(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/10996-220425165117.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=151361)
So thank you for the invite into the forum.
I had the idea a few years back to get my son into the hobby and as we had limited space went at the time with the N gauge option. He was too young at the time to deal with adult models (aren't we all :D ) and was happy with the temporary OO stuff from grandparents.
We now have some cleared garage space to set up a layout together - proper paternal bonding stuff. [Picture is just of the basic loop for testing stock].
Track at the moment is Kato Unitrack which was ideal for child hands and has been been cleaned up well and electric testing around the loop is mainly good. I may go proper modelling Peco track in the long term but initially will stick with the Kato
Rolling stock has been stored very poorly though and I have a few questions re setting up a new layout and repairs. I've split the questions below if that's ok, for ease of replies with quotes.
Question 1 - DCC or not?
We have only one piece of DCC rolling stock - a pretty spectacular Revolution Trains Pendolino 9 car Unit. Control is from a Roco Z21.
I'm wondering whether it it's worth the expense of updating other stock to DCC, if it's even possible for some or just downgrading the Pendolino to DC with blanking chip. I'm not sure if the Kato models could even be upgraded to DCC
We have the following DC stock:
(1) Kato TGV Sud-Est (the orange one)
(2) Kato TGV La Ligne de Coeur (silver six car set)
(3) Kato first generation Eurostar (nine car set)
(4) Thomas and Friends Thomas loco and Percy loco (these two seem far to small for DCC chips - I'm not particularly interested in real world versimiltude - they could potentially run on their own dedicated "novelty" line on DC only)
(5) Bachmann Arriva Class 52 EMU
(6) Farish A4 "Silver Fox"
(7) Dapol Class 58 Freight
(8) Bachmann Class 350/2 Desiro 4 Car EMU London Midland
(9) 2 sets of Dapol Virgin Voyager DMU's
So what I am looking for is a view on the practicality and cost of upgrading all of these to DCC or whether for some it is just not feasible at all. My hesitation is that we have so much DC stock and a lot of Kato electric signals/points/switches that are DC but I suppose could be sold.
Question 2 - DCC feeder track
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/10996-220425172600.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=151363)
If sticking with DCC we have a Roco Z21 controller - how do I feed power to the track? The Z21 comes with the pictured power feed for HO scale. When we initially bought it I did succesfully Heath Robinson a connection to the N gauge Kato track.
Trying that again I can't measure any power with my multimeter from Z21 to track.
Is there a bespoke feeder track to solve this or do I have to learn to wire and solder?
Also the two prong connection into green plastic clamps on the Z21 itself doesn't seem an easy fit or secure. What am I missing?!
Really the choice to go DCC is up to you, in terms of will there be enough benefit in doing it considering the cost to upgrade? Maybe it's justifiable if you particularly love sounds, constant lights, and multiple locos on the same track.
My layout's 30 years old and I run it on DC 99% of the time. Just occasionally I'll plug in a PowerCab just to exercise my small fleet of DCC fitted locos, but I have 300+ DC locos and units so for me it's not worth it plus I don't really want to hack old 1970s/80s models around even though I'm perfectly capable of fitting DCC. I'm not a fan of sound so that's not a draw to going DCC.
Just about anything can be DCC fitted, even if it means hard-wiring the decoder into models that don't have a socket. You do need to consider space for the decoder, which can entail milling out some of the chassis block in older non-dcc-ready models. Is it the current Bachmann or the old Tomix Thomas and Percy you have? The Tomix are a bit larger than the Bachmann equivalents.
Will you want to control the points via DCC? You don't have to. You'll need accessory decoders suitable for the Kato 2-wire point motors. It's another aspect where personally I'm not impressed with operating points via my PowerCab nor via a touch-screen app. I like a good old traditional control panel with buttons :)
The simple option to feed Unitrack is to use the feed wires which plug in underneath the feeder track, cut off the Kato plug and join to the DCC output of the Z21 using a choc-block or whatever method suits.
https://traintrax.co.uk/20041-62mm-feeder-track-p-281.htm (https://traintrax.co.uk/20041-62mm-feeder-track-p-281.htm)
(https://traintrax.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20_041_01.jpg)
You can also buy pre-wired Unijoiners which can help with adding more feeds, although feeding via the fishplate is not the best option as you still have the loose fit of the Unijoiners to contend with.
I don't know the connection method used with the Z21, but clearly other folk manage to connect up to their layouts without problem.
Question 3 - replacement parts/repairs
Because of the poor storage, we are missing some entire bogies and couplings so looking for any advice on best source for Kato parts/repairs.
The Dapol Voyagers are also running very slow and one of the magnetic couplers has sheared away.
