I have 5 various vans from WHM, all LNER versions and needed N and E transfers.
Fox supplied these in a small sheet with various other letterings which were of no use to me.
The letters are in white (but appear pale yellow) on a backing of very pale blue.
I found them to be hardly visible, had virtually no margins around the letters and failed to find a way of applying them to the model.
The instructions advised that the card would curl up and then straighten again in hot water with a drop of washing-up liquid added to indicate when the transfer could be made.
This did not happen and I am at a loss to know when I can safely transfer letters to my models.
Any advice please on a suitable method?
Maurice C.
Quote from: mojo on February 17, 2025, 12:04:25 PMThe instructions advised that the card would curl up and then straighten again in hot water with a drop of washing-up liquid added to indicate when the transfer could be made.
This did not happen and I am at a loss to know when I can safely transfer letters to my models.
Any advice please on a suitable method?
I think you've misinterpreted the instructions slightly. The washing up liquid is to reduce the surface tension so that the water flows smoothly across the destination surface rather than forming blobs. It doesn't help with identifying when the transfer is ready to apply.
The way I do it is to have a shallow tray containing warm to hot water (hot bathroom tap hot, not boiling) with a drop of washing up liquid mixed in. I cut out one transfer (agreed, they can sometimes be hard to see, decent light and a magnifying glass helps) and drop it onto the water so that, hopefully, it floats as that makes it easier to grab with tweezers.
Depending on the transfer type, size, backing paper and water temperature I leave it for between ten and thirty seconds then hook it out and lay it on my workbench. I then gently poke it with a cocktail stick to see if the transfer is loose. If not, I leave it, maybe adding a bit more water with a fine brush, until it is loose.
NOTE - if you leave it floating on the water bath for too long the transfer will separate from the backing and float about on its own, a real pain to grab without damaging it.
I then lift the whole thing, including the backing paper, with tweezers and lay it on the model before gently sliding the transfer off the paper, using the aforementioned cocktail stick. Then I dispose of the backing paper, soak up most of the water around the transfer with a tissue and slide the transfer into place.
Finally I press it down firmly using either the tissue or a cotton bud before leaving it to dry.
Quote from: chrism on February 17, 2025, 12:18:25 PMI then gently poke it with a cocktail stick to see if the transfer is loose.
Instantly I was reminded of the Monty Python sketch "Self defence against fresh fruit" where one of the students asks "What about a pointed stick?"
:sorrysign: the taxi's just arrived
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 17, 2025, 12:24:26 PMQuote from: chrism on February 17, 2025, 12:18:25 PMI then gently poke it with a cocktail stick to see if the transfer is loose.
Instantly I was reminded of the Monty Python sketch "Self defence against fresh fruit" where one of the students asks "What about a pointed stick?"
At least it wasn't the comfy cushion, nobody expects that :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: chrism on February 17, 2025, 12:32:51 PMQuote from: Newportnobby on February 17, 2025, 12:24:26 PMQuote from: chrism on February 17, 2025, 12:18:25 PMI then gently poke it with a cocktail stick to see if the transfer is loose.
Instantly I was reminded of the Monty Python sketch "Self defence against fresh fruit" where one of the students asks "What about a pointed stick?"
At least it wasn't the comfy cushion, nobody expects that :smiley-laughing:
Comfy chair and soft cushions :nerner:
Everyone's mileage will vary, but waterslide decals do not need submerging for a long period of time.
Cut out the one you need, dunk for maybe 5 seconds then leave on your cutting mat or desk. When the decal is ready it will visibly have lifted slightly, and also can be pushed around the paper freely. Leaving the decal in the bowl of water gives the risk of the decal floating away and wrapping up into a knot in the water as well as diluting the glue the longer it is in the water, which is why I remove it and place in on my mat.
Once the decal is released from the backing paper, add a drop of water to the model where it will go.
Now take the backing paper to the model. Do not attempt to remove the decal from the paper with tweezers or similar as the decal can wrap around them.
Once the backing paper is on the model adjacent to where it will end up, slide the decal off the paper and into approximately the right spot. I use a paint brush, but cocktail stick, wet cotton bud etc also work.
