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General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: emjaybee on September 20, 2017, 11:19:01 PM

Title: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 20, 2017, 11:19:01 PM
My brain was jogged out of a weary fuzz this afternoon by a post I read on here today.

From what I remember, the last annual "Wish List" poll came back with "The Twins" ,LMS loco's 10000 and 10001, in at number 5 in the "Most Wanted" category.

As they don't have a complicated motion, my brain says that "They can't be any more complicated than a Class 92 to produce".

So I thought I'd pop a poll in here to see if any of the Crowdfunding manufactures could be tempted and to find out if people really are that keen to get hold of them.

(Mods: I apologise if this is in the wrong place.)

 :admiration:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Roy L S on September 21, 2017, 12:41:31 AM

Iconic certainly, two manufacturers did them in 00. I would buy one for sure.

I can't help feeling though that of the few remaining diesels to produce the Metrovick Co-Bo would be the more viable given that one survives.

Roy
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: AndyRA on September 21, 2017, 01:14:04 AM
These Resin bodied ones were quite easy to do, just a few things to add to the body and paint, and went onto a Farish 47 chassis with just the bogie frames to change.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/5731-210917011305.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56025)
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 21, 2017, 07:53:07 AM
I cannot lie, after putting the poll up it did occur to me that there isn't a "real" one to run round with a tape measure, but the fact that they have been produced in OO as rtr and that a group of enthusiasts are/were planning to build a replica makes me think the information must be out there.

 :hmmm:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: PLD on September 21, 2017, 07:55:31 AM
I'm interested yes...

But to be pedantic Option 1 in the poll "Both in LMS Livery" is historically inaccurate. Only 10000 carried full LMS livery. 10001 wasn't delivered until mid 1948 and while delivered in Black & Silver omitted the LMS letters...
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 21, 2017, 08:33:33 AM
You are quite right...

...pedantic.

 :whistle:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Dalek on September 21, 2017, 08:46:02 AM
I'm interested yes...

But to be pedantic Option 1 in the poll "Both in LMS Livery" is historically inaccurate. Only 10000 carried full LMS livery. 10001 wasn't delivered until mid 1948 and while delivered in Black & Silver omitted the LMS letters...


You are quite right...

...pedantic.

 :whistle:


If you change the wording for option 1 as per @PLD (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=647) post for both locos i'd vote for it.
I'd also vote for a Co-Bo if one of them was RTR was well !

Craig
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Thorpe Parva on September 21, 2017, 09:14:36 AM
I would purchase both in early BR Livery; ideally one powered & one dummy for double-heading.

I would also purchase 2 x Co-Bo.

David
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Bob G on September 21, 2017, 09:29:54 AM
This is a great thread, and I hope it does well.

But it would be more helpful if you had done a lot more research before posting the poll, as the crowdfunding boys will want to have more information than most people think is necessary to determine if something is a goer or not, and livery options is top of their list. Indeed, the option I would choose is not on your list. There are MANY variants of the basic liveries applied - one reason why the OO brigade has produced so many different models Here they are with dates, and livery details.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/1517-210917091642.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56038)

It would therefore help if you expanded your poll to allow for at least the five main livery options:

LMS Black (10000) + Black no logos (10001)
BR Black large early crest
BR Black small early crest
BR Green lined late crest
BR Green eggshell waistband

And give people the option of choosing one or two locomotives in each livery.

You also need to identify the routes these locos ran on, as the wider the distribution of routes these locos had will make them attractive to more buyers.

Only then would you know whether this has any potential to go to production.

I would really like to see it happen, as I want two in BR black early crest, as they ran on the Southern in that livery.

HTH to get things rolling on a more commercially focused keel.

Bob
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Newportnobby on September 21, 2017, 10:23:17 AM
Despite manufacturers saying the cost of a dummy loco is not far off that of a powered one, you could also have an option of one of the LMS twins (and class 28s for that matter) as a dummy, similar to DJ Models class 17 Claytons.
They are both out of my area but I could be interested in both - because I like 'em.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 21, 2017, 10:37:20 AM
Ok.

As per usual, many are missing the point of this exercise. The exact liveries are irrelevant at this stage. Everyone who has commented understands the phrase "The Twins" in this context. I am neither a designer, developer or indeed a detail obsessed enthusiast (to clarify, that's NOT a criticism).

