As a newcomer to N gauge and currently not very knowledgeable about standard gauge locomotive classes (though I'm learning slowly) I'm more than a bit confused by the seemingly huge variety of 0-6-0 steam locos produced by Graham Farish, and would be interested to know more about exactly what they produced and when! This may be asking rather too much, but any clarification would be helpful!
This page - http://www.ngauge.org.uk/farish_hist.htm (http://www.ngauge.org.uk/farish_hist.htm) - has a list of the diesel types produced by GF, but I can't find anything online listing their steam range.
Looking at the various second-hand GF locos that have appeared on eBay over the last few months, there seem to be a bewildering number of different body shells and liveries out there - some of which don't look very authentic! - as well as variations in body shell details (e.g. Jinty, SR 0-6-0 tank) which I'd guess are updates/revisions to the mouldings rather than different loco types.
I'd be interested to know how many different types of loco (as in bodyshell mouldings) there actually are, what liveries they were produced in, and when they were produced. (I've learnt to my cost that the oldest models (can motor and plastic gears) are best avoided completely)
Types I've seen include the GWR 57xx and 94xx panniers, LMS Jinty, early starter set pseudo-Jinty, SR tank loco (at least one type), small GER(?) tank loco, and J94 saddle tank (I think the latter is a recent addition to the range); not to mention the 08 diesel (which I think has been in their range for a while).
Bachfar have recently announced that the 57xx is to be re-motored and if it is anything like the re-motored Class 08 Diesel then is should be a good runner. I've just taken delivery of one of the new 08's and the running is superb, haven't measured it yet, but goes down to about 1 scale mph, real supercreep. I've also got one of the very old 08's it is also a good runner but nowhere as good as the new one and the old one is quite noisy as well.
I'm hoping that the new 57xx which are the bread and butter on my layout(Dapol are also doing one) , uses the same motor as the 08, if that's the case then I'll probably discard all my old chassis and replace them with the new version.
Generally there were the following:
94xx Pannier - in GWR Green and BR black. This model had been through all the evolutions of Farish chassis, from the very first plastic chassied models (which actually worked) to the next version of plastic chassis (terrible as you say) to the 3 pole brass geared open frame motor, then 5 pole open frame motor white nylon geared , then 5 pole black geared, then 5 pole balanced silver commutator black geared. Most recent are the Bachfar versions of this with low profile blackened wheels and motion. There were also 2 body mouldings, one larger than the other - it changed ~1980 type time when the 3 pole open frame motor locos started coming out.
GP tank - LMS crimson, LNER apple green, SR green, BR black. Used the same chassis as the 94xx, in all the same variations, except there were never any plastic chassied examples.
57xx pannier - GWR green, BR black, only came with 5 pole open frame silver commutator motor and black gear. This is prone to splitting but can be replaced.
Later style Jinty - BR black, LMS black - as above - only came with 5 pole open frame silver commutator motor and black gear. This is prone to splitting but can be replaced.
08/J94 - (many liveries!) came in 3 pole brass, 5 pole white and 5 pole black geared examples.
Of all of the above the only to avoid are the plastic chassied examples. All the rest can generally be made to run very well, though obviously the older the more likely it'll need good overhaul and fettle to get running to best.
HTH,
Alan
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 08, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
As a newcomer to N gauge and currently not very knowledgeable about standard gauge locomotive classes (though I'm learning slowly) I'm more than a bit confused by the seemingly huge variety of 0-6-0 steam locos produced by Graham Farish, and would be interested to know more about exactly what they produced and when! This may be asking rather too much, but any clarification would be helpful!
This page - http://www.ngauge.org.uk/farish_hist.htm (http://www.ngauge.org.uk/farish_hist.htm) - has a list of the diesel types produced by GF, but I can't find anything online listing their steam range.
Looking at the various second-hand GF locos that have appeared on eBay over the last few months, there seem to be a bewildering number of different body shells and liveries out there - some of which don't look very authentic! - as well as variations in body shell details (e.g. Jinty, SR 0-6-0 tank) which I'd guess are updates/revisions to the mouldings rather than different loco types.
I'd be interested to know how many different types of loco (as in bodyshell mouldings) there actually are, what liveries they were produced in, and when they were produced. (I've learnt to my cost that the oldest models (can motor and plastic gears) are best avoided completely)
Types I've seen include the GWR 57xx and 94xx panniers, LMS Jinty, early starter set pseudo-Jinty, SR tank loco (at least one type), small GER(?) tank loco, and J94 saddle tank (I think the latter is a recent addition to the range); not to mention the 08 diesel (which I think has been in their range for a while).
Quote from: whiteswan on August 08, 2012, 05:10:39 PM
Bachfar have recently announced that the 57xx is to be re-motored and if it is anything like the re-motored Class 08 Diesel then is should be a good runner. I've just taken delivery of one of the new 08's and the running is superb, haven't measured it yet, but goes down to about 1 scale mph, real supercreep. I've also got one of the very old 08's it is also a good runner but nowhere as good as the new one and the old one is quite noisy as well.
I'm hoping that the new 57xx which are the bread and butter on my layout(Dapol are also doing one) , uses the same motor as the 08, if that's the case then I'll probably discard all my old chassis and replace them with the new version.
The new 57xx chassis will use the same coreless motor as the WD and 5MT from all accounts rather than the can motor found in the new 08. If the running qualities of the WD are anything to go by it should run superbly.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Dr Al on August 08, 2012, 05:27:16 PM
Generally there were the following:
94xx Pannier - in GWR Green and BR black. This model had been through all the evolutions of Farish chassis, from the very first plastic chassied models (which actually worked) to the next version of plastic chassis (terrible as you say) to the 3 pole brass geared open frame motor, then 5 pole open frame motor white nylon geared , then 5 pole black geared, then 5 pole balanced silver commutator black geared. Most recent are the Bachfar versions of this with low profile blackened wheels and motion. There were also 2 body mouldings, one larger than the other - it changed ~1980 type time when the 3 pole open frame motor locos started coming out.
GP tank - LMS crimson, LNER apple green, SR green, BR black. Used the same chassis as the 94xx, in all the same variations, except there were never any plastic chassied examples.
57xx pannier - GWR green, BR black, only came with 5 pole open frame silver commutator motor and black gear. This is prone to splitting but can be replaced.
Later style Jinty - BR black, LMS black - as above - only came with 5 pole open frame silver commutator motor and black gear. This is prone to splitting but can be replaced.
08/J94 - (many liveries!) came in 3 pole brass, 5 pole white and 5 pole black geared examples.
Of all of the above the only to avoid are the plastic chassied examples. All the rest can generally be made to run very well, though obviously the older the more likely it'll need good overhaul and fettle to get running to best.
HTH,
Alan
Hi Alan
The original 94xx pannier from circa 1970 used a very different chassis to the later plug together one, it it really rather good by comparison, and actually has a metal keeper-plate rather than plastic. I am guessing that cost was the motivation for the change but who knows....
Don't also forget the GER Holden Tank had it's LMS and Southern General Purpose Tank cousins. Again two versions of the Holden chassis, the original with sprung couplers and gears integral with axles (reasonably ok), then the later plug together one with all the same problems as the Pannier.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on August 08, 2012, 06:45:42 PM
The new 57xx chassis will use the same coreless motor as the WD and 5MT from all accounts rather than the can motor found in the new 08. If the running qualities of the WD are anything to go by it should run superbly.
Regards
Roy
Damn, I was really hoping it was going to use a similar motor to the 08 as I wanted to have a go at putting sound in one and with the can motor there might have been room but with the coreless I don't think so :scowl:. Shame, I was looking forward to that challenge. :'(
Quote from: Roy L S on August 08, 2012, 06:54:24 PM
Don't also forget the GER Holden Tank had it's LMS and Southern General Purpose Tank cousins. Again two versions of the Holden chassis, the original with sprung couplers and gears integral with axles (reasonably ok), then the later plug together one with all the same problems as the Pannier.
Yes, I forgot that, mainly because I've never had one that did anything other than collapse, so I've never considered it as much of a serious proposition. I do have an oddity there though - one with all brass gears. I've never got round to actually reassembling it and seeing whether it's any better, but I presume it's relatively rare, or very well re-engineered by someone!