Because the model is also wet, the decal can be positioned and adjusted easily with a small paint brush. Once correct, dab with a paper towel or cotton bud to soak up the excess and leave the decal to dry. The adhesive is a water based glue that needs time to dry to bond fully with the model.
Apart from using Micro Set to wet the model, this YouTube video shows a technique similar to my own. I use a paintbrush to slide off the backing paper, especially as N scale decals can be tiny.
https://youtu.be/QNYdd3Aley8?si=YtwCVIgJnOrgmqmB
Jo
Having been applying transfers for far too long with nearly all I just put a spot of water where it needs to go (not warm and no washing up liquid) and lay the transfer on top. I give it a prod now and then with a cocktail stick until it slides off.
With a longer transfer such as lining I put a small line of water on my cutting mat and lay it on top then when it moves lay it on the model and slide it off. Never had any issues.
Warm water makes the transfer float free from the backing paper quicker. Cold water does the job just as well.
I cut out the transfer needed, putting it on the lid from a sunflower spread tub. The lip of the lid stops the transfer and water flooding the workbenches. A saucer also works but takes up more space.
I then transfer water to the transfer with a paint brush. Leave the transfer for a minute or three and it should float free. Use a decent pair of tweezers to move the transfer to the model. Push the transfer off the paper with tweezers, paintbrush or cocktail stick. Microsol and Microset can help get transfers to stick to uneven surfaces.
Transfers stick best to gloss surfaces, but you only need to do the parts where the transfers will go..
Many thanks for the replies and most helpful suggestions/remedies.
Maurice C.
I have just achieved success using StephenB's method.
With a bit more practice and a new sheet of decals,(because I ruined all the others), I should hopefully be able to achieve my requirements.
Many thanks Stephen.
Yup the previous posts have described the typical methods.
Thin coat of gloss varnish first to avoid "silvering" (when the carrier film doesn't fully adhere to the base surface).
Drop the decal into water until it's ready to release (with the decals I make myself the base sheet turns darker blue when the water has soaked in).
Pick up the base sheet with tweezers and slide the decal into place using a paintrush.
I usually use Microscale Decal Set solution on the area where the decal is to be applied, and if there's a lot of lumps and bumps then I also use Microscale Decal Sol which softens and draws the carrier film over the raised detail. Sometimes take a few goes with the Decal Sol to fully sit down.
Once fully dry, overcoat with satin or matt varnish as preferred.
All the decals on the little battery shunter were home made and applied using the above method.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/141/medium_5885-130524142801.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=141935)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923102044.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135889)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923103103.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135890)
Best matt varnish to use?
I never like to quote a "best".
I use the Microscale matt, satin, and gloss varnishes, they seem to behave well with whatever the underlying paint is (generally Humbrol enamels).
Others will have different opinions / experiences depending on their preferences for paints.
Always test different products before applying to the main piece of work.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 18, 2025, 01:40:54 PMYup the previous posts have described the typical methods.
Thin coat of gloss varnish first to avoid "silvering" (when the carrier film doesn't fully adhere to the base surface).
Drop the decal into water until it's ready to release (with the decals I make myself the base sheet turns darker blue when the water has soaked in).
Pick up the base sheet with tweezers and slide the decal into place using a paintrush.
I usually use Microscale Decal Set solution on the area where the decal is to be applied, and if there's a lot of lumps and bumps then I also use Microscale Decal Sol which softens and draws the carrier film over the raised detail. Sometimes take a few goes with the Decal Sol to fully sit down.
Once fully dry, overcoat with satin or matt varnish as preferred.
All the decals on the little battery shunter were home made and applied using the above method.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/141/medium_5885-130524142801.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=141935)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923102044.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135889)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923103103.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135890)
please tell us more about making your own decals. Ive got several locos i need to name--and Fox dont do them.
@Bigmac my waterslide decals are produced using ancient tech (over 25 years old) :)
I run a Citizen Printiva 700 printer which uses the ALPS Microdry method of printing (dry wax-y sort of stuff on ribbons). The printer was old and second-hand when I bought it in the very early 2000s, it was an ebay purchase and had a label from a Hospital department! The Microdry technology is long defunct now which is a shame as it was a very good "home user" system with some models of printer being capable of printing in white, silver, and gold as well as standard CYMK. Kodak also licensed the technology and produced a system which used Red, Green, Blue, and Orange ribbons so I have some of those too. I have to "fool" my printer into recognising those other ribbons by sticking other labels on the cartridges (for example White I have to label as Silver) :)
The decal paper I use has a very thin film coating, much better than typical inkjet decal paper. It's by Microscale or Tanga Papa. Even my stock of paper is probably 20 years old now.
The artwork I draw up on an old copy of Microsoft Visio 2000 mainly because I got used to using it at work. It's a vector graphics program that has good support for creating designs in layers which you turn on and off for printing. I also use it for my layout plans.
I run the printer from an old Windows ME pc as that has the best version of printer driver which can do the required spot colours and overlays.
Because it's all so old and supplies are dwindling it's not something I offer out to produce anything for other people nowadays, strictly for my own projects.
One of the first things I produced, all the white decals were created and printed using the above tech.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/90/medium_5885-080420122754.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=90586)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/medium_5885-200920133302.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=99574)
Quote from: mojo on February 17, 2025, 12:04:25 PMI have 5 various vans from WHM, all LNER versions and needed N and E transfers.
Fox supplied these in a small sheet with various other letterings which were of no use to me.
The letters are in white (but appear pale yellow) on a backing of very pale blue.
I found them to be hardly visible, had virtually no margins around the letters and failed to find a way of applying them to the model.
The instructions advised that the card would curl up and then straighten again in hot water with a drop of washing-up liquid added to indicate when the transfer could be made.
This did not happen and I am at a loss to know when I can safely transfer letters to my models.
Any advice please on a suitable method?
Maurice C.
Indeed Fox can be a bit of a pain. I tend to the old Modelmaster NGS transfers for my N and E or elements from various bits nicked from more recent NGS sheets from Railtec rather than Fox - however I have been using Fox a little of late - they have a smaller N E for the 18" NER letters ( as oppose to 12" and 24" of the LNER ) which is what I want on the WHM 20 ton P6. Recent work on Alumina wagons and some Hytwins is also using a fair bit of Fox.
The method I have finally arrived at for applying them ( and all decals ) is that I cut them out of the sheet first and lay them dry on the wagon, apply a little "Mr Mark Setter" on the target area, use a paintbrush to generously wet the transfer (cold water - I don't bother with warm any more, I find its not needed ) and wait till its ready to float off and float it into place on the setter liquid guiding it with the tip of a very sharp pair of tweezers or a knife blade.. I then soak up the excess liquid with a dry brush or cotton bud taking care not to move the transfer. Finally I apply "Mr Mark Softer" - especially if the vehicle is particularly rough so that the transfer adjust to the planks. When all is done and thoroughly dry I spray **very** lightly with "Aqueous Premium Top Coat "Flat"".
Another thing I now do is completely process one side of a wagon at a time - once it is dry and varnished I do the other side. Why? - coz if I don't I seem to knock things off :-)
BTW - the Setter and Softer liquids and the varnish I use are GSI Creos Mr Hobby products which are widely available here in Japan but do seem to be exported globally.
Also I generally gloss the wagon before applying the decals. Although in these two WHM examples I did not as I liked the finish as purchased.
