Hi all,
Can't remember if I've seen this or even asked it before, as have the memory of a sieve, but can you double head locos of different makes or would that burn out the motors of the potentially slower or faster one. Have got Minitrix, Piko, Startrain and Kato locos.
Thanks for any help.
Cheers Weave
Providing they run at resonably similar speed all should be fine.
With DCC you can if need be use the speed curves to speed match the locos. For UK type double heading its not normally needed but some US modellers doing big trains with mid train helpers and stuff pretty much need it.
Not normally too much of a problem under DC - is this using the new loco you got ?
Under DCC you can speed match. A frustrating process but pays dividends for smooth operation and prevents one loco pulling/pushing the other.
does that mean it's ok to run two locos on one line on dc? i was always told not to do that by my dad, this could open up a whole new world!
Dave
I run DC and have recently double headed Class 24's. With minimal wiring you can also have a train pull out of a station and release the previous train loco to follow it out.
A lot depends on your loco mix/make though. :hmmm:
Thanks guys,
The layout is DC. Yes to trainsdownunder's question regarding new loco which only has a tomix motor and was converted to DCC but works on the DC. Might be a big problem as seems slower than the rest.
As the layout is a fictitious loop-line from the main Perpignan to the spanish border line and that at moment can't afford catenary, thought I could have diesels pulling electrics and the train for extra interest (and realism because of say engineering works on the mainline).
However, don't want to break anything for the sake of realism.
Thanks Weave
Quote from: bbdave on September 09, 2012, 08:10:48 AM
does that mean it's ok to run two locos on one line on dc? i was always told not to do that by my dad, this could open up a whole new world!
Dave
My Dad used to say the same. I reckon it was because things weren't quite so reliable in the early days, in terms of quality electrical wise. I do know peple who do run double headers on DC with no apparent trouble. However, it was one of the reasons I went to DCC
The number of locos that can be run at the same time depends on the power handling capacity of the controller. On our club layout we often have 3 locos running on one controller with no problem.
Tony
When I have my Kato Santa Fe Super Chief F7 locos running in full consist pulling 12 Kato Super Chief passenger cars, all the locos are powered and in ABBA formation all running on one Kato DC Controller, lovely sight :thumbsup:
cheers John.
I run up to 7 locos off one gaugemaster controller, 4 unit head end with a 3 unit helper cut into the train about 40 cars from the front. 1:60 gradients and down to 12" curvature too with little fuss, but then US outline models are generally more consistent in their running qualities. I wouldn't try the same with Dapol/Farish models, but then UK outline doesn't call for complex lashups and helpers, its mostly double head and/or bankers. As long as you don't pass the controllers rated current output (cheapy trainset controllers will deliver 0.7A quite happily, which is comfortable for multiple N Gauge locos), you can run as many locos as it takes to reach that limit. A good number of controllers have an overload cutout, so its quite hard to do lasting damage.
Thanks again all,
However, its not so much the controller I'm worried about (got a gaugemaster one) or running two locos of the same make and type. Unless I missed something, can you burn a motor out if its dragging or pushing the other one of a different type and manufacturer?
Cheers Weave
As long as they have similar running speeds so one is not pulling or pushing the other too much it will be fine :thumbsup:
cheers John.
If you weight the train accordingly, the locomotive coupled to the train will be slowed by the weight of the train and the lead locomotive will simply add the grunt needed to get the train going. It 'should' do no more harm than running a heavy train with a single locomotive. They don't need to be perfectly speed matched, just so long as they're close. It is only when banking that you want the locomotives to be well matched, otherwise you can either stringline the train (slow loco at the rear) or push it off the rails (slow loco at the front). For regular double heading I tend to use the faster loco as the pilot, or the most powerful if there is a Union Mills loco involved, and let the second engine take up the slack from the train.
On my, currently existing on paper only, layout I am going to be double heading some mineral trains by using one motorised loco with second loco immediately behind being either a purpose made dummy or with motor, pickups and gears all removed. I don't intend to any front of house shunting with these fixed rakes, any shunting will be by Hand of God in the fiddle yard.
I used to double head under DC with no apparent problems. Haven't tried to do it now I'm on DCC yet, and only recently bought my USB adapter. Is it easy enough to sync two locos' speeds?
Quote from: RichardBattersby on September 09, 2012, 08:51:53 PMIs it easy enough to sync two locos' speeds?
Speed matching is not quite as daunting as it seems and I have found it worth the effort. Couple of links I've keep for setting it up.
