N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Pengi on October 13, 2011, 06:52:10 PM

Title: Blue Pullman
Post by: Pengi on October 13, 2011, 06:52:10 PM
Have seen the expected rrp of the OO version of this six coach train - 324.95!! Why is this so expensive? This is almost double the cost of an eight car Kato Eurostar and more than a ten car Thalys. I am interested in running the n version of the Blue Pullman as a heritage train on my layout - but the price is madness. Maybe I am missing something?
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: captainelectra on October 13, 2011, 07:37:54 PM
Big problem with the Blue Pullman is that almost every vehicle is unique, requiring a staggering investment in tooling. At a guess, Bachmann are setting the price fairly in order to recoup that investment and test the market for higher-priced train packs.

This is the same reason that the Dapol Pendolino is now on the back-burner - there are six different configurations for a nine-coach train - they probably wouldn't sell enough sets to recoup the cost of tooling.

Perhaps a return to a Farish-style printed bodyshell with interchangeable roof modules would be the answer for the Pendo.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2011, 07:54:25 PM
Owl and myself talked to the Farish Technical Director at TINGS about the N gauge version of the Blue Pullman. Believe it or not the biggest delay in bringing it to market was they weren't sure whether the seating colour was blue or red ??? All interior shots I have seen show the red and blue alternating down the carriage, but at least it shows a devotion to detail by Farish. I suspect any prospective buyer will need a second mortgage to own one though :(
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: EtchedPixels on October 13, 2011, 07:57:28 PM
Big problem with the Blue Pullman is that almost every vehicle is unique, requiring a staggering investment in tooling

Each half is basically the same so its three, but the three vehicles are completely different even needing multiple bogie mouldings.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Pengi on October 13, 2011, 08:11:44 PM
Thanks, I understand a bit more now. Dapol are missing a trick with the Pendolino - marketed correctly it could introduce a whole new audience to N. I have deliberately left two sidings empty on my layout. One is intended for Pendolino and the other for Blue Pullman. I suspect they are going to remain empty for some time - unless the lure of seeing a Thalys, ICE or bullet train rip round the track proves irresistible.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: BernardTPM on October 13, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
The seat colour conundrum is a case of either knowing too much or too little! Written records indicate there were two different colour schemes for first class (they boil down to blue carpets/red seats and red carpets/blue seats) but no-one seems to have bothered to say which number carriages were in which scheme!
Yes, three different bodyshells for a Midland Pullman only one of which was identical for the Western version, and two types of bogie, but nowhere near as many different vehicles as a Pendo.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: EtchedPixels on October 13, 2011, 08:38:46 PM
The seat colour conundrum is a case of either knowing too much or too little! Written records indicate there were two different colour schemes for first class (they boil down to blue carpets/red seats and red carpets/blue seats) but no-one seems to have bothered to say which number carriages were in which scheme!
Yes, three different bodyshells for a Midland Pullman only one of which was identical for the Western version, and two types of bogie, but nowhere near as many different vehicles as a Pendo.

Three bogies types actually although the differences are subtle and I guess would be part of the same tool - the leading bogies are not quite the same as the other non powered.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: longbridge on October 13, 2011, 08:54:33 PM
So many people wanting the Blue Pullman that I guess they can charge what they like. :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: BernardTPM on October 13, 2011, 11:28:07 PM
Three bogies types actually although the differences are subtle and I guess would be part of the same tool - the leading bogies are not quite the same as the other non powered.
The leading bogies are basically the same as the motor bogies, but without the motors - not sure if that would be noticeable on an N gauge version though.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Pengi on October 14, 2011, 07:01:02 AM
This is a good point, how much would people really notice fine details on N scale e.g. the bogies or the colour of the seats? The other thing that I am concerned about is the motor. Realise that having trains whizz round at max speeds is not prototypical, but the 4 car Grafar Voyagers pootle round the track at about the third the speed of 8 car Eurostar. My heart would like the Blue Pullman for sentimental reasons but if I was going to spend 300+ then my head is pointing me towards Thalys, ICE or Hayate - and pocket significant change!
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Sithlord75 on October 14, 2011, 07:24:49 AM
What is the price of a loco and 5 coaches?  Over 200 quid RRP - more depending on the coaches you chose (remember the first run Dapol Gresleys with the 30 quid buffet?)  TBH I don't think the N one will cost as much as the OO one - unless it will be fully lighted with DCC in every coach which I doubt.  I would imagine 250 quid - and I started saving when they announced it!
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Pengi on October 14, 2011, 07:49:11 AM
If the Blue Pullman has coach lighting then it is slightly cheaper than the Thalys (with the interior lighting packs)
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: bluedepot on October 14, 2011, 06:39:43 PM
2 hst power cars and 2 coaches is 130
6 mk3 coaches is probably 90 or more, so call it 220+ for a train.

a new class 47 would be about 65, +7 mk2s would be about 90, so 155 for a train.

anyway as has been said, the blue pullman vehicles are more specific than mk2 or mk3 coaches...

i'm not really bothered about having a blue pullman, i never saw one in real life and none are preserved...


tim
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: SymonC on October 14, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
Have seen the expected rrp of the OO version of this six coach train - 324.95!! Why is this so expensive? This is almost double the cost of an eight car Kato Eurostar and more than a ten car Thalys. I am interested in running the n version of the Blue Pullman as a heritage train on my layout - but the price is madness. Maybe I am missing something?



The OO version can be pre-ordered from Hattons for 290 which seems far more reasonable than the RRP!

http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=blue%20pullman

and only 265 from the Signal Box!

http://www.thesignalbox.co.uk/index_new.php?pg=3&p_cat_id=4&p_sub_cat=4&prod_id=12248
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: captainelectra on October 14, 2011, 07:39:07 PM
I'll only get one if they do it in Network SouthEast  ;)
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: moreland on October 14, 2011, 08:20:36 PM
Hi all,
The Blue Pullman was unique.
Having a six car o gauge set, which I sold
with all my o gauge layout and other stock,
to convert to n gauge recently it would be nice
to get a set in n gauge.
Based at Wolverhanpton Stafford Road, when
working on the footplate, I had the pleasure
of being on them in there short life based there.
Along with Western class 52's being mixed with
the one and only KING'S.
Wonderfull times I will always remmber.
Will wait to see what the Pullman's are like
as I do like some detail to be correct for an
expensive item.
Mike
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Newportnobby on October 14, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
I'll only get one if they do it in Network SouthEast  ;)

 :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: Only in your dreams Adam (and Tank) :sleep:
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Sithlord75 on October 15, 2011, 01:48:32 AM
2 hst power cars and 2 coaches is 130
6 mk3 coaches is probably 90 or more, so call it 220+ for a train.

a new class 47 would be about 65, +7 mk2s would be about 90, so 155 for a train.

anyway as has been said, the blue pullman vehicles are more specific than mk2 or mk3 coaches...

i'm not really bothered about having a blue pullman, i never saw one in real life and none are preserved...


tim

The HST is a more reasonable guess than the 47 and Mk2s - the Mk2s are a bit old to say the least!  The Dapol HST is up to scratch - and if the BP comes with lighting, add a few quid for the lighting kit from Dapol for the Mk3s.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Pengi on October 15, 2011, 06:53:56 AM
This makes the eight car Eurostar (150) great value for money (although it is 1:160 scale) - particularly considering the quality of its motor. Would still like a Blue Pullman though.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Sailor Charon on October 22, 2011, 11:18:37 AM
Well, I'll probably be getting one. And no, it won't get repainted :)
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: M-Massacre on October 22, 2011, 01:14:08 PM
I cant wiat for this train to come out all ill need then is a prototype HST and the heritage line on my layout will look stunning.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: poliss on October 22, 2011, 04:02:45 PM
Contrary to popular belief, the Blue Pullman has no connection whatsoever with the Class 43 HST apart from a superficial resemblance.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Newportnobby on October 22, 2011, 04:30:35 PM
I cant wiat for this train to come out all ill need then is a prototype HST and the heritage line on my layout will look stunning.


I'm already in talks with the Bank regarding getting one. I just hope Farish remember the LMR 6 car versions were all 1st Class, whereas the WR 8 car ones were mixed class. If they are logical they will bring out a 6 car 1st class set along with separate 2nd class carriages to enable us to make up the 8 car version, thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Why do I have the feeling they won't think like that?? :-\
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: M-Massacre on October 22, 2011, 07:53:45 PM
Contrary to popular belief, the Blue Pullman has no connection whatsoever with the Class 43 HST apart from a superficial resemblance.

this it true but lets face it i think certainly atleast for British outline the Blue Pullman has been the true prototype for all highspeed public traction on our rails
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: BernardTPM on October 22, 2011, 11:29:44 PM
If they are logical they will bring out a 6 car 1st class set along with separate 2nd class carriages to enable us to make up the 8 car version, thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
Unfortunately it's not as simple as that as only the two middle Parlour Firsts are the same on WR & LMER sets. The WR Kitchen cars are similar, but don't have the powered bogie at one end (which means the window that's narrowed on the LMR version on one side to allow for the cooling vents is wider on the WR version) while the WR driving cars have three second class bays (plus roller blind destination indicators) rather than the LMR's two first class and toilet. With two 6-car sets, plastic card, determination and care it should be possible to create a WR set, but it won't be a 5 minute job. Nor cheap!
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Newportnobby on October 26, 2011, 10:50:17 AM
Oh Sh*t! Thanks very much Bernard for enlightening me. :thumbsup: It's not what I wanted to hear but is very comprehensive.
I don't tend to dwell on detail and probably anyone who would see one on my layout would not notice either. If I run a rake of coaches, for example, I know full well it is not prototypically correct but if it looks OK overall, it does for me. In the same way I will have block trains full of vans or coal wagons all with the same running numbers. As it is overall impression I'm after, I dare say I can escape the pain you describe :o
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: BernardTPM on October 26, 2011, 02:34:38 PM
Certainly the difference in the Kitchen car body is pretty minimal and, as the two would be opposite ways round in a set, only one anomaly would be visible at a time and I reckon that swapping bogies between a couple of coaches shouldn't present too much trouble. Your real problem is the Driving Second coaches and the Parlour Seconds where the windows are more obviously different. If you're going for the original blue with white window area livery it may be possible to rework the bodysides by replacing just the white areas. Still not easy, but at least there's a colour break to hide the join. If done really carefully it should be possible to avoid a repaint by inserting new white window areas. If you want to go down this route at least you'll have a couple of spare power car ends to practice on!
The destination blind window could easily be done as a transfer, the real ones were virtually flush with just a thin rubber bead. You don't really need to see through them as they were only there to display the blind.
Don't forget that in later years the LMR sets were transferred to the Western, though I think that was after they received all-over yellow ends (but still had the original blue/white livery) and some rather clumsy jumper cables.
Title: Re: Blue Pullman
Post by: Newportnobby on October 26, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Thanks again, Bernard. It looks as if I may have to re-open negotiations but for 2 units this time. Doh!
I guess we'll have to see what Farish intend to release, but I think the earlier I weave this precarious path the smoother it may be later :angel:
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