Cheers,
Alan
Thanks to all for the information! Sounds like the range is more or less like I guessed, but it's interesting to know that the 57xx was actually a much later addition (you'd have thought "Duck" would have been an obvious choice) and that the J94 has been around longer than I thought.
I've seen the Holden J67 tank (the small GER loco I mentioned - now I know what it is!) in BR black livery as well as GER, LMS and SR. I assume the latter two are bogus liveries, not sure why Farish didn't pick LNER livery as the latter took over the GER!
Is the GP tank the same body used for the "Shredded Wheat" unpowered loco?
Hello E,
Don't know whether this is any help as it has never been kept up to date
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/farish_products_by_item_no.pdf (http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/farish_products_by_item_no.pdf)
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 08, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
Thanks to all for the information! Sounds like the range is more or less like I guessed, but it's interesting to know that the 57xx was actually a much later addition (you'd have thought "Duck" would have been an obvious choice) and that the J94 has been around longer than I thought.
Oops I implied the wrong thing with the J94 - it was only available in 5 pole black geared versions, so is later. It's the 08s that have all flavours of chassis. The J94 was a much later model.
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 08, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
Is the GP tank the same body used for the "Shredded Wheat" unpowered loco?
Similar, but not the same - the GP tank is a metal cast body, the Shredded Wheat loco is a plastic bodied loco.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 08, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
I've seen the Holden J67 tank (the small GER loco I mentioned - now I know what it is!) in BR black livery as well as GER, LMS and SR. I assume the latter two are bogus liveries, not sure why Farish didn't pick LNER livery as the latter took over the GER!
Is the GP tank the same body used for the "Shredded Wheat" unpowered loco?
The Holden Tank was made in LNER green livery as well as BR and GER, but possibly only with the second incarnation of the plug together chassis, I'm not totally sure. I did have one as a spotty teenager, that definitely had the second chassis type.
The Shredded Wheat loco body is similar in looks to the later GP Tank but not identical. Also the GP Tank was diecast metal, the Shredded Wheat loco is plastic.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Dr Al on August 08, 2012, 07:45:01 PM
Quote from: Roy L S on August 08, 2012, 06:54:24 PM
Yes, I forgot that, mainly because I've never had one that did anything other than collapse, so I've never considered it as much of a serious proposition. I do have an oddity there though - one with all brass gears. I've never got round to actually reassembling it and seeing whether it's any better, but I presume it's relatively rare, or very well re-engineered by someone!
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan
Oddly I had one of those metal geared Holden chassis too. It was fitted to an LMS General Purpose Tank body. Don't know what became of it - did I sell it on ebay and were you the buyer :D
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on August 08, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
Don't know what became of it - did I sell it on ebay and were you the buyer :D
Doubt it - I got it as a freebee from someone, though the reason why escapes me now!
I've just had it out and it looks like it could actually be reasonably durable - the gears that are brass are the ones that usually wear or split on these...
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S on August 08, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 08, 2012, 07:45:01 PM
Quote from: Roy L S on August 08, 2012, 06:54:24 PM
Yes, I forgot that, mainly because I've never had one that did anything other than collapse, so I've never considered it as much of a serious proposition. I do have an oddity there though - one with all brass gears. I've never got round to actually reassembling it and seeing whether it's any better, but I presume it's relatively rare, or very well re-engineered by someone!
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan
Oddly I had one of those metal geared Holden chassis too. It was fitted to an LMS General Purpose Tank body. Don't know what became of it - did I sell it on ebay and were you the buyer :D
Regards
Roy
In all seriousness, mine was fully assembled when I bought it. I had always assumed it was a rather nice looking private re-engineering job - maybe not then? I had to clean it out, it had classic brass-on brass gear wear and metal filings everywhere in the chassis when I got it. It ran somewhat roughly and although it all looked neat enough in truth the conversion was not very effective from the running perspective.
Roy
Quote from: Dr Al on August 08, 2012, 08:40:16 PM
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 08, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
Is the GP tank the same body used for the "Shredded Wheat" unpowered loco?
Similar, but not the same - the GP tank is a metal cast body, the Shredded Wheat loco is a plastic bodied loco.
The plastic version has a much smaller boiler (the 2nd Generation GP tank had a boiler that would have put the Royal Scot to shame!) and can be cut down to produce a reasonable looking Jinty body; Andy Calvert did one like this. Of course, Farish then brought out a 'proper' Jinty! The ex-Shredded Wheat body is now sold in starter sets, slightly modified to fit the last version of the 94XX chassis.
One other minor detail I've just discovered (after buying a replacement bodyshell for a reasonably good runner with a battered + incomplete body) is that there are two variants of the GER Holden tank, one (a later modification?) has no toolboxes or condensing gear, and the dome further back. The former modifications were applied to the real loco in later years according to F.J. Roche's scale drawings, but I'm not sure the dome was ever changed, so I don't know quite what Grafar were doing!
I suspect these changes were done simply to make the loco look more "generic" and suitable for production in other railway liveries (the dome location in particular is quite a distinctive feature of the J67/J69).
What about the Fowler 4F 0-6-0 tender loco?
The 'proper' Holden Tank was done in GER, LNER and BR liveries. A simplified version became their first General Purpose Tank loco in LMS and Southern liveries. All these models were replaced by the chunky 'Super Jinty' General Purpose tank in the late 1970s, which used the 94xx chassis.
The 4F tender loco was a 1980s introduction and had it's own, more accurate chassis.
Quote from: BernardTPM on August 23, 2012, 12:02:43 AM
The 4F tender loco was a 1980s introduction and had it's own, more accurate chassis.
The 4F was later than that - mid 1990s I'm sure as I remember reading the RM review of them in a mag around that time.
Cheers,
Alan
Sorry, I had thought late 1980s, but on checking it was 1993.
Quote from: BernardTPM on August 23, 2012, 09:18:51 AM
Sorry, I had thought late 1980s, but on checking it was 1993.
The 1990s models were actually pretty accurate (4F and later Jinty) and make good detailing bases.
As such, it's maybe unsuprising that they are still in the Bachmann catalogue.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on August 23, 2012, 10:17:13 AM
Quote from: BernardTPM on August 23, 2012, 09:18:51 AM
Sorry, I had thought late 1980s, but on checking it was 1993.
The 1990s models were actually pretty accurate (4F and later Jinty) and make good detailing bases.
As such, it's maybe unsuprising that they are still in the Bachmann catalogue.
Cheers,
Alan
I'm sure they'll replace it eventually with a new super detailed tooled up version.
(And by 'tooled up' I don't mean with shooters! :laugh:)
They'll want the same quality across their range eventually and the 'I want every detail correct' out of the box modellers will come to expect it.
Until then you have two choices, as it is or add the detail yourself! :D :smiley-laughing:
Just catching up with this particular thread.
I have the SR tank engine, and one of the first things I noticed was that the numbering, 2579, was actually for a Class E4 0-6-2T. I was wondering about getting hold of a spare set of trailing wheels to attach to the N Gauge version, but on closer inspection, it's not particularly close to the E4 in terms of exact detail.
It's probably best to keep the 0-6-0 chassis for use with a kit one day in the future because I suspect there are too many differences to make it worthwhile trying a conversion to an E4. I'd appreciate hearing anyone else's thoughts on the idea.
Quote from: Pete33 on December 13, 2013, 04:05:45 PM
Just catching up with this particular thread.
I have the SR tank engine, and one of the first things I noticed was that the numbering, 2579, was actually for a Class E4 0-6-2T. I was wondering about getting hold of a spare set of trailing wheels to attach to the N Gauge version, but on closer inspection, it's not particularly close to the E4 in terms of exact detail.
It's probably best to keep the 0-6-0 chassis for use with a kit one day in the future because I suspect there are too many differences to make it worthwhile trying a conversion to an E4. I'd appreciate hearing anyone else's thoughts on the idea.
Do Langley still sell their E5 (I think) kit which is designed to fit the GP chassis. They provide the trailer axle. I have turned one of these combinations into the ex Caley 044T No 55124, one of 2 Caley 19 class which survived into the early 60s.