I fear I may have caused this myself - I tried to clean the Dapol Class 58 using TidyTrack device. Was running ok before but now only at snail speed with no traction. I may have burned out the motor. So finally, seeking some tips on Dapol repairs (or whether there might be something I can look at, at home).
Apologies for so many questions but all and any help will be much appreciated! :claphappy:
Quote from: ntpntpntp on April 22, 2025, 05:44:15 PMThe simple option to feed Unitrack is to use the feed wires which plug in underneath the feeder track, cut off the Kato plug and join to the DCC output of the Z21 using a choc-block or whatever method suits.
You can also buy pre-wired Unijoiners which can help with adding more feeds, although feeding via the fishplate is not the best option as you still have the loose fit of the Unijoiners to contend with.
Thanks for both replies
The Thomas and Percy are the Tomix models.
I'm minded to stick with DC as per your experience but that will mean downgrading the Pendolino and selling the Z21, which is a shame. I really can't make my mind up.
Thanks also re power connection to Z21 - I have a few Kato feeder tracks so we can cobble one to the Z21. Just didn't want to start cutting off their plugs without advice as I am a very new newbie!
Kato spares you could try dealers such as TrainTrax and also check on ebay. Kato product is mostly batch runs though, so spares for older models can be more difficult to obtain.
Does the 58 have traction tyres? If your 58 has lost traction then it could be that using the TidyTrack cleaner has destroyed the tyres? Simply cleaning it shouldn't burn anything out unless you press really hard and stall the model.
Thanks again.
No traction tyres on my Bachmann Class 58. I have definitely done something to the electrics as it had directional running lights which are now dead!
Hi,
Unless you need the money, I wouldn't get rid of the Z21, it is one of the very best DCC systems out there.
I don't know where you got the Z21 from but they don't come with anything like the "H" shaped PCB. A brand new one comes with green, 2 pin, mating connectors for the track and programming bus connectors on the back of the unit. They are screw terminal connectors, so no soldering involved, just strip back the wires that come with the Kato feeder track, push then into the Z21 mating connectors and screw them tight. The mating connector just pushes into the Z21 connectors.
The Dapol Voyager is not a particularly good model, I have 2 and only one of them runs satisfactorily, but it is very noisy.
The Pendolino doesn't need to be 'downgraded' for DC, the DCC chips in it should work fine on DC (unless it has had a CV change) and still provide some sounds.
Regards,
John P
Thanks John P for another comprehensive and sympathetic to a newbie reply. :beers:
As said I'm conflicted but would like to stick with the Z21 DCC if I can get it working.
The pictured track ("H" shaped PCB) connector is exactly as supplied in original box but is for HO/OO gauge when I bought it about 6 years back and we don't have the "green, 2 pin, mating connectors", only the green connectors to the Z21 track output itself. Happy to strip wires on the Kato connectors though and try and report back!
As for the Pendolino on DC track, it has lights and sounds but does not move! [I have tested it with power car only.]
Finally identified that weird H track power connector: it's for Roco GeoLine HO track apparently.
https://www.modellbahnunion.com/HO-gauge/GeoLine-Einspeisungselement-DCC.htm (https://www.modellbahnunion.com/HO-gauge/GeoLine-Einspeisungselement-DCC.htm)
The Pendolinos quite often don't work with just the power car, hook up a couple of carriages and try it again.
The Z21 should have come with a couple of these in the box
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/9/main_34193.jpeg)
If you don't have them they are really easy to find online and aren't expensive.
I can see in your first photo that you have a multimeter.
To check the Z21 just connect it directly to the DCC bus output of the Z21 and measure the AC voltage. Depending on the brand of multimeter you should see between 12V & 16V AC.
Regards,
John P
Thanks again John P.
We don't have/never had those small green track connectors for the Z21! Will try and find online or strip the wires on the Kato track feedeer and test.
As for the Pendolino I have tried different rakes with some/all carriages on the DC track with no movement but will keep testing too. I could run an isolated DCC loop on the outside of the layout just for the Pendolino, but that would reduce the interest!
So what does the socket look like on the back of your Z21? Presumably it should be a socket suitable for the green connectors.
The green connectors are available
https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-96321-spare-track-connector-for-z21-24444-p.asp (https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-96321-spare-track-connector-for-z21-24444-p.asp)
IF you bought the Pendolino secondhand then the previous owner MIGHT have disabled DC running in its decoders.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: ntpntpntp on April 22, 2025, 08:20:21 PMSo what does the socket look like on the back of your Z21? Presumably it should be a socket suitable for the green connectors.
The green connectors are available
https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-96321-spare-track-connector-for-z21-24444-p.asp (https://www.scograil.co.uk/roco-96321-spare-track-connector-for-z21-24444-p.asp)
I think the slight confusion is that we already have your pictured green plastic connectors that go into the back of the Z21
I think John P's picture is of a green power feed connector to the track rather than the plug to the back of the Z21? It looks like John P's pictures is of a green felt device with a metal prong to the outisde of the track? That's what I may need to source although will also dabble with cutting the plug on a Kato power feed.
