Hi All,
I've got a Dapol Hall class loco in unlined green with GWR on the tender. Despite emails to Dapol and questions to friends, I can't trace a protoype Hall in this livery except for one which was converted to oil burning for a while. Can anybody shed any light on this version, please? I do like to run trains that are fairly prototypical if I can and it's bugging me that I can't locate this livery... Thanks!
Sounds like fairly standard post-war GW livery http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html (http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html)
Fairly standard on smaller locos like Granges and Manors but not on Halls. Like BigBear, the only Hall I have seen carying this livery was one of the oil burning examples. All the other Halls I have seen in post-war GWR livery were lined and had G(crest)W on their tenders.
I've just bought "Railway Liveries 1923 - 1947" by Brian Haresnape and have more to add now: On page 84, there is a picture of 5955 Garth Hall, a converted oil-burner with this exact livery taking on water! The author states that this scheme was as used on "all tender and tank engines other than the most important types". So, at least one Hall carried this livery, but the text doesn't say if this was given before or after the oil conversion, or if 5955 carried the same livery after re-conversion to coal. Also, would Halls be considered 'less important' engines in the great scheme of things? I've got another recommended book on GWR liveries on the way, so hopefuly, this will shed even more light on the subject!
I'm sure I'm coming over as an anorak amongst anoraks over this, but I'm feeling bugged that Dapol aren't forthcoming about their prototype information and just have to 'know'! So there!
Don't worry. If you are an annorak then at least you are in good company here. :NGaugersRule:
In answer to your question. The Halls were regarded as the smallest of the "important types" under GWR. So they (normally) received fully lined liveries whereas the slightly smaller Granges did not.
Most of the Halls repainted after WW2 received full lining but as Garth Hall demonstrates, there are always exceptions. Whether the example Dapol have produced is another exception, I do not know. They do claim to generally work from photos so I would expect some evidence somewhere. I stumbled across the photo they used as the basis for Gossington Hall in an album from the library so it could have come from anywhere.
I have a copy of "Great Western Way" on order, parhaps that will shed some light on the issue.
Why not just add the necessary lining and re-number to an example that you are aware of. One simple way to add lining was covered in N'spirations8.
Mind you these Hall pics don't appear to have lining;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/6775364197/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/6775364197/#)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36243655@N04/4136121659/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36243655@N04/4136121659/#)
http://www.llangollen-railway.org.uk/Pan%20from%20Shed%20Door%20251107%201200P.jpg (http://www.llangollen-railway.org.uk/Pan%20from%20Shed%20Door%20251107%201200P.jpg)
(But I could be wrong as all green kettles tend to look the same :))
H.
Quote from: H on October 17, 2012, 02:15:00 PM
(But I could be wrong as all green kettles tend to look the same :))
H.
I refuse to be provoked :no:
Quote from: H on October 17, 2012, 02:15:00 PM
(But I could be wrong as all green kettles tend to look the same :))
H.
Much, much nicer looking than all those boring blue or green boxed shaped thingy's :rain: (ducks, incoming) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/cherna/Cherna-champagne.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/cherna/Cherna-girl_pirate.gif)
Quote from: H on October 17, 2012, 02:15:00 PM
. . . as all green kettles tend to look the same :)
H.
Absolutely right, H.
Quote from: whiteswan on October 17, 2012, 04:55:47 PM
Much, much nicer looking than all those boring blue or green boxed shaped thingy's :rain: (ducks, incoming) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/cherna/Cherna-champagne.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/cherna/Cherna-girl_pirate.gif)
Presumably you must mean diesel locos, Caz?
Quote from: Pengy on October 17, 2012, 06:19:19 PM
Presumably you must mean diesel locos, Caz?
Of course, but even they are better than those horrible wiggly wormy things (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/cherna/Cherna-cannon.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/he_and_she/curtsey.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/he_and_she/girl_blum2.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/he_and_she/girl_blum2.gif)
Quote from: whiteswan on October 17, 2012, 06:25:45 PM
Quote from: Pengy on October 17, 2012, 06:19:19 PM
Presumably you must mean diesel locos, Caz?
Of course, but even they are better than those horrible wiggly wormy things (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/cherna/Cherna-cannon.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/he_and_she/curtsey.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/he_and_she/girl_blum2.gif) (http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/he_and_she/girl_blum2.gif)
I guess you must be referring to earthworms and not beautiful trains such as ICE, Eurostar, Javelins, Wessex electrics etc :) but I don't expect many of you will agree with me :(
I remember when ICE was something you had in your drink, Eurostar was ABBA, Javelins were fighter planes and Wessex were helicopters... AND TRAINS WERE PROPER STEAM JOBBIES!!! :angel:
Quote from: H on October 17, 2012, 02:15:00 PM
Why not just add the necessary lining and re-number to an example that you are aware of. One simple way to add lining was covered in N'spirations8.
Mind you these Hall pics don't appear to have lining;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/6775364197/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/6775364197/#)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36243655@N04/4136121659/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36243655@N04/4136121659/#)
http://www.llangollen-railway.org.uk/Pan%20from%20Shed%20Door%20251107%201200P.jpg (http://www.llangollen-railway.org.uk/Pan%20from%20Shed%20Door%20251107%201200P.jpg)
(But I could be wrong as all green kettles tend to look the same :))
H.
All of the above photo's are of preserved locomotives and as such do not necessarily prove the theory - when we first rebuilt Nunney Castle in 1990, we ran her in on the great central at Loughborough in plain unlined BR green due to a shortage of time and the availability of the people who eventually lined her out
I have come across a picture of a Hall in unlined post-war GWR livery. The loco in question is 5976 and it is painted in the same style as the picture of Pitchford Hall that Grahame posted earlier.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36243655@N04/4136121659/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36243655@N04/4136121659/#)
This is not quite the same as the Dapol model as it has G(crest)W on the tender rather than GWR but at least that only requires a simple transfer on the tender to correct.
Thanks Karhedron, I've found that already. It's my standby if I fail to find the prototype I'm looking for. This is, of course, another preserved loco, but presumably it is authentic, or they'd be getting a lot of flak from the informed hordes.
I've now got the HRMS book on GWR liveries and that states defiinitely (maybe) NO unlined/GWR liveried Halls... Grahhh! Come on Dapol, put us out of our misery re. this livery, please!
I am pretty sure that 5976 Ashwicke Hall was not one of the ones that survived into preservation. I was just verifying that the livery worn by Pitchford is prototypical for at least some members of the class. The photo of 5976 dates from 1951 so is definitely historical. ;)
Sorry, My mistake! I had thought this was a more recent picture! Just shows that I should put my glasses on more often! Doh! She's very well cared for, considering the era she comes from!
As has already been mentioned here, at least one of the oil fired Halls had the unlined/GWR livery, which may indicate that there were others too.
I'll still not stop looking until I find absolute proof, though!
Quote from: bigbear on October 25, 2012, 11:32:47 PM
Sorry, My mistake! I had thought this was a more recent picture!
On the contrary, apologies from me for being confusing. The picture I linked to was indeed Pitchford Hall in preservation.
What I was trying to say (and failing) was that I had found a 1951 picture of Ashwicke Hall in the same livery, thus proving it was a real livery and not just a preservation thing. Sorry for not being clearer.
No probs, it's only a hobby after all - unless Dapol produce a dodgy livery - THEN it's serious! :laugh: