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General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: NGS-PO on January 07, 2019, 04:10:13 PM

Title: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on January 07, 2019, 04:10:13 PM
Poll now added.

After building several designs of small ballast hoppers in its early years, BR settled on the 19-ton ‘Catfish’ and 24-ton ‘Dogfish’ from 1955 onwards for its fleet of PW engineering hoppers in that size range.

The first of these to appear was a batch of Catfish built by Metro-Cammell to lot number 2682.  These are sometimes quoted as being built in 1953 but this is most likely the lot issue date, whilst actual construction took place in 1955.

Built to diagram 1/586, the Catfish had a shallow but fairly conventional looking hopper with a single chute discharging between the rails, unlike the later, and larger capacity, Dogfish which released it's load either side of the "four foot". At one end of the 14ft wheelbase wagon was a platform with a single door control wheel, the vacuum cylinder being mounted at the opposite end.

Over the subsequent six years, a further five lots were built, all by Metro-Cammell and all to the same diagram number, although later deliveries had roller bearings (instead of plain) and Oleo buffers (instead of the self-contained type). Wagons that were overhauled or repaired would also have been upgraded in the same way.

Livery was initially black, evolving to olive drab and finally grey with a yellow top band (“dutch”).  Under TOPS these wagons were coded ZEV-A with design codes ZE500A-C being issued to cover minor differences
Outwith those mentioned above, the Catfish underwent very few changes during their long careers.  In the early 1990s at least four Catfish were recoded ZSV (design codes ZS152A/B) falthough the reason for this is not known (the ZSx code covers types such as crane runners, match wagons and brake force vehicles.)

By 1999 there were still 289 ZEVs listed on TOPS, although by this date Catfish were all either withdrawn or in ”no maintenance” pool use.  In 2001 the numbers in stock had dropped to 63 ZEV (all stored).

Diagram D1/586 and were numbered:

1955:

Lot 2682/3 DB992531 - 650
Lot 2775 DB992651-710


1958:

Lot 2929 DB993508 -

566 built. (152 were still in service at 2/94)

(These were all built with oil axleboxes & self-contained buffers)

1960/61:

Lots 3039/3331 (DB983376 576/627)

These had Oleo buffers & roller bearings.

896 built (353 were still in service 2/94)

Catfish were originally allocated to the LMR, but from the late 60s spread onto the ScR & ER. Some were loaned to the SR in the 70s. Catfish worked with most other types of ballast hoppers, but were rarely seen in SR and WR areas.

Pros - Numerous examples produced, with minimal differences between batches
        - Three official liveries
        - Appropriate for layouts set from BR Early Crest through to late 90's post-privatisation
        - Very suitable for preserved railway layouts
        - Would compliment Dapol's Dogfish, NGS' Seacow, Revolution Sturgeon, DJM's Mermaid, NGS'/DJM's Shark (particularly the
           shark since the Catfish drops ballast in between the rails), etc
        - Equally realistic in ones or twos in a train or in a long rake
        - Despite being similar to the Dapol Dogfish, the latter is out of production now and Dapol have said it is uneconomic for them
           to assemble their current tooling the in current climate.

Cons - Struggling to think of any......... (watch this space)
        - Possibly too similar to the Dapol Dogfish (see above)


Best

Scott
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on January 07, 2019, 04:18:12 PM
Plenty images here:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcatfishzev

Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NeMo on January 07, 2019, 04:21:13 PM
Mixing Catfish and Dogfish in the same train seemed to happen a lot in real life, so I think this proposal is a welcome one.

On the other hand, they do look something like a simpler Dogfish, so perhaps a possibility for an NGS kit rather than an expensive RTR?

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on January 07, 2019, 04:28:43 PM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4877/45696816192_f24be3c1f3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cC58pf)Copy Pit-Bound Engineers At Hall Royd Junction (Michael McNicholas) (https://flic.kr/p/2cC58pf) by Neil Harvey 156 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1727/27838329217_45f104ca11_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JpYHpp)40164 Deane Clough (https://flic.kr/p/JpYHpp) by David Chamberlain (https://www.flickr.com/photos/25762703@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4132/4965089410_146c3257b6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/8yKo6Q)Hi-Res R0573 (https://flic.kr/p/8yKo6Q) by Bill Wright (https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4907/44358019760_cbd3bd14ab_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2azLrS9)MUNDANE (https://flic.kr/p/2azLrS9) by Tom Derrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/96836395@N05/), on Flickr

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8343/8176421239_dfd01d24b2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/dswiaZ)HELWITH BRIDGE 19TH DECEMBER 2000 (https://flic.kr/p/dswiaZ) by Lord Stamp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/81899355@N04/), on Flickr

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5307/5887544258_8b953e2393_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/9YgcML)ZEV DB983668 and ZUV DB993922 (https://flic.kr/p/9YgcML) by Steve Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7522/16173480501_ff8b5d03d3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qDcjh6)47550 Clay Cross 01-03-95 (https://flic.kr/p/qDcjh6) by Wilbert B (https://www.flickr.com/photos/75892080@N06/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/346/32588207442_64670483b0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RDH5Hy)RIBBLEHEAD PEAK! (https://flic.kr/p/RDH5Hy) by Tom Derrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/96836395@N05/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: exmouthcraig on January 07, 2019, 04:30:44 PM
Mixing Catfish and Dogfish in the same train seemed to happen a lot in real life, so I think this proposal is a welcome one.

On the other hand, they do look something like a simpler Dogfish, so perhaps a possibility for an NGS kit rather than an expensive RTR?

Cheers, NeMo

Sounds like an episode for the 'troublesome truucks' or do Catfish and Dogfish not fight???

 :uneasy:
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Newportnobby on January 07, 2019, 04:39:49 PM
Yep. I'd be in for a couple of triple packs if they were done, and can see this selling pretty well.
They'd go well with the 16 Dogfish I have.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: red_death on January 07, 2019, 04:52:41 PM
I think that Catfish would be a great model (and I hope that others do as well!). Some of the best pictures (IMHO) of engineers trains are a mix of Dogfish and Catfish (and Sharks/Mermaids etc).


@Nemo - as to the question of kit vs RTR.  RTR outsells kits by a considerable factor and I'm not convinced that a. a Catfish would be that simple a kit or b. that it would be much cheaper as a kit.  What you gain on assembly/production costs from a kit you lose on lower sales (tooling costs won't be radically different as you're still tooling the same parts!).

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Thorpe Parva on January 07, 2019, 04:58:40 PM
I've gone for 5-10. Will complement my Dogfish, Mermaids, Grampuses etc. Also I wish that Dapol would produce more Dogfish. DJM really needs to produce the RTR Sharks ASAP.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on January 07, 2019, 05:02:14 PM
Some more inspiration:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4812/46080754412_1417fa19e5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZURJ)Ballast Train Of Fire (Michael McNicholas) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZURJ) by Neil Harvey 156 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7247/7843277844_6dee6f4045_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/cX5Rfm)19860125 020 Watford Junction.  BR 19.5T CATFISH ZEV DB983416 (https://flic.kr/p/cX5Rfm) by 15038 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7821/45618241275_ed7ee4513e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cv8pPi)Going "Dutch" in 94! (2). 47346 Castle Donnington 090394 (8E85) (https://flic.kr/p/2cv8pPi) by Michael Hart (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151904976@N08/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7087/7215137970_2e3ce59130_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/bZzt9w)19860510 004 Watford Junction BR 19T CATFISH ZEV DB983869 (https://flic.kr/p/bZzt9w) by 15038 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/), on Flickr

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3486/3267212057_3418f87515_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/5YHjjn)40022 Horbury stone train, 9 Aug 1983 (https://flic.kr/p/5YHjjn) by Bob the Lomond (https://www.flickr.com/photos/bobthelomond/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4137/4745298144_7d7e82a94a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/8ejTPf)English Electric moment at Loughborough (https://flic.kr/p/8ejTPf) by Kevin Lane (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: JBQFC on January 07, 2019, 05:10:50 PM
i voted for 3 or 4 but looking at the photos i think i would go for 7 or 8 now
would look good mixed in with the Dapol dogfish and DJM mermaids

John
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on January 07, 2019, 05:17:52 PM
This web page has a wealth of Catfish images on Penmaenmawr stone workings:

http://www.6g.nwrail.org.uk/stonetrains.html (http://www.6g.nwrail.org.uk/stonetrains.html)
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NeMo on January 07, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
@Nemo - as to the question of kit vs RTR.  RTR outsells kits by a considerable factor and I'm not convinced that a. a Catfish would be that simple a kit or b. that it would be much cheaper as a kit.  What you gain on assembly/production costs from a kit you lose on lower sales (tooling costs won't be radically different as you're still tooling the same parts!).