Quote from: Portpatrick on December 13, 2013, 04:18:17 PM
Do Langley still sell their E5 (I think) kit which is designed to fit the GP chassis. They provide the trailer axle. I have turned one of these combinations into the ex Caley 044T No 55124, one of 2 Caley 19 class which survived into the early 60s.
They do indeed still stock the E5:
http://www.langleymodels.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Locomotive_Body_kits_73.html (http://www.langleymodels.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Locomotive_Body_kits_73.html)
They don't say anything about providing the trailer axle, though. Presumably this can be picked up as a spare from somewhere?
The E2 is also rather nice, so there's need there for a second 0-6-0 chassis if I find one going cheap.
Hi,
You might find the old GF catalogues here
http://www.ness-st.co.uk/N-gauge-catalogues.html (http://www.ness-st.co.uk/N-gauge-catalogues.html)
of some use.
Langley used to do the E4, I have one, then discontinued it and brought out the E5, the Langley E2 has been in production since at least the 1980s if not before.
For many years all the Farish 6 coupled locos with the 3 or 5 pole motors used virtually the same basic chassis, all had the same wheel spacing, only the size of wheel differed. About the only differences were the motion, and a few variations in front and rear ends to cope with bogies, pony trucks, cylinders and couplings;the only one that was considrably differentwas te J94/08 in which the motor was horizontal not inclined, that chassis was also used for the 4P 4-4-0 with different slots for the axles and provision for cylinders and a bogie and with a drawbar for the tender in place of a coupling.
They must have saved quite a bit on tooling!
As they were at the time almost the only maker of UK stock, kit makers had to make do with the chassis available, this led to some awful looking results,as somebody already mentioned, an LMS pacific kit on a Black 5 chassis looked ridiculous, so did the D&M SR King Arthur (now produced by BHE) it looked better with Duchess wheels in place of the Black 5, better still with a Peco Jubilee chassis (provided you could find a suitable 8 wheel tender drive (Minitrix 2077), now I use a Union Mills drive with an extra axle.
If staying within one region without applying Rule 1 the number of current new 0-6-0s is a heck of a lot less than it used to be. The Dapol 57xx, the current Terrier, is about it although hopefully to be swelled by the Farish 64xx (but when?) and the Jinty. That leaves about two only per region.
Crack expresses are two a penny though.
Hitting eBay for the old little' a seems like the only option other than switching to OO of course.
For tender 0-6-0s Union Mills have improved the situation considerably for LNER, LMS and SR, Considering that 0-6-0 and 4-4-0 were the most numerous of all locos on most railways the lack of smaller locos in N make it near imposible to run a prototypical railway.
Apart from Union Mills, for tender locos I can only think of 1 RTR 4-4-0 - Farish 4P and 3 0-6-0s Farish 4F, Dapol Q1 and Peco Collett; one more 4-4-0 announced Dapol Schools - if and when it ever appears
What about the j39?
:D To confuse matters even more, Grafar produced at least two versions of the Holden tank locomotive, one definitely a J69 with sandboxes?, on the top of the water tanks. And another with a cab window beside the door and the dome is set further back. Haven't identified that yet but definitely one of the J60's.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g128/achilles1_2006/14291821_10154047066661859_138605632426760420_n.jpg)
This is definately a J69 Ex GER
Actually could be a J67/1 or J69/1 depending on boiler psi. :D
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g128/achilles1_2006/14947431_10154215515046859_6324972218565308290_n.jpg)
Note this has no sandboxes and dome is placed further back
The 'sandboxes' on top of the tanks on J67/69 were tool boxes, I believe. Note that the position of the dome depended upon the diagram of boiler fitted, and also, on the prototype, likewise, the position of the safety valves. The full history of the two classes was intertwined and complicated, with different sized water tanks amongst other things. In general, 140lb (later, by LNER days, 160lb) boilers were J67, 180lb boilers J69. Engines could switch between classes/subclasses.
Martyn
Quote from: Timbo 57 on November 09, 2016, 12:45:34 PM
Note this has no sandboxes and dome is placed further back
That one is the first 'General Purpose' tank, which has already been mentioned - a modification of the J69 to give something to offer in LMS and Southern colours (The GWR had the 94xx pannier, of course). Looks like that's been given a basic coat of black.