Bit odd that Roco doesn't appear to supply any dedicated pieces of track feed like the Kato one you pictured above.
Nope, John's picture is the plug for the back of the controller. The wires then need connecting to the track. You can solder them or splice them into the Kato connector.
I would definitely go DCC given the substantial investment you've made. Among your models the Voyagers and the 350 are a pain as they each need 3 decoders (if you run the voyagers as a pair you could get away with 4 in the two sets, having no lights in the 'inner' driving coaches.
The 150, 58 have 6-pin decoder sockets, plug and play. The TGVs will depend on age; they may have decoder sockets, but may not. The Eurostar will need a new PCB, the Digitrax DN163K0B (IIRC) is the easiest to fit. The Tomix models will need more heavy work to install.
Quote from: bwj on April 22, 2025, 08:54:26 PMBit odd that Roco doesn't appear to supply any dedicated pieces of track feed like the Kato one you pictured above.
It's not odd. The Z21 can be used with any scale and any brand of track.
Most people solder wires to their track rather than rely on pre-wired track or fishplates.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: bwj on April 22, 2025, 08:03:48 PMWe don't have/never had those small green track connectors for the Z21! Will try and find online or strip the wires on the Kato track feedeer and test.
As @njee pointed out, the connectors in my picture are the ones that plug into the back of the Z21, they are just lying on one side with a bit of shadow,
@ntpntpntp 's link shows them better.
It sounds like you have some of those already and they can be used with the Kato feeder track by cutting off one of the Kato connectors and wiring to them instead.
Regards,
John P
I don't want to run the risk of Godwin's law coming to the gentle world of N Gauge modelling so I have created an image of my Z21 connections to try and avoid confusion!
If I understand it correctly the only options for powering N Gauge track from the Z21 is to run bare wire from the Z21 Main Track output with the green screw plug, and then solder to the track and/or cut the Kato track feeder cable and bare wire that into the Z21? The connector supplied with the Z21 is useless?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/10996-220425215115.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=151372)
Correct. A lot of people use a bus wire to power the track - have a ring of cable (I use 1.5mm stripped from twin/earth) to which you attach thinner 'dropper' wires, which you solder to the track. I just connect my controller to the bus in the same way.
Just been checking some German forums about that black GeoLine cable with the H plug. They say if the two pins on the other end don't fit the green connector then cut the pins off, bare the wire ends and connect those into the green connector. Geoline Track came out before the Z21. To me it seems odd they would include a cable that doesn't fit, but they say that 2 pin plug fits one of the other older DCC booster units.
Quite honestly, you can put the GeoLine cable to one side as you're not using HO Geoline track. Cut the while plastic plug off the end of a Kato power feed cable and connect the bare ends into the green connector, and plug that into the Z21 track output.
Are you saying your green connector for the Z21 doesn't have screw terminals to secure bare wires? If that's the case order one of those screw type connectors I linked to earlier.
Thanks again for all the help offered. :claphappy:
I now have measurable AC power running from the Z21 to the track.
I can get the DCC Pendolino moving but still need to learn the intricacies of Z21 programming. None of the other functions are recognised by the Z21 (I did use the programming track) although bizarrely there are carriage lights on but only in the rear four coaches!
The other frustration with the Pendolino is that the couplings (both the magnetic and the plastic clips) are incredibly weak, leading to constant decoupling.
Also while I am running the train on long straights with wide curves, track all checked for potential "tripping hazards" such as uneven rails, but there are constant derailments.
As this happens most often on the single point I've got on the testing loop, might putting a re-railng track after the point help? Tips for succesful running and maintaing coupling in the long term would be appreciated though :*(
Quote from: bwj on April 23, 2025, 05:56:00 PMI can get the DCC Pendolino moving but still need to learn the intricacies of Z21 programming. None of the other functions are recognised by the Z21 (I did use the programming track) although bizarrely there are carriage lights on but only in the rear four coaches!
The other frustration with the Pendolino is that the couplings (both the magnetic and the plastic clips) are incredibly weak, leading to constant decoupling.
In the Z21 app you need to create entries for the various functions that the sound equipped Pendolinos support, these should be documented in the literature that comes with the model.
Here are some screen shots from the Z21 app on my iPhone showing what I mean.
In the app select Vehicles
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/3871-230425183110-151393245.png)
You'll see something like this
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/3871-230425183110-1513951517.png)
but probably not so many vehicles.
Use the '+' sign to add a new vehicle, or if you already done that select your entry for the Pendolino.
