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Your Layout and Models => Layout Planning => Topic started by: DarrwestLU6 on May 24, 2019, 12:28:47 PM

Title: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 24, 2019, 12:28:47 PM
Hi folks - I'm redesigning my layout having laid track as a first attempt, using the old method of paper templates, and pinned into place and built the basic scenic foundations and a helix up to a higher level.

I've got a parallel thread running on the construction BUT having played with it for a bit - I now want to make a few redesigns and thought I'd run this past you for comments and post in the LAYOUT PLANNING section. (Story so far on the build is at this thread: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=43358.msg536504#msg536504 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=43358.msg536504#msg536504) - it's on the wall!)

My main challenge at the moment is to redesign the main station throat so I can have a platform for six coaches plus loco - which I think I have achieved. I'm now using SCARM and carefully plotting the position of the existing track that won't move. Could you give me your comments on the diagram below for now - anyone see any problem with this so far?

In the picture crossing and turntable in white is fixed in position due to some other scenery. The red coloured track are new slips and crossings, and green is flexi-track. I am very much liking the fact that SCARM figures out if the flexi-track can be made to fit or not! I can now see how to achieve nice long platforms for 6 coach trains on the outside and 5 coach trains on the inside. I haven't drawn in the parcel goods bay and points yet.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/6745-240519121713-77744577.jpeg)

I know that the lower platform bay is only accessible directly to the outer line but can live with that. Trains from the other three can come/go to either main line, so that works for me. Also the engines coming into the platforms from the turntable can shuttle back and forth through the crossings and slips to get to the bay they want, I am OK with that, gives a bit of shunting fun...but am I missing anything obvious?

Any tips or suggestions welcome - I have a busy weekend so will get back on the track laying Bank Holiday Monday.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 24, 2019, 12:45:02 PM
Looking good. I just use pen and paper . The turntable looks tno close to the running line
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: jamespetts on May 25, 2019, 12:05:59 AM
From this diagram, it seems as though the turntable can only access the central two platforms: the upper platform has no access route, and the lower platform would have an access route if only that short crossing were a double slip.

I am not actually sure what the track object at the point of the central platforms is: it looks like a very, very small radius double slip, but, so far as I am aware, no such thing exists in either real or model form - or am I missing something...?

Did you perhaps want your engine shed to have a water tower and coaling stage?

Are you sure that there will be enough room for the points for the parcels/goods bay?

Is it essential that all of the station throat be after the junction to the main line loop? You might be able to achieve more (including possibly a nice headshunt to allow the bottom platform to be a departures platform, or else I am not sure how you are going to use it) by putting a scissors crossing, or alternatively a pair of crossovers, beyond the two points for the main line loop.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 26, 2019, 03:02:39 PM

Hi Chris - yes the track does run close to turntable, due to limitations of other bits of scenery, but I think I can just about get away with it!

Hi @jamespetts (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6774) - thanks for that. The longer double slip is Peco. The shorter slip at the point of the central platform is a short radius Minitrix 30 degrees one that I picked up on eBay. I tested it with some of my loco stock a few weeks back -see post and video here: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44600.15 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44600.15) - It is short radius but does the job and my locos take it!

You are right about turntable access though, I will have a think about that. My idea was that I’d be able to use a spare bay to get locos out and shunt them back and forth across the slips - but this only works if at least one central bay is empty...so will ponder some more.

The main lines to left of junction will be bidirectional so I can run trains in/out of the bottom bay.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 26, 2019, 04:06:46 PM
Bidirectional running useful. Turntable access points to think about
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: chrism on May 26, 2019, 04:25:59 PM
Do you have the space to shuffle the loco shed down a little so you could either use the uppermost track off the turntable as a headshunt with a point off that to meet the main lines between the two red points above the yard (albeit with a little juggling of the points needed), or tap the headshunt off that track leaving that track to still enter the shed?
That, if I'm reading your plan correctly would allow access to/from the loco yard from/to any of the platform roads.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: Bob G on May 26, 2019, 05:43:18 PM
I believe this plan below is based on the 1943 track layout at KX. Interesting to compare what they did in reality with your plan. You could have your locos on display rather than in a roundhouse and make it more prototypical...

