I'm looking into creating an imaginary train running from York to Penzance in the mid 60s travelling down the ECML to Sandy, then across to Oxford for a loco change before heading off to the west country. Initial loco maybe a Deltic or Brush Type 4, changing at Oxford to a Western for the remainder of the journey. I've estimated times based on distances between locations.
What does the collective think, and would someone like to suggest a formation of MK1s please?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/156/264-181225140154-1568611318.jpeg)
Hi Mick
Thinking about the SW part of the journey :
Bristol to Exeter is only 1 hour (almost exactly ) to include a 2 min stop at Taunton.
Exeter to Plymouth is around 47 mins including the usual Cross Country stops at Newton Abbot and Totnes.
Plymouth to Penzance is more leisurely even at today's speeds and is usually 117 mins or so. It's further than you think and even Cross Country trains will make several stops eg Liskeard, Bodmin Road Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne and PZ.
It's a long old haul. I should know as I used to do it often enough.
Hope that helps
Martin
Mick
Have you considered working timetables
Railwaybooks.co.uk
Transportpasttimes.co.uk
Sadly I can't help with steam locomotive haulage except rmweb
Formations maybe the odd Gresley or Stanier in the formation but a brake coach or two, corridor, open and a restaurant/ catering vehicle would be included and maybe a portion for Newquay/ St Ives and the lovely coastal destinations would be included
There would very likely be 2 or 3 stops for a change of crew on the way (due to route knowledge) but potentially the same loco would work right through if it was a type known to all crews. Brush type-4 (cl 47) were, and the other possibility is a Peak.
As to formation, the closest example I can offer up is a 1966 Newcastle-Poole (via York/Derby/Oxford) 'Summer Saturday only' which is given as Brake-composite/First/First/Buffet/Second/Second/Second/Second/Brake-Second/Composite/Second. Doesn't specify whether corridor or open, I'd guess probably corridor for the firsts and brake-comp, but the rest could be either.
The Comp & Second after the second Brake are interesting - I'd guess at strengthening over the core formation, either Seasonal or Weekend so you could drop those two for a shorter formation.
Quote from: crewearpley40 on December 18, 2025, 02:43:34 PMFormations maybe the odd Gresley or Stanier in the formation
Given the route suggested, it's most likely a NE Region train, so Gresleys/Thompsons are possibles but Stanier very unlikely, especially odd single coaches - they tried not to because of the need for a gangway adaptor to fit to mk1s...
Quote from: crewearpley40 on December 18, 2025, 02:43:34 PMSadly I can't help with steam locomotive haulage
That's OK - neither the Deltic not the Western mentioned are steam locos ;)
Quote from: port perran on December 18, 2025, 02:32:15 PMHi Mick
Thinking about the SW part of the journey :
Bristol to Exeter is only 1 hour (almost exactly ) to include a 2 min stop at Taunton.
Exeter to Plymouth is around 47 mins including the usual Cross Country stops at Newton Abbot and Totnes.
Plymouth to Penzance is more leisurely even at today's speeds and is usually 117 mins or so. It's further than you think and even Cross Country trains will make several stops eg Liskeard, Bodmin Road Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne and PZ.
It's a long old haul. I should know as I used to do it often enough.
Hope that helps
Martin
Hi Martin,
Thanks for the info but you often mention 'is' whereas I'm going back 60 years or so. Would that still apply? I have not factored in any stops other than those in my rudimentary timetable which is, of course, a work of fiction ;)
Quote from: crewearpley40 on December 18, 2025, 02:43:34 PMMick
Have you considered working timetables
Railwaybooks.co.uk
Transportpasttimes.co.uk
Sadly I can't help with steam locomotive haulage except rmweb
Formations maybe the odd Gresley or Stanier in the formation but a brake coach or two, corridor, open and a restaurant/ catering vehicle would be included and maybe a portion for Newquay/ St Ives and the lovely coastal destinations would be included
I'll check those timetables out, Chris, but am not aiming for total accuracy.