I am merely a forum member who would like to have a rtr version of "The Twins" banging round his track with a rake of coaches behind.

I have done this poll in the hope that one of the smaller producers on here may look and decide it warrants further investigation, nothing more.

If you would like this too, then vote in the poll. Should it progress beyond this point then I'm sure that more professional/ experienced minds would produce options regarding specific liveries.

To finish, thanks for the additional info on liveries, it's very informative, but not part of this very basic poll.

If you'd like a version, whatever colour, livery, crest or number of this loco...

...vote.

As we know, these things are a numbers game nothing more.

If you would like one. Vote. It's that simple.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: robert shrives on September 21, 2017, 10:56:25 AM
  :thankyousign:

Yes voted but given only 20 odd have voted then getting to 500 votes - on the grounds we all want "twins" might take a while. Given APT- e voting you can see the problem.

Full power to your elbow for stating it off. 
Robert
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: red_death on September 21, 2017, 11:39:10 AM
I have absolutely no use for models of the Twins, but I'd probably buy a pair (for the same reason I would buy an APT-E ie they are iconic trains).

Having said which I agree with Bob that it would be better if the poll offered more options.  I'd probably vote for two of an alternative livery.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 21, 2017, 11:45:19 AM
I have absolutely no use for models of the Twins, but I'd probably buy a pair (for the same reason I would buy an APT-E ie they are iconic trains).

Having said which I agree with Bob that it would be better if the poll offered more options.  I'd probably vote for two of an alternative livery.

Cheers, Mike


@red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246)

I was kinda hoping you fellas might stop by.

How would you suggest I amend the poll? My plan was purely to establish how many bodyshells/chassis could be potentially sold. In your experience what is the approx magic  number for a worthwhile production?

Love your work btw.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Thorpe Parva on September 21, 2017, 11:52:05 AM
I would have voted for Two in alternative livery so I just voted for the One option.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 21, 2017, 11:58:34 AM
I've added an option for having two locos in alternative liveries.

Hope this helps.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: red_death on September 21, 2017, 12:12:16 PM
How would you suggest I amend the poll? My plan was purely to establish how many bodyshells/chassis could be potentially sold. In your experience what is the approx magic  number for a worthwhile production?

Love your work btw.

Thanks!

At this stage I think you've got two choices
1) either a simple poll saying would you buy:
- a pair of the LMS twins
- one of the LMS twins

Livery is kind of irrelevant at this stage. You are really trying to establish that there is a market for the models - I would have thought a major advantage of this idea is that the majority of people are going to want a pair (though there are lots of detail differences!).

Or:
2) start gathering together some of the basic research as Bob has suggested so that people have an idea of what they are voting for (for the people who may not know much about the prototype) and so that people see it is a serious endavour (and not merely just wishlisting).

Actually thinking about it, it is a combination of both! If people don't think it is a serious, well thought out project then they won't bother to vote for it or take it seriously.

A final thought worth bearing in mind is the capacity of both the manufacturers to produce another model and the capacity of the audience/customers to engage with a poll/crowdfunding exercise.  Neither are infinite!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: njnall on September 21, 2017, 12:39:40 PM
I have added my vote for LMS versions of 10000 & 10001, absolutely no part of my layout plans, however, am unable to resist the possibility of them running round the layout with appropriate rolling stock.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: NGS-PO on September 21, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
How would you suggest I amend the poll? My plan was purely to establish how many bodyshells/chassis could be potentially sold. In your experience what is the approx magic  number for a worthwhile production?

Love your work btw.

Livery is kind of irrelevant at this stage. You are really trying to establish that there is a market for the models -

To an extent this may be true, but in this case it may not be as cut and dried, unlike some other models such as the Class B tanks and the TEA tanks.

I have voted for a pair in "other livery", and I'd be looking for 10000 in Brunswick with partial Eggshell band and 10001 in Brunswick with full Eggshell band, since any liveries prior to this would be well out of date for my 1962 layout. But the thing is, if that livery was not on offer, or ended up not being made because there weren't enough orders, I'm not sure I would transfer my order to any other livery, unless I was confident I could get a good repaint job done. So if there are others who are in my position, and if expressions or interest were borderline, the result might be cancellations, meaning the poll here might give a false indication, unless a crowdfunding project would commit to producing all or most liveries.

Am I making sense?

Along with Falcon, these models would be very high on my personal wishlist, so I'm keen to see this develop to see if it would fly.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Bob G on September 21, 2017, 08:08:45 PM
How would you suggest I amend the poll? My plan was purely to establish how many bodyshells/chassis could be potentially sold. In your experience what is the approx magic  number for a worthwhile production?

Love your work btw.

Livery is kind of irrelevant at this stage. You are really trying to establish that there is a market for the models -

To an extent this may be true, but in this case it may not be as cut and dried, unlike some other models such as the Class B tanks and the TEA tanks.

I have voted for a pair in "other livery", and I'd be looking for 10000 in Brunswick with partial Eggshell band and 10001 in Brunswick with full Eggshell band, since any liveries prior to this would be well out of date for my 1962 layout. But the thing is, if that livery was not on offer, or ended up not being made because there weren't enough orders, I'm not sure I would transfer my order to any other livery, unless I was confident I could get a good repaint job done. So if there are others who are in my position, and if expressions or interest were borderline, the result might be cancellations, meaning the poll here might give a false indication, unless a crowdfunding project would commit to producing all or most liveries.

Am I making sense?

Along with Falcon, these models would be very high on my personal wishlist, so I'm keen to see this develop to see if it would fly.

Best

Scott

Hi Scott

You could paint in / paint out the eggshell band - It was present/missing across the cab and nose doors depending on the age of the loco. The small yellow end is also possibly OK to add (but we all know yellow is a pig to spray over anything) and I would even suggest the locos could be supplied partially numbered or un-numbered with dry rub transfers for 10001 or 10000.

Bob


Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: NGS-PO on September 21, 2017, 08:30:53 PM
How would you suggest I amend the poll? My plan was purely to establish how many bodyshells/chassis could be potentially sold. In your experience what is the approx magic  number for a worthwhile production?

Love your work btw.

Livery is kind of irrelevant at this stage. You are really trying to establish that there is a market for the models -

To an extent this may be true, but in this case it may not be as cut and dried, unlike some other models such as the Class B tanks and the TEA tanks.

I have voted for a pair in "other livery", and I'd be looking for 10000 in Brunswick with partial Eggshell band and 10001 in Brunswick with full Eggshell band, since any liveries prior to this would be well out of date for my 1962 layout. But the thing is, if that livery was not on offer, or ended up not being made because there weren't enough orders, I'm not sure I would transfer my order to any other livery, unless I was confident I could get a good repaint job done. So if there are others who are in my position, and if expressions or interest were borderline, the result might be cancellations, meaning the poll here might give a false indication, unless a crowdfunding project would commit to producing all or most liveries.

Am I making sense?

Along with Falcon, these models would be very high on my personal wishlist, so I'm keen to see this develop to see if it would fly.

Best

Scott

Hi Scott

You could paint in / paint out the eggshell band - It was present/missing across the cab and nose doors depending on the age of the loco. The small yellow end is also possibly OK to add (but we all know yellow is a pig to spray over anything) and I would even suggest the locos could be supplied partially numbered or un-numbered with dry rub transfers for 10001 or 10000.

Bob

Hi Bob,

My concern would be if only the black liveried examples made the cut, for example. Otherwise, yes you are quite correct.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 21, 2017, 09:53:16 PM
The poll should (that's how I set the poll up) allow you to select two options.

My brain was thinking that both bodyshells would be identical, but judging from previous posts this may not be the case. So if someone wanted the original pair of locos and one in BR livery they could select both. I assumed that the main expense would be the design/production of bodyshells/running gear, with livery being a less expensive set up. (I apologise if that is an incorrect assumption)

As previously stated, my main aim was to get enough people registering in the poll for a manufacturer to take note and say, "let's get some options together and see if there's enough people willing to stump up a deposit to make the project viable". I'm hoping that if we can get enough people on here to maybe even get halfway to the target that a manufacturer would be willing to ask on other forums/websites/publications to see if there are other likeminded souls about to make the target.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on September 21, 2017, 10:03:19 PM
You are quite right...

...pedantic.

 :whistle:

Only 10000 carried LMS livery. 10001 was delivered after nationalisation, so carried BR roundels, not LMS markings. That's not pedantic, that's fact.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: NGS-PO on September 22, 2017, 11:33:47 AM
To provide a little more information regarding the geographical reach of these fine locomotives, the following might be of interest:

Following initial testing,  10000 was placed on a twice daily London-Derby return passenger service from February 1948.  It was joined by No. 10001  on the service, and shortly after a Derby-Manchester turn was added.

After some modifications towards the end of 1948, the twins returned to the same route, initially, before they were transferred to the WCML to haul Euston to Glasgow express trains, although apparently only as far as Carlisle. The Royal Scot, sometimes at 16 coaches, was a common turn for them to be found on during this period.  These latter services saw the locomotives operate in multiple. In this configuration they were classified as equivalent to a class 8 steam locomotive (class 5 when operated singly). From June 1949, it appears that the twins, in multiple, began traversing the full route from Euston to Glasgow, before being separated and operating in singles again. 10000 was often tasked with the Euston to Blackpool service, whilst 10001 remained on the London to Glasgow turns, although it could also be found on LOndon to Crewe and London to Liverpool.

Both locomotives could also be found on freight turns, particularly express London (Camden) to Crewe, and Crewe-Willesden freights;  One notable freight working was the haulage of a 60 wagon, 1100 ton gross coal train, between Rugby and Willesden, achieving 25 mph on a 1 in 133 gradient to Tring Summit.

Other operations included a trial on the Settle and Carlisle, and workings to Perth, and, on one occasion to Aberdeen. Due to boiler problems they often worked winter freights and Royal Scot in summers.

In March 1953 they were both transferred to the Southern Region of British Railways to allow direct comparison to be made between them and the SR's 10201, 10202 & 10203. The twins remained on SR metals until spring 1955, and during their stay could be found on the Bournemouth Belle and now and again on services to Exeter. They were also noted at Brighton Works on occasion.

After overhaul at Derby, the locomotives returned to London Midland Region duties, mostly singly. The Royal Scot was a charge again during 1957/58, but by 1963, both locomotives found themselves languishing at Derby, where 10000 was withdrawn and partially cannibalized to keep 10001 in service until 1966, primarily on freight work around North London, but sightings exist of it on WCML freight work, and Wolverhampton express passenger trains.   

No 10000 was scrapped in May 1968, whilst, somewhat ironically, 10001 was scrapped in February 1968.
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on September 22, 2017, 11:41:03 AM
@NGS-PO (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) thank you for the extra information on the Twins.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: NGS-PO on September 25, 2017, 09:35:18 AM
To bump the thread a little bit, here are some images of the twins:

In the Lune gorge with 15 coaches in tow, 1948. 10000 can clearly be seen to be carrying its LMS legacy
(http://www.derbysulzers.com/LMS10000bwlune.jpg)

Twins in tandem powering the Royal Scot. Is that an ex-LMS BG at the front of the rake?
(http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00000-gec-alst-10000-1-royal-scot-b.jpg)

A lovely image, in green this time, apparently at Lichfield?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Rail/Heritage/Scans-Steam/i-wLRcB53/0/e0d75255/L/Scan%2010001%2010000%20Lichfield%20g-L.jpg)

10001, in green, on a breakdown train through Kenton on the WCML, 1964
(http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/10001_Kenton.jpg)
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: tutenkhamunsleeping on September 25, 2017, 09:54:54 AM
A lovely image, in green this time, apparently at Lichfield?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Rail/Heritage/Scans-Steam/i-wLRcB53/0/e0d75255/L/Scan%2010001%2010000%20Lichfield%20g-L.jpg)

Yup, that's heading south at Lichfield Trent Valley.  The shadows of the old station's chimneys are visible across the tracks.  A somewhat greyer view of the location can be seen at https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/5312415908/in/album-72157625594451759/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/5312415908/in/album-72157625594451759/)
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Bealman on September 25, 2017, 09:59:20 AM
I love that B&W Lune Gorge photo! Awesome.

Thanks for posting that!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Shiney Sheff on September 26, 2017, 09:25:42 PM
I would certainly have both in early livery 
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: emjaybee on October 08, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
An unashamed "bump".

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 10000 & 10001 "The Twins" as a ready to run loco.
Post by: Roy L S on October 08, 2017, 01:16:55 PM
Valid points, and in this day and age I don't think a good proportion of people would be happy to accept a multitude of liveries on a generic body shell.

The cost of tooling the different variants and then setting up for a number of different short production runs probably makes this a prohibitively expensive choice of model?

Back to the Metrovick Co-Bo possibly??

Roy

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