Bob


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/1517-260519174126.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77814)
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 26, 2019, 06:57:22 PM
would tend to agree with chris m and james' s points - no pun intended and add headshunt and access to turntable,hence why i prefer pen paper sketches
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 26, 2019, 11:35:24 PM
@chrism (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7182), @crewearpley40 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3894), @Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517)  - thank you, all great comments. I think if I were to remove the round house, then this would free up some space to:
I'm just back from a busy weekend away so won't have time at this late hour to knock up the SCARM diagram, but I'll get to it in the morning and post up some new ideas. The beauty of doing it in SCARM is that I can quickly see if it will all fit in the available space.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 27, 2019, 05:47:39 AM
i was thinking alomg those lines and will reply tonight if NOT tired,after another day's work - i would aim for a headshunt and connect the lower bay to allow access to/from the loco yard from/to any of the platform roads., just could not think straight last night !!

Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: Bob G on May 27, 2019, 09:19:47 AM
I just googled Kings Cross Shed and there it was in images.
Its a very cramped space so its just like what we model!

Bob
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 27, 2019, 09:47:03 AM
Remember top link express engines would require a headshunt for preparing to back into the cross and similarly locos released would arrive in the headshunt to prepare for turning
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 30, 2019, 12:55:32 PM
These last few days I'm off for half term holidays so I have been busy re-laying track, here's a photo of one corner of the layout - a combination of spare bits of track, repositioned points, and some useful Peco templates!

I do enjoy the challenge of making everything fit just right, with nice looking curves. I don't know about you but even if I do design it in SCARM  to help me, nothing beats getting the track out and playing with it...I find I can visualise better that way! For me, there's something very satisfying about solving track problems and making it all look nice....I use a real coach to check the clearances on the curves whilst I am at it, to avoid problems later.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/6745-300519124404.jpeg)

I promise to put up another SCARM drawing later so you can see the ideas of the new approach, junction, station throat, and the new loco yard and head-shunt, thanks to your very helpful suggestions. Watch this space!
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: jpendle on May 30, 2019, 05:03:16 PM
You know you can always print the Scarm plan full size and put that on your baseboards to help with track alignment and positioning.

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 30, 2019, 06:44:51 PM
True - but I still like the hands approach! Here's latest diagram showing redesigned station approach. Not finished the right hand side drawing yet, to follow...

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/6745-300519184222.jpeg)

How does this compare now - I think I can get my engines turned and back on the coaches the other way and access all bays!
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 30, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
will discuss tomorrow re access to the turntable to the line without a platform, but much better.will comment later as busy !!
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: jamespetts on May 30, 2019, 09:24:35 PM
The access does seem rather better in this revised plan. I think that you might have got the "up" and "down" labels the wrong way around in the smaller text near the station throat, although it is right for the larger text on the top.

The track to the right of the Peco double slip has a straight section then a rather sharp curve - would you not be better off replacing this with a gentler curve, perhaps?

Also, if you are content to do some more redesigning, you might possibly (if it fits) optimise this plan a little more. If you remove the direct turntable access from the platforms, you can have longer platforms without any significant loss: you will still have the headshunt access, and this sort of direct access is not realistic in any event.

Going further, if you turn the headshunt nearest the turntable into a line that connects to the straight line towards the coal sidings (and therefore with access to the upper headshunt), you can avoid any use of the down main for a headshunt at all, improving capacity and reducing conflicts. You could still use what is now the lower headshunt as a headshunt as the trains would not have to go on to the other line.

I hope that this helps.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on May 30, 2019, 09:52:52 PM
WOULD AGREE with james, sorry had meeting to go to at the time and cannot type fast my thoughts. i would avoid shunting movements  conflicting with mainline running   !!!!
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on June 04, 2019, 04:17:35 PM
Had a great meeting with Chris on Friday (crewearpley40) at mine and walked through a revised track plan, checking it was pukka, and got some great ideas for industrial London backdrop and a canal - thank you Chris! I need to do my research on lineside warehouse scenes now...

I have been busy relaying the track as a priority, before my next business trip tomorrow when I'll be away from home a few days. I will republish the SCARM drawing on this thread soon, then I need to ask your advice about signals and where to put them!

In the meantime - I found a really nice old map of the old St. Pancras and King's Cross. I published the picture on a different thread under "Real Railways" here as reference: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=45505.msg571816#msg571816. (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=45505.msg571816#msg571816.)
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on June 04, 2019, 04:30:33 PM
this sprung to mind darren :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43506331@N05/albums/72157669523015626/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/43506331@N05/albums/72157669523015626/)

there are other layouts,but guess with your interpretation / layout, space available it maybe a case of lets scratchbuild buildings
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on June 11, 2019, 12:45:26 AM
Here’s the latest diagram of the base level section.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/78/6745-100619234931-783531628.jpeg)

It has taken in all your comments:

All bays are now accessible – rearranged slip and points. I have a separate siding with headshunt for the locos separate from the main line so they can come off the bays and go to the engine areas, coal, water etc or turntable.

Trains leave KX to the down main shown green and either loop around a bit or go to hidden sidings or fiddle yard. Trains from fiddle yard to layout enter hidden siding 1 then can cross to the down main (blue) and loop round a bit or go straight into KX. Trains from either main line can access the goods/parcel area just north of the station bays. Trains from the higher level (red line) can come down and join straight onto the Up Main (blue) and loop round. Trains to the higher level from the Down Main (green) need to cross to the Up Main (briefly) then take the fork to red branch (the branch is single line bi-directional working).

I will put up some diagrams of the intended scenics and a diagram of the upper level track layout later.

I hope you like the revised track plan – I am much happier with it!

Now I need some advice on the signalling… I have some coloured light signals for the lower section - where should I put the signals please, including shunt signals?
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on June 11, 2019, 03:43:11 AM
DARREN

we may have to arrange a time we can meet at hogwarts house
to fix the canal, buildings, mark off signals with a marker pen.
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on June 11, 2019, 11:53:33 AM
looking better that plan darren


here is  a link to shunt signals


https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134066-how-do-shunt-signals-work/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134066-how-do-shunt-signals-work/)

sort other bits out on 22nd
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: chrism on June 11, 2019, 12:33:00 PM
I hope you like the revised track plan – I am much happier with it!

That looks waaaay better than your original plan. The loco yard is both more functional and less cramped IMO.

The only thing I'd query is the headshunt which appears to serve no purpose. A headshunt is usually included so that a loco departs from the running lines into the headshunt and from there can be sent to wherever in the yard it needs to go. On your plan, they cannot access the headshunt from the running lines at all, except by entering the rest of the yard first.

Maybe you could repurpose that line as a siding for some purpose - storing coal wagons before or after going to the coaling stage, maybe?
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on June 11, 2019, 12:43:55 PM
maybe trying to allow for a loco to be positioned in a siding  rather than it be called a headshunt  so when the line is clear for that loco to be set back into the platforms. that your plan ?

would term it as a siding

otherwise looking much better
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on June 12, 2019, 11:22:31 AM
Thanks for all the comments!  :NGaugersRule:

Yes, agree with Chris' view, let's call it a siding rather than a headshunt. I will put a few section breaks in there too, each about 15cm-20cm long, so I can park 2-3 locos in said siding and isolate them!
Title: Re: KX to Hogwarts - track and signals ideas please
Post by: crewearpley40 on June 12, 2019, 11:52:58 AM
Hope the links came through ok. Sorry am real tired and will comment on later. Plan is looking much better