Steam does not feature in my imagined journey but coaching stock is up for discussion. Ta
Possible Type 4 south on first leg, Western west of Bristol
Its Rule 1. A Restaurant Car be nice but Catering as Paul suggested useful
Hi Mick
Those times are current but I doubt that they varied much in the mid 60s so if you aren't going for anything too exact then you won't I think, be far off.
As for traction, I'm not so sure about Peaks or Class 47s working right through in the mid 60s.
I don't think they got as far down as Penzance until late 60s/early 70s.
I can check for certain if you want me to look it up.
And, were Penzance to York trains a thing?
Wouldn't they take the Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield route? Or is Rule 1 coming into play which is fine.
Quote from: crewearpley40 on December 18, 2025, 03:39:08 PMPossible Type 4 south on first leg, Western west of Bristol
Its Rule 1. A Restaurant Car be nice but Catering as Paul suggested useful
Not sure why a Western only Western of Bristol as I've seen many at Oxford :hmmm:
Quote from: port perran on December 18, 2025, 03:44:56 PMHi Mick
And, were Penzance to York trains a thing?
Wouldn't they take the Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield route? Or is Rule 1 coming into play which is fine.
Aaaarrrgh. I hate Rule 1
The train has to pass through Oxford even if it's been diverted for some reason :D
I can imagine a lot of luggage on such a working so would expect a full BG to feature
Quote from: Newportnobby on December 18, 2025, 02:09:36 PM(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/156/264-181225140154-1568611318.jpeg)
From Table 135 in a 1980-81 public timetable here's part of a journey of a summer Saturday cross country service
Bristol depart 13.08
Exeter arrive 14.22
Exeter depart 14.23
Calls at Teignmouth and Newton Abbot
Plymouth arrive 15.39
Plymouth depart 15.57
Calling all stations from Liskeard
Penzance arrive 18.06
I'm not expert, but 45 minutes for loco change seems excessive. And frustrating for passengers...Ten minutes would probably be more than enough.
Martyn
Plymouth you'd need to drop some coaches back then for the grades and the short platforms so you'd probably want the buffet and a few coaches such that you can drop the train end at Plymouth ?
ie you'd want
Brake blah blah blah Brake catering blah blah brake
I used to travel from Bristol to Crewe during my college days. In 1966 and 1967 the 'recommended' route was via Newport and Shrewsbury but around 1968 this changed to using the NE/SW trains via B'ham NS. The motive power via Newport was almost always a Western hydraulic loco but via B'ham it was almost always a Peak (although I can remember a Class 31 being used from Birmingham to Gloucester on one occasion - possibly a failure substitute).
I honestly cannot imagine a regular service from York to Cornwall using Oxford although my girlfriend (now wife of 55 years) did get diverted that way on one occasion following a crash.
Earlier this year my train from Bristol was diverted through the Severn Tunnel and Chepstow following a bridge strike. Even that short diversion added 75 minutes to the journey!
Quote from: Wrinkly1 on December 18, 2025, 11:47:53 PMI honestly cannot imagine a regular service from York to Cornwall using Oxford although my girlfriend (now wife of 55 years) did get diverted that way on one occasion following a crash.
(Seizes on this as perfect justification :) )
Please folks, the clue is in the title of the thread - 'Imaginary'
Just as there are no such places as 'Kimbolted' or 'Bletchford' except for in my bonce ;D
Which is a worrying place at the best of times ;D
This thread has prompted me to ponder more about diverted trains and how relatively infrequent they are nowadays compared with the days of British Railways. Today the instant reaction to a blocked route is nearly always "Rail Replacement" buses whereas 'in the olden days' an alternative route would be the preferred option. My first memory of this was as a child of, maybe 7 or 8, going on a day excursion with my family from Bristol to Weymouth. A derailment occurred just outside Bath just as we departed which blocked the lines so the train was sent back to Bristol (pulled by our castle class engine then running tender first). After a brief wait we set off again via the North Somerset line through Radstock to Frome where the train eventually regained its original route. (I lost 2 hours beach time at Weymouth because of that!).
