N Gauge Forum

General Category => Real Railway Discussion => Topic started by: malc-c on February 01, 2018, 01:05:09 PM

Title: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: malc-c on February 01, 2018, 01:05:09 PM
The other week I heard on the grape vine that one of the original Eurostars was being dragged through a local station on its way to the scrap yard.

Not wanting to miss the opportunity to document its last journey I grabbed the video camera and camped out on the platform in the small hours of a Saturday morning



I also managed to capture the mail train running through...  Hope you enjoy the video

Malc
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: PostModN66 on February 01, 2018, 01:10:36 PM
What an interesting video Malc, brilliant  :thankyousign:

Interesting that they are scrapping a whole train at once.

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: RailGooner on February 01, 2018, 01:30:05 PM
Those sets being scrapped now, should at least receive a more dignified end than set 3017-3018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr1IFYBuavQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr1IFYBuavQ)

 :'(
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: malc-c on February 01, 2018, 01:34:03 PM
I'm no expert, but afterwards I did find a discussion on a forum which seems to suggest that this was around the 7th or 8th of the 1st generation Eurostar classes that has been dragged up the ECML and across to the scrap yard.  Here's a screen grab of the scrap yard, which would seem to back that up given the number of locos in the sidings.

(http://micro-heli.co.uk/kingsbury.jpg)

They had been in service some 20+ years clocking up millions of miles at high speed, and although half a dozen of the fleet have been part of a refurbishment plan, it was cheaper and more efficient to scrap the remainder and buy new, more modern classes.

It's sad really, but I guess in the name of progress and all that....

Glad you liked the video.  Feel free to drop by my youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuGA3LeHihrw798IKc04wfw/videos?&ab_channel=MalcolmCrabbe (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuGA3LeHihrw798IKc04wfw/videos?&ab_channel=MalcolmCrabbe) where I have a few more videos of charter trains and unusual workings

Malc
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: malc-c on February 01, 2018, 01:35:30 PM
Those sets being scrapped now, should at least receive a more dignified end than set 3017-3018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr1IFYBuavQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr1IFYBuavQ)

 :'(

Yeah, sad to see it just being left there to rot. 
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: emjaybee on February 01, 2018, 01:45:21 PM
I find I don't get sentimental about this, it's just an aluminium extrusion with wheels and windows.

Efficient and comfortable it may well have been, but to me it has no soul. Steam engines have a living, breathing soul and have a presence, as too do some (I can't believe I'm saying this!) diesel locos.

Feel free to hate me, I can take it.

 :D
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: daffy on February 01, 2018, 01:46:21 PM
Those sets being scrapped now, should at least receive a more dignified end than set 3017-3018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr1IFYBuavQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr1IFYBuavQ)

 :'(

Isn't that just the pre-cleanup video after a post-match party on board? :D
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: RailGooner on February 01, 2018, 01:47:30 PM
 :laughabovepost: :smiley-laughing:
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: malc-c on February 01, 2018, 01:55:17 PM
I find I don't get sentimental about this, it's just an aluminium extrusion with wheels and windows.

Efficient and comfortable it may well have been, but to me it has no soul. Steam engines have a living, breathing soul and have a presence, as too do some (I can't believe I'm saying this!) diesel locos.

Feel free to hate me, I can take it.

 :D

Oh I agree, a kettle has more character than some modern traction.

I think what's also sad, especially for future generations, is the way railways are now becoming boring with trains missing their individuality.  I'm in my 50's so grew up with deltics, brush type 2's and 4' etc, so as a kid it was exciting to see the variation that went passed.  Anyone modelling modern day traction today, can do so by having 125's and 225's on a oval of track as each passing of the same train mimics that of real life.  I get bored these days when I venture out for a few hour to video the trains whilst I wait for a steam special or charter train hauled by an old class 47 as every mainline train looks and sound the same.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 01, 2018, 04:46:44 PM
Talk about repetitive and boring.

I saw a trainspotter the other day on the platform at the Windsor main station taking down the number of the 165 Turbo as it departed.

I wonder how long he stood there before realizing its a shuttle to Slough and is the same train all day.  :D
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: EtchedPixels on February 01, 2018, 11:58:36 PM
I do hope they preserve one of them as part of the NRM collection when the final ones go (somehow .. I appreciate it's a bit long). They are a piece of railway history.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: colpatben on February 02, 2018, 08:59:50 AM
Talk about repetitive and boring.