Both the P6 and the Alumina mix Fox, old NGS(Modelmaster) and Coventry Railworks(Railtec type).The following 4 pics were all taken before the final varnish coat.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/148/7694-020125163501-1481741996.jpeg)
This shows a problem on the Alumina ( to match a prototype photo I replaced "Empty To" from Empty to Burntisland with a "Return To" form a Return to East London which involved cutting through a transfer) and need to improve my technique ( another forum member suggested I use a razor blade next time ).However the final varnish almost completely fixed that.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/148/7694-020125163501-1481842231.jpeg)
This is the P6 close up
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/148/7694-020125163605-148187125.jpeg)
However you can see an issue which is highlighted even more on this next shot. Fox, unlike, say Railtec, is not "spot printed" ( is that the correct term?) and so I am left with film surround rising up ("silvering") because I did not gloss in this case and despite using the Softer.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/148/7694-020125163502-1481861867.jpeg)
Now applying the varnish coat and you can see the final result clearing up most of the defects.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/149/7694-190225122123-1492841062.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/149/7694-190225122123-149284788.jpeg)
One problem I have just spotted is some of the white spotting one can get from matt varnish even when lightly applied... However, finally, from "normal viewing distance" I think they look OK. Although there is still a tiny bit of defect under that N and due to the "Return to" cut.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/149/7694-190225122125-1492871010.jpeg)
And I just noticed how skewed the Northern Division "N" is. On which subject I have actually just ordered some small letters from Fox to enable me to provide wagons from the Southern and Central Divisions of the NER.
Going back to the above - use of gloss paint for the base layer - it really is worth following that recommendation.
For example this batch that I have been working on the last few days was much easier using gloss.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/149/7694-190225130215.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=149292)
Based the NGS RCH Kit:
* Carlton, Hinckley, Wemyss, Congleton and HM Office of Works are all old NGS (ex-Modelmaster ) sheets.
* Dorman Long and Weardale are Robbie Burns' ( which are a different technique where the white is achieved with a transparent transfer on a white background ).
Then two LNER wagons with doors removed are the beginnings of a pair of LNER "High Sided Twin Bolsters" which were introduced as an emergency wartime measure (Hytwins under BR) - these are end door wagons with end doors, and generally side doors, removed and bolsters added. In this case an LNER mineral and an RCH for the base a (although there were a number of other combinations produced). Fox produce a set of transfers for these that match the lettering variants on pages 239 and 240 of Taplow LNER Wagons Vol4B.
Finally I am trying something new with a PECO 10ft mineral wagon - picked up an extra fine tip marker and a super fine tip brush pen that are produced under the Mr Hobby Brand for Gundam kit builders. Makes painting the ironwork much easier. Next task is transfers on this.
BTW - all these are currently on their first side having been just varnished except the red one with iron work. Next step after the red one is the other side.
Colin.
Some very interesting ideas there. I have a shallow stainless steel dish into which I place a piece of kitchen sponge, cut to size, the sort of thing that comes about 200mm square and about 5mm thick. I fill the dish so the sponge is fully wet but not submerged or floating and just sit the transfer onto that. It can't escape and easy to pick up. For years I have used Solvaset to make the transfers snuggle down but it seems that is no longer available.
i no longer put the decal in a water bath--just place it dry on the flat surface of the model--and brush a little water over the area it will go--then soak the dry decal and wait till its loose. Ive also started using well diluted Glue'n'glaze in the water..
once the decal is free i nudge it into place--then blot off as much water as poss,
reposition if it has moved. and finally leave to dry. Varnish over next day. I use Valejo matt.
As well as asking for help on this forum, I emailed Fox about the issues.
I had a prompt reply which made a few suggestions, (nothing as good as the replies I had from here), and an offer of a free replacement which I accepted.
The new set arrived this morning and the difference in appearance is remarkable.
The background colour is a deeper shade of pale blue and gives a much clearer view of the decals such that it will be far easier to see where to cut.
Full marks to Fox customer service.
@mojo Don't know if you are a member of the NGS, however for reference there is still (or was until very recently when I bought a top-up) some stock of the very useful ex-Modelmaster LNER wagons sheet MMT157
Go to / NGS Shop / ex-Modelmaster Transfers & Etched Number/Name Plates / Transfers for Big 4 era / Pre '48 Locos & Freight Stock decals /
There is drop down menu of the available transfers on that page.
That sheet is easy to use as the transfers contrast sufficiently with the backing material ( there are pre-1938 LNER sheets on there as well - however I find that sheet more difficult as they are pretty much the same colour as the backing sheet ),
Cheers,
Colin.