The loco illustrated above is definitely the later General Purpose Tank in that picture. I understand that the J69 tooling was modified to produce them.
The livery looks like a repaint. That vintage of GP Tank only came in LMS red and Southern green.
I don't think the box is original, the felt lined jewel case was provided for the J69, the GP Tanks came in a card sleeve type box with a plastic tray inside.
Also, just an observation the body isn't fitted on the chassis properly, there are two tiny protrusions on the rear of the chassis that fit in equally small holes in the rear of the body just above the buffer beam. They are visible from the exterior of the body as they go right through.
As to Farish 0-6-0s, my count is: -
Original
J69 BR Black, LNER Green, GER Blue
GP Tank LMS red, Southern Green
94xx Pannier GW Green, BR Black
Later metal chassis: -
94xx(Original Tooling for body)
Later GP Tank (Bigger based on the 94xx chassis)
94xx Newly tooled body.
J94 Saddle Tank
4F 0-6-0 Tender Loco (BR and LMS Black
Jinty
57xx Pannier
Bachbmann Farish "re-treads" finer wheels and better liveries: -
94xx
J94
4F
Jinty
57xx Pannier
New Bachmann Farish: -
J39
4F (coreless motor)
Jinty (coreless motor)
64xx Pannier (coreless motor)
To Come: -
J72
I think that's it!
Roy
Thanks for the info, both have been serviced and painted by Ozymandius ready for transfers and detailing. I bought them 30 years ago. Run like a dream now😊
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g128/achilles1_2006/14991911_10154217884001859_294473755704312293_n.jpg)
And the Original J69 ready for restoration
Looking at the photos of the Holden tanks I think there is a good reason why Farish and Dapol have yet to touch it (nor for that matter any of the OO manufacturers).
There were quite a lot of these locos and they got to a good number of places, but there were at least two (and possibly three) tank widths, two tank heights, two or three cab opening variants, two cab roof variants, and more than one bunker.
Add presence or absence of large toolboxes and domes usually on the first boiler ring (but maybe not always) it gets close to being a class of over 100 of which no two were the same. Locos could also revert to an earlier version on overhaul so timelines were not all that logical. Indeed it makes the Gresley A1/A3 class a very simple one to follow by comparison.
Rather a shame because it is a rather pretty little thing in the Liverpool Street Pilot version (or as preserved).
Les
well if they could base it on the preserved one at Bressingham and do it in BR and GER liveries, That would make a nice addition. Better still a J15 :)
Some of the J69s sent to Scotland in the 30s returned to the GER section in the 50s, and had escaped Stratford's modifications-noticeably retaining the GER cab roof, and not the higher LNER one; at least some retained the GER stovepipe chimney; and despite having NBR style shunters' footsteps fitted. they still looked very close to the original GER version.
I agree almost with Les-there were so many variations that to get a commercial version for a number of liveries/long timescale is very difficult without VERY good research.
Pity-I could do with two or three (or their cousins, the J68s which basically had a side window cab).
A kit that fits not mentioned so far ( I think); I used the Farish Pannier chassis (57xx?) to go under a Langley LNER N7.
Martyn
This is my GP Tank from the late 80's/ early 90's, as you can see comes with a box with a plastic sleeve. I bought this for a layout made for my two sons, the other loco I bought is a 4P which is in bits. The GP tank is a good runner it has been converted to dcc by Digitrains, I thought it was a Jinty for ages till coming on this site. I am thinking of buying a Langley kit to convert it into a L& Y tank engine.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/1784-101116215354.jpeg)
While we are on this topic, did BR J69 etc have red coupling rods, I know the GER generally did?
Ah just found out it may have been the Liverpool St pilot was the only one with red coupling rods
AFAIK, you are correct in only the Liverpool St pilot when repainted into quasi-GER blue normally had red coupling rods.
At least one J17 (65567) and one J15 (65469) also had red rods when 'ponged up' for specials, and N7 69614 also had them when it was Liverpool St. pilot.
Martyn