True, @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246), but the NGS did do an etched brass Sealion (or Seacow, can't remember off the top of my head). It was really difficult to make, and I gave up mine about halfway through. Probably wasn't the best choice of first ever wagon kit!!!  ;)

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: bees on January 07, 2019, 08:00:42 PM
@Nemo - as to the question of kit vs RTR.  RTR outsells kits by a considerable factor and I'm not convinced that a. a Catfish would be that simple a kit or b. that it would be much cheaper as a kit.  What you gain on assembly/production costs from a kit you lose on lower sales (tooling costs won't be radically different as you're still tooling the same parts!).

True, @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246), but the NGS did do an etched brass Sealion (or Seacow, can't remember off the top of my head). It was really difficult to make, and I gave up mine about halfway through. Probably wasn't the best choice of first ever wagon kit!!!  ;)

Cheers, NeMo

I have a few of the NGS Seacow and a Sealion, they were already built when I bought them, they have been very well built by somebody else and after looking at them I can see how awkward they would be to build. I have however recently bought a few of the Salmon Kits, I must say what great kits they are and very enjoyable to build too, I would highly recommend them to you for building your confidence for making kits.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NeMo on January 07, 2019, 08:25:41 PM
I have a few of the NGS Seacow and a Sealion, they were already built when I bought them, they have been very well built by somebody else and after looking at them I can see how awkward they would be to build. I have however recently bought a few of the Salmon Kits, I must say what great kits they are and very enjoyable to build too, I would highly recommend them to you for building your confidence for making kits.

Thanks for the tip! Have built a few other kits since, but still not sure I'd go back to the Sealion any time soon. But the Salmon looks interesting, and as/when NGS kits are all back on sale, I'll might well try that one out. Always like a good departmental!

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Roy L S on January 08, 2019, 05:26:20 PM
Three or four would find their way onto my layout for sure. Ideal companion for the DJM Shark if and when it goes into production (or failing that the NGS kit one that is already available).


Roy
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: GScaleBruce on January 08, 2019, 06:21:12 PM
Three or four in olive green would find their way onto Peterhampton Junction, I'm sure. I'd love to see any photos of them on the Southern Region - I haven't found any yet - and I do realise from the earlier posts that this may be optimistic...
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on January 19, 2019, 05:34:01 AM
Bump.

Polling closes 6th February.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Newportnobby on January 19, 2019, 12:59:04 PM
At present you have pledges for between 140 and 260 wagons. Has the question been asked anywhere else e.g. RMWeb and, if so, what sort of numbers do you think you have overall so far?
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on February 06, 2019, 03:52:26 PM
Final Bump .
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: bluedepot on February 06, 2019, 04:05:21 PM
good idea for a new wagon

new sealions might be a good seller too


Tim
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: red_death on February 06, 2019, 04:54:56 PM
I don't know how we can encourage greater use of the polls on here, but they have the potential to be really useful so it is disappointing that Scott's poll has only had about 60 responses!

If Dapol's dogfish is right for you then the catfish is a perfect companion as they pretty much ran in the same rakes for a lot of their life. I'm assuming that Dapol's dogfish sold OK.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on February 06, 2019, 05:02:15 PM
In fairness, Mike, I just looked at the 35T Tanker poll, and it only got 67 respondents.....

That said, it’s still disappointing considering the number of NGF members.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Skyline2uk on February 07, 2019, 12:24:26 PM
Completely missed this poll

Would have been in for at least a triple pack, preferably in Dutch. These would be added to my Dogfish, Sealion, Seacow, Gampus, Salmon (kit in the works), Shark (kit in the works) and of course Sturgeon (can’t wait for those).

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: emjaybee on February 07, 2019, 12:56:59 PM
Polls on here seem to be odd things.

Some while back I had a crack at a poll on 'The Twins'. It was a bit amateur 'ish in that I like them, they always come in the top 2 or 3 in the 'wish list' polls and I didn't think about researching their depth, scope, time frame etc.

It got limited responses, to the point of about 80 theoretical units.

Yet, if you ran the wish list polls in the internet again, a pound to a penny they'd be in the top 3...    ...again.

I'm also pretty sure that if someone manufactured them and put them up for sale they'd probably shift 1,500 of them, yet the NGF poll indicates otherwise. Much like the poll at the same time for Falcon or Kestrel or whatever it was.

Go figure!

 :hmmm:

Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Newportnobby on February 07, 2019, 01:10:27 PM
At present you have pledges for between 140 and 260 wagons. Has the question been asked anywhere else e.g. RMWeb and, if so, what sort of numbers do you think you have overall so far?

This question was not answered. The issue with a single forum like this is despite having 6500 or so members how many actually are actively involved? Far less than 5% I'll guess at.
I still think the Catfish would be a winner but realise you're after a more accurate response than that
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on February 07, 2019, 01:34:23 PM
Apologies Mick, for not responding to this. I must have missed it.

It was only run here. In the past, notably with the Falcon poll, I attempted to advertise on other platforms and was met with such comments as "You'll never get enough interest" and the old chestnut "You could always try and do some real modelling and build a kit/kitbash instead of wanting everything on a plate" etc.  My state of mind lately does not fancy going down that road again.

From memory I didn't advertise the 35T Tankers anywhere else either.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: red_death on February 07, 2019, 02:03:47 PM
Just to give a bit of context, when we've done expressions of interest (not always necessary) for wagons we've typically had interest in 2000-3000+ wagons, for the latest powered offering (APT-E) I can't remember the latest figure but it was high 100s (for something that we'd only expect most people to buy 1 of).

This is absolutely no criticism of Scott who I thought put forward a very compelling case (and he knows I'm convinced that a Catfish would make a great model!). 

I'm just trying to understand why people don't vote in these sorts of polls/expressions of interest - if you're not interested in a model of the prototype I can understand not responding but I don't believe that only 47 people are interested in a Catfish - regardless of who produces a model and when, it is a great way of demonstrating that there would be a market for such a model.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Thorpe Parva on February 07, 2019, 02:15:29 PM
I pledged for the 5-10 option above. I was also one of the Posters on the Catfish thread on the Dapol Digest website. Hard to believe that this was 2.5 years ago. I'm also convinced that a re-run of the Dapol Dogfish would be popular; I would certainly take half a dozen.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: Fardap on February 07, 2019, 03:47:11 PM
Just to give a bit of context, when we've done expressions of interest (not always necessary) for wagons we've typically had interest in 2000-3000+ wagons, for the latest powered offering (APT-E) I can't remember the latest figure but it was high 100s (for something that we'd only expect most people to buy 1 of).

This is absolutely no criticism of Scott who I thought put forward a very compelling case (and he knows I'm convinced that a Catfish would make a great model!). 

I'm just trying to understand why people don't vote in these sorts of polls/expressions of interest - if you're not interested in a model of the prototype I can understand not responding but I don't believe that only 47 people are interested in a Catfish - regardless of who produces a model and when, it is a great way of demonstrating that there would be a market for such a model.

Cheers, Mike

Maybe we need a polls section and maybe someone can offer a prize for one random entry in the poll - people always do something to get the chance of something for free...
Another society (theatre) I am involved in proved this by seeing how many more emails were read when the subject contained the word FREE in it, even if there wasn't anything of significance...

Steve

Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: bees on February 22, 2019, 09:54:35 AM
My personal opinion, I do respond to these Polls, but only if it's something I know in the 1st place (I do think the pictures help to give some context) and if it's something I am definitely interested in.
If I see the word FREE in an email I ALWAYS  scroll straight past it.

Thanks
Steven
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: crepello on February 22, 2019, 04:07:53 PM
Completely missed this poll

Would have been in for at least a triple pack, preferably in Dutch. These would be added to my Dogfish, Sealion, Seacow, Gampus, Salmon (kit in the works), Shark (kit in the works) and of course Sturgeon (can’t wait for those).

Skyline2uk
Not the only one who missed it!  I'd be up for 2 or 3 Catfish in black or olive. My first port of call most days is RM Web so I'd prefer any polls to be on there too.
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: NGS-PO on February 24, 2019, 07:07:57 PM
For those that missed thsi poll, there is a second on RMWeb here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142559-catfish-would-you-be-interested-in-helping-revolution-trains-crowdfund-an-n-gauge-catfish-engineering-ballast-hopper/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142559-catfish-would-you-be-interested-in-helping-revolution-trains-crowdfund-an-n-gauge-catfish-engineering-ballast-hopper/)

Best

Scott
Title: Re: Catfish - Crowdfunding Suggestion for Revolution Trains &/or Sonic Models
Post by: crepello on February 25, 2019, 11:17:16 AM
For those that missed thsi poll, there is a second on RMWeb here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142559-catfish-would-you-be-interested-in-helping-revolution-trains-crowdfund-an-n-gauge-catfish-engineering-ballast-hopper/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142559-catfish-would-you-be-interested-in-helping-revolution-trains-crowdfund-an-n-gauge-catfish-engineering-ballast-hopper/)

Best

Scott

Thanks for that Scott--now completed. Great photos too!