I used the first one initially as I have a SPROG etc and do use Decoder Pro.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs004.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn1/y_Speed_Matching_DecPro (http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn1/y_Speed_Matching_DecPro)
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/loconews/loco_speed_matching_easy.htm (http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/loconews/loco_speed_matching_easy.htm)
Don't know about British stuff but when I modelled American N I always double or triple headed my diesels on DC, I did use the same brand locos for each lash up and had no problems whatsoever.
Although I have great respect for Farish Diesels I don't think they are as robust as the American stuff, heard to many horror stories of broken and mismatched gears, having said that I intend to buy as many British diesels as possible.
I've been double heading class 73s on a train at exhibitons for many years with no problems. They are both the same class and make so are fairly well matched but not exactly. However, I don't think I'd try pairing, say, a typical leggy Kato chassis mech with a slow running Farish loco though.
H.
I double head a Union Mills 2P and a Union Mills 3F. Both run at a similar speed having the same tender drive mechanism. However the different wheel arrangement makes the coupling rods move at different rates and this looks very good... well, I think so!
Hi
I regularly doublehead a couple of trains and sometimes run two trains on opposite sides of a long loop. My loops are around a 10 by 8 (feet) shed.
I think its vital to get two locos that are approximately geared the same so they run at much the same speed as each other. My best double header is pulled by two small Minitrix dock tanks. Double heading these looks great and they do not stick at points at all. I regularly also use a Dapol Q1 to pull a coal train with a Dapol Terrier at the back banking. This is on the inner first radius (9 inch) loop where the Q1 (second batch - no traction tyres) has some trouble pulling the coal train at very slow speed round bends and stops on some nearby insulfrog points. With the banker this train trundles slowly round.
When running two trains on the same DC track I try to get the locos closely matched for the running speed that I want. This relative speed of travel varies with controller setting. So at slow speeds two locos may be well matched but at a faster speed they may not be and vice versa. I regularly have two trains - one long modern goods pulled by a Dapol Class 67 and at the other side my Engineer's liveried dogfish train pulled by a Dapol Class 26. One issue to be aware of is that the loco speeds differ quite a bit at the same controller speed setting as they warm up. In the above example the class 26 starts off slower from cold than the class 67 and then speeds up so it runs faster so catches up with the goods train and has to be regularly stopped at one section for a few seconds to keep the spacing the same.
A similar tale with two Dapol Class 156 DMU sets.
I have not yet found two Farish locos that will run at the same speed on DC and them and Dapols run at different speeds.
I use a Vortax N gauge 4 x track D.C. controller with no problems.
Is it worth the bother?
You bet - as it looks great when they are all moving together. A very busy railway!
The downside? Some locos I have do not like being coupled with another loco at all and constantly derail whenever either it or the partner loco stutter a bit on bends, dirty track or points resulting in tension on the couplings. The worst for this is a Farish Black 5.
When running two trains on one loop you have to watch out for catch ups due to stalls, sticking and just varying speed - so no nattering to visitors or catastrophy will ensue.
Cheers
Mac
Quote from: trainsdownunder on September 09, 2012, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: bbdave on September 09, 2012, 08:10:48 AM
does that mean it's ok to run two locos on one line on dc? i was always told not to do that by my dad, this could open up a whole new world!
My Dad used to say the same. I reckon it was because things weren't quite so reliable in the early days, in terms of quality electrical wise. I do know peple who do run double headers on DC with no apparent trouble. However, it was one of the reasons I went to DCC
I think the advice I received back in the late seventies/early eighties was much the same: don't try it or you risk burning out an engine. As banking was an integral part of the real-life line that I'm thinking about modelling now that I'm back in the hobby, I'm really encouraged to see that things have moved on since then.
This is proving very helpful. A number of 2 coach DMU's, for example Farish Class 158's. I was intending to run them singly as I was worried about damaging the motors if I tried running 4 coach units.
If i connect the 2 units together so the two powered coaches are adjacent there should be no problem running them under DC?
Same with Farish Voyagers if i have the two power cars adjacent?
I wonder why Dapol sell dummy units?
With DC I think the same problems arise wherever you place the power cars, Dave.
Unless the power cars are very closely balanced (such as the Farish Blue Pullman) you will always have one either pulling the other or one propelling the other. Personally I don't know which is best regarding strain on motors, but having run a couple of class 24's on an oval of track to see which ran fastest, I then used the slower loco as the pilot engine in a double headed situation and have had no trouble (or at least I don't think I have :worried:)