the underside.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/94-050120215642-85784539.jpeg)

Keen-eyed members looking at photographs of the prototype may have spotted variations in the ends; the first batch of wagons built in 1962 had narrow uprights at each end, but the second and third batches (built from 1964) had reinforcements added from the upper horizontal rib to the buffer beam. 

The earlier wagons were subsequently given the same modification and photographic evidence suggests the entire fleet had been modified by 1970.

These are visually quite obvious, so the NGS model is being tooled to ensure both can be depicted. This is the original batch 1 end:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/94-050120215644-8578957.jpeg)

This is the revised end:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/94-050120215647-85791313.jpeg)

The rest of the model is unaltered:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/94-050120215646-857911254.jpeg)

Final livery selections are yet to be made, but potential options include original version with ďBritish Railways Ferry VanĒ lettering, subsequent ďThrough to the Continent with British RailwaysĒ branding and other versions with the BR double arrow and in departmental use.

Cheers

Ben A
(NGS VP)
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Bob G on January 05, 2020, 10:35:23 PM
Ben
That looks splendid.
Well done to all involved in this project.
Best
Bob
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: bridgiesimon on January 06, 2020, 12:00:36 AM
yep, defo looking good!

Looking forward to adding a few of these to my collection.

Best wishes
Simon
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: martyn on March 12, 2020, 09:03:49 PM
I've found another photo illustrating the wagon load concept, and in steam days;

'BR Steam surrender' by Roger Siviter.

Dated 16/9/66, at Dillicar; a Black 5 hauling, in order, an open wagon (tube?), three different 12T vans, a 10' wheelbase open, then two ferry vans.

The rest of the train is cut off after that.

martyn

Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: bluedepot on May 08, 2020, 09:08:29 PM
how far did they run into europe?

does anyone make an ho gauge british ferry wagon?

cheers


tim
Title: Re: Society Ferryvan project
Post by: Foxhound on July 28, 2020, 10:02:57 PM
Rather tempted to join the society and this has probably clinched it. Superb looking images.
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