The individual vehicle tab should look like this
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/3871-230425183110-1513621027.png)
You can enter it's address, give it a name, and add a picture.
Then select the Functions tab
This one shows my entries for my sound equipped Pendolino, on your app it will be blank and you'll need to add the various functions.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/3871-230425183110-1513922352.png)
To add a function, just click on one of the blank function spaces and you should see something like this
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/151/3871-230425183110-1513931584.png)
On the Pendolinos, Function 1 turns the sounds on and off so it is configured as a Switch, if it were a momentary function such as a horn it would be configured as Push-Button.
Hope that helps.
For the carriage lights, just the 1st class carriages have light bars and they are on all the time, extra light bars were available to fit into the other carriages if needed.
For the couplings, they aren't magnetic, they are a push fit and can be quite tricky to connect, but once they are fully inserted they will not come apart, they are anything but 'weak' :D
They have electrical contacts as part of the coupling.
Regards,
John P
Thanks jpendle for the comprehensive guide!
Again may be down to my newbie ignorance but I had thought that there was a way with the Pendolino on the programming track to get the Z21 to read the loco and it's functions? There are 22 diffrent functions on this model - they all have to be inputted by hand, one by one?
Once all that's done the train set has two driving cars how do I ensure that they work in tandem?
Re the couplings they are described in the manual as "kinetic couplings" which pass a current and are claimed to be unbreakable in testing. Sadly not my experience. Is there some magic to connecting them as the manual doesn't help! Will add a photo when back from a trip.
Welcome
Looks simple and a nice plan should you go into scenery.
There are plenty of options should you need to consider and buy storage boxes with foam.
Chris
John's right re: the Pendolino couplings. They're not magnetic. As you say, they are kinematic (meaning they can move independently from the vehicles, rather than being fixed body/bogie mounted) and they're conducting. I find the easiest way to get them to connect is to lift both coaches slightly as you push together. If properly coupled they absolutely won't come uncoupled. At all.
Are you mixing up with the Voyager? The Dapol one does use magnetic couplings which aren't anything special.
On the lights - yes, the first class coaches (except the driving coach) have working table lamps. You can get light bars which will give 'proper' lighting to the central 7/9 coaches. You cannot fit interior lighting to the motor coaches due to the chassis block.
I don't use a Z21, but you don't need to program each function, they're all there, just push each function button. You may need to choose an appropriate icon for each though to remind you which is the toilet announcement and which is the drivers door or whatever!
Quote from: bwj on April 23, 2025, 11:12:42 PMAgain may be down to my newbie ignorance but I had thought that there was a way with the Pendolino on the programming track to get the Z21 to read the loco and it's functions? There are 22 diffrent functions on this model - they all have to be inputted by hand, one by one?
Once all that's done the train set has two driving cars how do I ensure that they work in tandem?
The Pendolino driving cards will work in tandem as long as they both have the same DCC address.
As far as reading functions from the loco, that is only possible with ESU decoders that use Railcom+, with a DCC system that also uses Railcom+, which basically means it only works with the ESU DCC system.
And yes you do need to enable each function, one by one, in the Z21 app.
BUT, and this is a big difference, this means that you can group all the most commonly used functions together, you can set any function to be momentary or to act as an on/off switch, you can give them any name you like, and you can pick an icon for each function that suits you.
As opposed to having a handset with Function buttons numbered from 0 to 9, needing to press 2 or more buttons to get to functions 10 and above, and with no indication on the handset as to what each function actually does for the loco you are driving.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: njee20 on April 24, 2025, 12:16:03 AMI don't use a Z21, but you don't need to program each function, they're all there, just push each function button. You may need to choose an appropriate icon for each though to remind you which is the toilet announcement and which is the drivers door or whatever!
My first priority when back from my trip will be to program the toilet announcement!
Thanks for all the tips again.
I had a disappointing reply from the Traintrax (Kato dealers in UK) suggesting DCC fitting would be "very difficult" on our first gen Eurostar/TGV Sud-Est (the orange one)/older TGV Atlantique. I'd be fairly sure that none of them have DCC sockets ready but does anyone have another view?
Quote from: njee20 on April 24, 2025, 12:16:03 AMI don't use a Z21, but you don't need to program each function, they're all there, just push each function button. You may need to choose an appropriate icon for each though to remind you which is the toilet announcement and which is the drivers door or whatever!
Hi
@njee20 By default a new loco doesn't have any function buttons enabled on the Z21 app.
You have to select the functions you want to use in the vehicles editor before they can be used in the Steering (Driving) section.
All this can be simplified by copying the settings from a similar loco when a new one is set up.
Regards,
John P
How interesting! On the ECoS everything is there by default (well up to F20 or so, above that you enable them on a loco-by-loco basis), but with generic symbols you can go and update. That does sound a bit laborious.