Nowadays there are few alternative routes available and even when there is one often the train crews aren't signed off for them. Look at the length of preparation Avanti is having to make for the West Coast line closure.
It's good that there are occasional instances where alternatives are used. I mentioned in my previous post how a Cross Country service from Bristol to Birmingham was easily diverted via the Severn Tunnel. The crew must have already had clearance for the Cross Country route to Cardiff. Yesterday the line between Stockport and Stoke was flooded and trains were able to divert via Crewe and Alsager instead. If you're not in a rush the diversion can add interest!
There was a service from Newcastle to Bournemouth via York (where in some winters it started), Pontefract, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester, Banbury, Oxford and Reading West Curve to reach the Bournemouth line at Basingstoke. After the closure of the Great Central the train was re-routed from York via Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham New Street, Coventry, Banbury, Reading (reverse) to terminate at Poole.
There were two sets of coaches: one belonging to Southern Region, the other to North Eastern Region.
According to an article in BRM Oct 2016, the formation of the 10:50am Bournemouth West to York in 1963-4 was BSK, TSO, RMB, TSO, CK, BSK(York), CK, BSK(Sheffield). The NER set had RB instead of RMB. All coaches were Mk 1 stock. From 1962 the motive power over the Great Central was EE Type 3 or Brush Type 4.
I have a WTT for June 1963 which should have the timings for the Basingstoke to Bournemouth section of the journey. If you are interested I'll dig them out.
Hope this helps,
Ali
Quote from: Ali Smith on December 19, 2025, 10:32:01 AMThere was a service from Newcastle to Bournemouth via York (where in some winters it started), Pontefract, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester, Banbury, Oxford and Reading West Curve to reach .............
Ali
That's good info, Ali, and I'll take what I've left of your quote as a partial success ;)
Likewise the coaching stock info.
Let's face it, I have absolutely no proof but it wouldn't surprise me if a Deltic wasn't allowed along the Varsity line maybe due to weight restrictions. There have been various recent appearances of Deltics at Oxford but there seems to be no info as to how they got there
Even today journey times from Exeter to Plymouth are a minimum of 55 minutes, 68 if it stops all shacks. I would therefore pitch it around 60 minutes for calls at NTA & TOT, if you're using a Western for traction (if the Deltic worked through give yourself a little longer, not so good on Rattery bank, I understand, although still very capable climbers).
Plymouth to Penzance is 115 minutes minimum for limited stops nowadays, remembering that the service is provided by IETs with multiple engines and good acceleration. Therefore, you're looking at about 120 minutes.
This is very interesting.
However, a 45 minute loco change at Oxford is really excessive, as Martyn has already commented. The Southern Region allowed as many as 4 minutes for a loco and crew change at Salisbury for the "Atlantic Coast Express" - a shunter would be stationed at the platform end, and, as soon as the train stopped, he would be down between the tender and leading coach, disconnecting the vac and steam heating pipes and uncoupling the engine, which would immediately depart, allowing the new loco to back straight onto the train from a nearby spur. The very rapid loco change was applied to the majority of trains that that called at Salisbury. Nine Elms locos and crews rarely worked west of Salisbury; similarly, Exmouth Junction locos and crews rarely worked east of Salisbury. Of course we must not forget that Brighton-Cardiff and Portsmouth-Plymouth trains also changed their locos and crews there, from an SR loco to a WR loco, and vice versa, in the instance of the inter-regional services. I have had several experiences of this and the loco change was very slick, to my young teenage mind we'd barely stopped at Salisbury before we were away again, having exchanged our WC/BB Pacific for either a Castle or Hall 4-6-0.