I saw a trainspotter the other day on the platform at the Windsor main station taking down the number of the 165 Turbo as it departed.

I wonder how long he stood there before realizing its a shuttle to Slough and is the same train all day.  :D

And when he got fed up he moved to Maidenhead station to log the165 of the Marlow Donkey  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlow_branch_line)
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: woodbury22uk on February 02, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
One power car has found a useful afterlife in engineering training which may have a relevance to HS2. Another livery variation.........

http://www.birminghamupdates.com/eurostar-arrives-in-birmingham-as-training-for-high-speed-rail-college/ (http://www.birminghamupdates.com/eurostar-arrives-in-birmingham-as-training-for-high-speed-rail-college/)
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: GroupC on February 02, 2018, 09:19:38 AM
I do hope they preserve one of them as part of the NRM collection when the final ones go (somehow .. I appreciate it's a bit long). They are a piece of railway history.


They've already got a power car, in the Great Hall - makes a nice display with the other high speeders close by such as Mallard and Duchess of Hamilton.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/planavisit/events/eurostar (http://www.nrm.org.uk/planavisit/events/eurostar)
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: RailGooner on February 02, 2018, 10:14:22 AM
One power car has found a useful afterlife in engineering training which may have a relevance to HS2. Another livery variation.........

[url]http://www.birminghamupdates.com/eurostar-arrives-in-birmingham-as-training-for-high-speed-rail-college/[/url] ([url]http://www.birminghamupdates.com/eurostar-arrives-in-birmingham-as-training-for-high-speed-rail-college/[/url])

The National College for High Speed Rail (NCHSR) has 2 Power Cars - 3101 and 3102. There's the lilac liveried one '#BrumStar' at the Birmingham Campus, and a turquoise liveried one '#DonnyStar' at the Doncaster Campus. I lost track of their loco numbers when reliveried.


I do hope they preserve one of them as part of the NRM collection when the final ones go (somehow .. I appreciate it's a bit long). They are a piece of railway history.


They've already got a power car, in the Great Hall - makes a nice display with the other high speeders close by such as Mallard and Duchess of Hamilton.

[url]http://www.nrm.org.uk/planavisit/events/eurostar[/url] ([url]http://www.nrm.org.uk/planavisit/events/eurostar[/url])

The Power Car at the NRM is 3308.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: EtchedPixels on February 03, 2018, 12:08:54 AM
Yeah I know they have a few power cars but they need to preserve a unit - at least a short configuration IMHO
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: emjaybee on February 03, 2018, 12:40:13 AM
Yeah I know they have a few power cars but they need to preserve a unit - at least a short configuration IMHO

Why on earth preserve a whole unit? Other than the power/driving cars, most other carriages are difficult to differentiate between Eurostar/Voyager/Pendolino for your average Joe (or me, for that matter) except for liveries. They're all (to my eyes) just efficient, aerodynamic, generic coaches.

 ???
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: RailGooner on February 03, 2018, 01:07:31 AM
Are there any articulated coaches of any era in preservation/conservation in the UK? If not, then that would be one reason for conserving a couple of coaches.

PC + Standard + Bar-Buffet + Premier, with alongside them, a G Gauge model of a full 2 PCs + 18 coaches set. :thumbsup: One of the Class 9000 freight locos needs to be conserved also. And let's have a model of that in-train too. Both locos are an essential part of one of the most significant engineering achievements in UK history. Significant enough to move borders!
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: Atso on February 03, 2018, 07:35:01 AM
Are there any articulated coaches of any era in preservation/conservation in the UK? If not, then that would be one reason for conserving a couple of coaches.

ATP and LNER quad set off the top of my head.

I'm not a massive fan of the modern railway but do like the Eurostars and agree that one should be marked for preservation.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: NeMo on February 03, 2018, 09:11:24 AM
Efficient and comfortable it may well have been, but to me it has no soul. Steam engines have a living, breathing soul and have a presence, as too do some (I can't believe I'm saying this!) diesel locos.
Feel free to hate me, I can take it.

The problem with this is that it's exactly how people felt about the prototype and first generation diesels during the 1960s and early 70s. None of the prototypes were saved as far as I know -- it seems incredible that 10001 for example wasn't cut up until 1968, and D601 survived, more or less, until 1980! But at the time people thought diesels were going to be around forever, and besides, preserving steam was more important...

But then again, any number of classic steam locomotives were lost in the 40s and 50s for exactly the same reason. Plenty of steam around, no real hurry, and people didn't think preserving steam locomotives was really practical outside of the national collection and perhaps one or two tank engines on private lines.

Going back into the 1930s, we lost even more when the likes of Churchward and Stanier had 'clear outs' of the few old (often Victorian) locos that the larger 'works' like Swindon and Derby had been keeping in unofficial preservation. Churchward had gotten rid of the last two broad gauge locos in existence, while Stanier got rid of a number of Kirtley, Johnson and other designs that we would now see as literally irreplaceable.

Like you, I personally couldn't give a rip about the Eurostars. But curating a museum collection is about communicating with the future, not the 'now'. It would strike me as insane if, at the very least, a power car hadn't, and a single coach doesn't, end up in the NRM. The Channel Tunnel was surely a huge achievement in Anglo-French engineering and politics, and to preserve something from the initial stages that people in the future can experience has to be a priority.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: exmouthcraig on February 03, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
The NRM has one of the  the muck trucks used for hauling all the spoil away from the construction of the tunnel and a small piece about the infrastructure that was created just to build the tunnel.

It IS a magnificent piece of engineering that we should remain proud of. The disappointing thing about the tunnel is there's not a huge amount of information available about it and the story behind it collated together.

Surely there's a demand for a museum to be built that can tell the historical story behind all the attempts the money the decisions the construction the stock that was built (wasn't the class 92???? (IIRC) built purely to run freight through only for it to sit in sidings some years later??) 

A full working museum with the HUGE n gauge layout built as the centre piece complete with a FULL rake of eurostar set??

Maybe just wishful thinking but seems to me like a damn good idea

Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: LeftToMyOwnDevices on February 03, 2018, 04:15:50 PM
A full working museum with the HUGE n gauge layout built as the centre piece complete with a FULL rake of eurostar set??

Maybe just wishful thinking but seems to me like a damn good idea

Does anyone remember the Folkestone Eurotunnel Information Centre that was built opposite (what is now) the Cheriton Eurotunnel Terminal...?

I remember visiting it - if only to see and admire the N Gauge layout that they had there, which was a representation of what it would be, when complete. I seem to recall the line went under a goldfish tank (to represent the Channel) to the Calais Terminal. :laugh3:

Not exactly sure what happened to that N Gauge layout, but I did hear someone say that the layout was 'life-expired' by the time the Information Centre closed (and the real thing had opened).

I am quite upset that the original Eurostar units are being scrapped. So upset that I am seriously tempted to buy a Kato set (in original livery) of the 8-car set, plus two 4-car extension packs. That should give me a Regional Eurostar set, I believe.

There are various issues around the scrapping: one is that as Eurostar own them outright, they don't want them falling into 'enemy' hands. In other words, they don't want another operator getting hold of them and operating a competing service. :o

I understand that they are retaining a handful of them. Think these might be the ones that SNCF 'hot-wired' to operate on 1.5kV DC overhead. That enabled them to operate the Ski Service and other services to the South of France. 8)

The real reason for the retention of (some of) these original Eurostar units is that they are the only way that they can serve Ashford International. Apparently, the platforms there are only fitted with AWS/TPWS signalling. The newer Eurostar units are not fitted with this (they only have TVM430, plus the relevant SNCF/SNCB systems). I have heard that they are now going to fit TVM430 to the platforms at Ashford International, so that could mean that the whole lot will go for scrap... :'(

Whilst it would be lovely to preserve a whole unit, I think that is going to be seriously impractical, for a variety of reasons. :( The most we can expect is the power cars (as at the NRM and elsewhere). It would be nice to keep the leading car, as that actually has traction motors in it - and would give a representation of how they squeezed a TGV design into the British Loading gauge. Now that's quite a feat of engineering...! :D

Hope this information helps - and I'm sure others might correct any inaccuracies in any of the above.

Meanwhile, you all have my condolences for the scrapping of these unique trains. Now, where's that Train Trax pop-up, to order that Kato set... ;)

Charles.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: njee20 on February 03, 2018, 04:29:31 PM
There was an exhibition centre at Folkestone, featuring CJM LeShuttle trains and Kato Eurostars, dunno what happened to it, think it closed soon after the tunnel opened ironically.

You could say it’s a bit of a failure - passenger numbers were dropping (dunno if they still are), freight never hit the targets, we never got the Nightstar Sleeper services. 92s did/do operate through the tunnel, but DB have actually lost the licences to use them on domestic routes I understand, but then they’re complex locos and there’s no shortage of traction.

Would be good to see a short rake saved though certainly.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: RailGooner on February 03, 2018, 04:40:15 PM
..
 Does anyone remember the Folkestone Eurotunnel Information Centre that was built opposite (what is now) the Cheriton Eurotunnel Terminal...?
...

Yes, I do. I never got to see it in the flesh, just magazine pictures. Weren't CJM heavily involved? Wasn't that how the CJM Class 9000 and wagon kits came to be?
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: njee20 on February 03, 2018, 06:42:15 PM
Yep, exactly.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: LeftToMyOwnDevices on February 03, 2018, 07:39:15 PM
There was an exhibition centre at Folkestone, featuring CJM LeShuttle trains and Kato Eurostars, dunno what happened to it, think it closed soon after the tunnel opened ironically.

I believe that may have been the intention, all along.
The Information Centre overlooked the actual site (and had a viewing deck for that purpose, if I recall correctly).

There was quite a need to explain to Joe Public what on earth that massive building site was in aid of. We all knew what was being built, but we were the minority... :D

You could say it’s a bit of a failure - passenger numbers were dropping (dunno if they still are), freight never hit the targets, we never got the Nightstar Sleeper services. 92s did/do operate through the tunnel, but DB have actually lost the licences to use them on domestic routes I understand, but then they’re complex locos and there’s no shortage of traction.

Oh I know, it's all too sad for words. :(
I was working for Freightliners Ltd (as was, in 1988-9) as it was merged into Railfreight Distribution (RfD), with so much real, genuine hope for the opening of the forthcoming Channel Tunnel. :-[

When I build my 'ultimate' N Gauge layout, I want to show something of what could have been... Hence I have so many Cargowaggens (Dapol already; and twins on order from Revolution). I am also amassing lots of container wagons: Farish, Dapol and others (KFAs...!). Might just get that Kato (Regional) Eurostar. ;)

As for the Class 92, I was on way to the Longfield show (Erith MRS) when I caught a sight of a Class 92 running light engine in the opposite direction...! :goggleeyes: It was on the four-track section between Bromley South and Swanley, so on Third Rail 750dc. I had thought they were effectively banned from that now, according to a DB Class 92 driver I spoke to. :confused1: For those interested, it was 'Couperin' in original RfD Triple Grey. Yes, I have 4 of them on order from our friends at Revolution... :)

Charles.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: njee20 on February 03, 2018, 08:10:58 PM
92044 is operated by GBRF, who do still have the relevant licences to use them on normal domestic routes. It’s DBS who don’t.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: PostModN66 on February 03, 2018, 09:02:37 PM
There was an exhibition centre at Folkestone, featuring CJM LeShuttle trains and Kato Eurostars, dunno what happened to it, think it closed soon after the tunnel opened ironically.

I’ve got one of the CJM class 92s from it.

Cheers Jon :)
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: BrakeCoach on February 13, 2018, 08:08:07 AM
The other week I heard on the grape vine that one of the original Eurostars was being dragged through a local station on its way to the scrap yard.

Not wanting to miss the opportunity to document its last journey I grabbed the video camera and camped out on the platform in the small hours of a Saturday morning



I also managed to capture the mail train running through...  Hope you enjoy the video

Malc
Its not related to this, but I could imagine the Intercity 225s, 125s, and Class 90s in the scrapyard after the Japanese trains take over.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: ntpntpntp on February 13, 2018, 09:04:17 AM
There was an exhibition centre at Folkestone, featuring CJM LeShuttle trains and Kato Eurostars, dunno what happened to it, think it closed soon after the tunnel opened ironically.

The Folkestone end of the layout is still running at a little museum at Peene right next to the terminal's reverse loop.  I have a couple of bits and pieces of stock (worn-out Kato TGV parts etc.)

The exhibition centre building still exists, not exactly sure what it's used for right now (it was LoveWorld -
 "God's Embassy" at one point!)

My offices are in the former call centre building so I have a view of the terminal.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: RailGooner on February 13, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
..
The exhibition centre building still exists, not exactly sure what it's used for right now (it was LoveWorld -
 "God's Embassy" at one point!)
...

 :-[ What happens in LoveWorld, stays in LoveWorld!
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: Skyline2uk on February 13, 2018, 10:32:30 PM
 :(

The main theme of this thread makes me so sad.

When I was 8, the Channel Tunnel was the single best thing going on in engineering (oh I did/do adore Concorde, but we all thought she was here to stay....oh lord  :'().

The Kato Eurostar was my ultimate ultimate wish list present, Ferrari at the school gates cool (to me)....and I had the best surprise and subsequent Christmas ever when I was 10 and got one (plus expansion set, which I opened first, which kept the surprise going....).

I also avidly read all the articles I could about the 92 (pre internet, bought magazines just for those pictures) and many many years later got my CJM 92022.

I got to go to Belgium from St Pancras (and back) once, never managed it out of Waterloo (sat and watched loads of sets coming and going though).

Seeing the 373 sets going to scrap makes me feel old....

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: themadhippy on February 13, 2018, 11:12:42 PM
wonder if anyone bought the second hand tunneling machine that was parked beside the M20,with a for sale sign,1 careful owner.It was there a good few months as we passed it  several times  on our,at the time,regular trips  to and from germany
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: Dr Al on February 14, 2018, 12:41:25 AM
wonder if anyone bought the second hand tunneling machine that was parked beside the M20,with a for sale sign,1 careful owner.It was there a good few months as we passed it  several times  on our,at the time,regular trips  to and from germany


Yes it sold for £39899. the money was split between 3 charities

[url]http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/40000-buys-channel-tunnel-dril-a12566/[/url] ([url]http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/40000-buys-channel-tunnel-dril-a12566/[/url])


Wonder what happened to it after that!?

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 14, 2018, 12:43:21 AM
wonder if anyone bought the second hand tunneling machine that was parked beside the M20,with a for sale sign,1 careful owner.It was there a good few months as we passed it  several times  on our,at the time,regular trips  to and from germany


Yes it sold for £39899. the money was split between 3 charities

[url]http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/40000-buys-channel-tunnel-dril-a12566/[/url] ([url]http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/40000-buys-channel-tunnel-dril-a12566/[/url])


Wonder what happened to it after that!?

Cheers,
Alan


Scrap
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: Jollybob on February 14, 2018, 01:54:32 AM
I think it was a complete waste of a perfectly good piece of rolling stock. Surely someone must have thought why don't we use these trains on the national network? Shorten them down slightly which will leave them with plenty of spares and use them on the electrified networks.
There always seems to be a passenger train shortage in this country. Let's use them!
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: malc-c on February 14, 2018, 02:15:44 AM
I think it was a complete waste of a perfectly good piece of rolling stock. Surely someone must have thought why don't we use these trains on the national network? Shorten them down slightly which will leave them with plenty of spares and use them on the electrified networks.
There always seems to be a passenger train shortage in this country. Let's use them!

From reading up on these, the reasons were several fold.  Loading gauge restricted the lines they can run on, hence why this was dragged from St Pancras up the ECML and then across to the scrap yard rather then go up the midland main line.  Also their length meant serious investment in modding platforms etc to accommodate them, even the sets that were nicknamed "north of london" sets were still quite long.  There was also power issues, and at the time the power delivery couldn't handle the current draw, especially if both power cars were employed.  There were apparently reports that they frequently tripped the grid at kings cross.

It is sad to see these being retired and then scrapped, but I guess that it's a case of economics and its cheaper to buy new efficient trains with all the mod cons than upgrade and refurbish 20-25 year old stock.
Title: Re: Scrapping Eurostars
Post by: njee20 on February 14, 2018, 08:02:07 AM
They’re very complex too, as they’re basically two trains joined together, and they’ve got all the redundant cab signalling equipment. It’s a nice theory, but they weren’t a viable prospect on the ECML when they weren’t knackered...