My own layout, "Trewenn" (needs much scenic work do be done!), is "located" at the end of a meandering Western Region branch from Barnstaple, and at the end of a Southern branch line off the North Cornwall Line, west of Launceston. On summer Saturdays only, the Southern receives an inter-regional service from Nottingham (Victoria) via the Great Central main line, Banbury, Oxford (loco change), Didcot East Junction, Reading West Curve, Basingstoke (detach the Bournemouth/Pool/Weymouth portion), Salisbury (loco change), Exeter Central (detach the Barnstaple/Ilfracombe portion), and the remaining five or six coaches (Thompsons/Mk.1s), go forward, with a new loco (more usually a Standard Class 4MT 2-6-0, or a Class N 2-6-0), via Okehampton, Halwill Junction, and Launceston to Trewenn. Of course, there's also a service in the opposite direction to Nottingham.
What fun a vivid imagination can be!
'The Western' passes through Heatherley on its way from the NE to the SW behind Brush Type 4 number D1500
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/157/264-220126110523-1574851891.jpeg)
At Oxford the loco was changed to a diesel hydraulic 'Western' number D1012 'Western Firebrand' for the run to the far south west and is seen here in the countryside just south of Bristol
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/157/264-220126110135-157469119.jpeg)
Over to our roving reporter
@port perran ...................
Fantastic photos mick
As for D1500 prior to the move to Newcastle Gateshead depot would have had been based real life at London Finsbury Park with spells at Sheffield Darnall, Tinsley and Immingham
See please BR Loco Database
Here's the train wending its way along the South Devon Sea Wall between Dawlish and Teignmouth on its way to Penzance :
The Western will work right through from Oxford to its destination in the far South West.
Quote from: port perran on January 23, 2026, 12:01:23 PMHere's the train wending its way along the South Devon Sea Wall between Dawlish and Teignmouth on its way to Penzance :
Someone in carriage 'B' has their transistor radio volume rather high!! ;)
And just for fun we can see that the late running train will arrive at Penzance at 20-58.
Quote from: Newportnobby on January 23, 2026, 12:08:53 PMQuote from: port perran on January 23, 2026, 12:01:23 PMHere's the train wending its way along the South Devon Sea Wall between Dawlish and Teignmouth on its way to Penzance :
Someone in carriage 'B' has their transistor radio volume rather high!! ;)
Tranny in 1960s speak I think.
With a round dial with which to tune the chosen station.
Who ever it was had a "craving" for the West Country! Nice photos and videos Gentlemen.
Tim
I do like a maroon Western with small yellow panels.
NE to SW workings in the 1960s included many made up of portions combining en-route. These are from the Summer 1964 time-table and run via Barnt Green.
York-Bristol: SK BSK SK SK CK CK RMB SK SK BSK
Sheffield/Newcastle/Derby-Penzance: BSK SK SK CK SK BSK/SK SK SK BCK/CK SK
Hull/Newcastle-Paignton: BSK SK SK CK/BSK SK SK SK CK SK BSK
Newcastle-Plymouth: BSK SK BSK SK SK SK SK SK BSK SK SK BSK
Bradford-Paignton: BSK SK SK SK SK SK BSK
It's interesting to note that only one of the trains had any buffet/restaurant cars and none had a fully first class coach - composites being used throughout. Portion working shows
I remember seeing the Cross-Country loco-hauled (CL47) Poole-Newcastle service at Winchester on many Saturdays. Mostly SK's and BSK's with at most one FK or a couple of composites. As far as catering is concerned, I jumped on one service to nip up to Basingstoke and I recall there was one of those "Traveller's Fare" tea-trolleys but certainly no buffet.
Similar for the 1970s services from Brum to Devon/Cornwall. Coach A was generally a second or brake second and was uininhabitable as it stank of diesel fumes from the locos, coach B was uninhabitable as it was full of smokers and the rest of it was generally very beaten up Mark 1 stock. They were not routes that received much love.
Worst case though was 3 Tysley DMUs with no toilets from London to Teignmouth with a toilet break at Bristol. That was a saga from the days when they thought their job was to actually get you there somehow rather than mutter about circumstances beyond our control and tell you to come back tomorrow.
Big shout out to Martin
@port perran for suggesting we create the story and for the continuance of the journey into the West Country :claphappy:
:thankyousign: