Hi all,
Currently reviewing my rolling stock and I have 2 full rakes of Crimson and Cream coaches which I believe are a little too early liveried for my layout set to the end of steam.
What liveries and coaches on the market would be better suited? I have a full rake of MK1's in BR Maroon and "Cream and Chocolate" liveries. Would MK1's in the blue livery be ideal? Or Hawksworths in maroon?
It's been a while since I last bought coaches so it would be great to see what is out there in my era.
Bit of a mine field, but I'm hoping to go on a bit of a trading mission this weekend!
Thanks all for your inputs!
Bear in mind steam had gone from the WR by 1965, from the SR by 1966 and lasted until 1968 in the NW.
For parcels stock virtually anything goes.
For passenger stock, BR Blue started to be introduced in 1965 so blue/grey MKs started to supersede maroon, although maroons lasted some time after the demise of steam.
Choc/cream were only used on the WR after the 1950s in early 60s on certain named expresses if I recall correctly.
If you allow cross country trains you might even find some green MK1 stock mixed into trains.
Others may have more knowledge
The 1960s were a period of transition and 1968 would look very different to 1960... Throughout that range a mix of types and liveries is appropriate, but the mix changed as the decade progressed.
Coach types in 1960, would be no more than 1 third BR Mk1s with the rest being pre-nationalisation types of the relevant region. (older stock mainly stayed on its original region though there were exceptions - your Hawksworths are strictly western region)
By 1968, at least 3 quarters BR mk1s, with a few remaining pre-nationalisation types and possibly even a set of BR mk2s built from 1964 onwards.
With regard to livery, Maroon was introduced in 1956, (with the Western Region painting a few fixed sets Chocolate and Cream for specific services, and the Southern Region using Green), but not everything was painted overnight, and some remained in Crimson & Cream when Blue was first introduced in 1965.
So, in 1960 around 2 thirds Crimson & Cream, 1 third Maroon (with an odd set in Choc&Cream if WR or Green if SR) shifting by 1968 to mostly Maroon with odd individual coaches in Crimson/Cream, and maybe one set in blue.
Agree with what's been said so far. But if you are being specific about a particular area it would be helpful for us to know more detail. If you are talking about the 'very end of steam' era then you can basically get away with all maroon or blue grey stock. In the last few years of steam in the north of England there were plenty of trains steam hauled with all maroon Mk1s or maroon plus a few blue/grey. However, at the very end of steam a lot of steam was only on freight not passenger.
Quote from: PLD on January 02, 2025, 10:51:12 PMSo, in 1960 around 2 thirds Crimson & Cream, 1 third Maroon (with an odd set in Choc&Cream if WR or Green if SR) shifting by 1968 to mostly Maroon with odd individual coaches in Crimson/Cream, and maybe one set in blue.
Crimson and Cream started being phased out from 1956, there were no repaints after that date. It is unlikely any survived as late as 1968 in regular main line service, certainly never saw any on my spotting trips around that time. 1965 would probably be the latest, and only a handful by then.
maybe sell some crimson and cream coaches, as few would be left in that colour scheme, and buy a few blue/grey mk1s to mix in with your maroon mk1s and maybe some maroon hawksworth or collets? the farish hawksworth's look rather nice.
coaches are so expensive now so i would look for good condition second hand ones!
tim
Hawksworths and Colletts were pretty much limited to the Western Region, as Gresleys and Thompsons were to the Eastern. Cross country or even just inter regional trains could contain a mixture though, dependent on how late in the 60s the OP is modelling
Thank you all for the brilliant replies, it's really eye opening.
I'll look at some blue / grey mk1 and hawksworths.
Not modelling any specific date or year, just the 60's in general, so ability to run various types. Thank you everyone!
Photo I found Rail Portfolio
1, editor M. Bennett, 1984
D318. Wednesbury
Diverted Birmingham Snow Hill Liverpool Lime Street/ Manchester
24.4 66
Photo M. Mensing
Clearly BR maroon
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/148/3894-030125184621.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=148226)
This one shows Blue / Grey plus a maroon coach visible behind the signal box.
Hellifield
D339. 4 August 1968
Edinburgh Birmingham diverted
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/148/3894-030125184840.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=148227)
Be interesting if anyone else finds useful photos
Concerning the phasing out of regional coaches - I remember travelling on a Bristol to Birmingham train in the 1970s which still included a Gresley wooden-bodied restaurant car, painted in blue/grey.
Some Stanier coaches were Blue/Grey on the WCML from memory.
Martin
More remote or less used branch lines would often still be using old stock in old livery.
@NOE 544R -- the key take-home message, I think, is by the mid 60s, you'd almost entirely be looking at a mix of maroon and blue-grey Mk 1 coaches. You will find countless photos of such trains online and in (colour) books.
While Southern Region green Mk 1s also persisted for a while, Mk 1s in Western Region chocolate-and-cream disappeared very quickly. If you were buying, say, six Mk 1 coaches for your layout, buying three blue-grey coaches, two or three in maroon, and perhaps a singleton green coach sounds about right. Adding anything else to the mix requires justification, which is the enemy of authenticity!
Bear in mind that the 'Big 4' coaching stock was not necessarily compatible with Mk 1 coaches, so wouldn't normally be mixed in. The later SR and LNER coaches used the same pullman-style connector that the Mk 1 coaches had, so were easily slotted into rakes. Hence, the widespread persistence of things like Gresley restaurant cars in BR service. Such vehicles might be used far outside their 'home' territory, with ex-LNER coaches being used on the WR, for example, and Bulleid stock apparently finding its way up to Scotland!
LMS and GWR coaching stock required an adapter to couple up with Mk 1 coaches, so BR tended to avoiding mixing them into Mk 1 rakes where possible. It was done occasionally, e.g., on a summer service that needed strengthening at short notice.
Cheers, NeMo
The actual last pre-nationalisation coach to carry passengers in BR Service was 1936-built Observation Saloon Sc1998 "LOCHEIL" which had been withdrawn from passenger service in the '50s and used for many years by the District Engineers as DE900580, but returned to passenger use on the West Highland line for the 1983 season!
Other than that, the last pre-nationalisation BUILT loco-hauled coach in regular passenger service is generally accepted as a Gresley Buffet withdrawn either 1973 or 74 depending which reference you believe. The last pre-nationalisation DESIGNED (but built after 1948 by BR) types were 2x Scottish region Thompson Buffets SC1705E/SC1706E withdrawn 1979, just beating 2 sets of LMS-type Sleepers withdrawn 1977 (which included the last 12-wheel stock).
Other pre-nationalisation types that are known to have carried Blue & Grey included:
LMS Stanier significant number, mostly post '48 built all-steel Porthole variants including at least Brake 3rds, Brake 1sts and a few Corridor composites, plus a couple of kitchen cars and matching open 1sts used as diners. Most withdrawn 1970/71.
LNER Thompson a few corridor coaches and Sleepers, plus 1-off Gresley Sleeper E1211E lasted to 1972.
GWR Hawksworths - a few odd coaches only (mostly corridor seconds), all had gone by 1970.
SR - none...
(Ingoring some SR EMUs and the 1930s LMS Merseyside EMUs which lasted in to the 1980s)
All of those were outlasted by various NPCS in Parcels/Mail service. Examples of Thompson, Stanier and Hawksworth full brakes all lasted in to the mid 1980s.
Just a point of interest following the above. Farish haven't yet introduced maroon-ended Mark 1s (apart from suburbans). This feature came about when spray-painting was introduced prior to the blue/grey scheme.
Thank you everyone for the brilliant responses, I certainly now have a lot to work with :D
:thankyousign:
Hello folks!
I have just checked the Rails website and found that Graham Farish do produce maroon Mk.1 coaches with maroon ends... however, these are models of WCRC-owned vehicles. I also noted that the current maroon Mk.1 suburbans have black ends...
Quote from: Cols on January 16, 2025, 03:55:17 PMHello folks!
I have just checked the Rails website and found that Graham Farish do produce maroon Mk.1 coaches with maroon ends... however, these are models of WCRC-owned vehicles. I also noted that the current maroon Mk.1 suburbans have black ends...
The ends of these coaches got very dirty in use. A bit of weathering and no one will know what colour the ends are supposed to be.
WCRC are modern day renditions of maroon. Not 1960s at all.
Best to get maroon ones from EBay
That's a very good point, Bob G., I have not compared the maroon of BR in the 1960's with the WCRC maroon, though the WCRC colour does seem to be ever so slightly different... a tad redder perhaps..?
A few more bits of information.
From photos crimson and cream coaches became very rare after around 1959/60. The Western Region chocolate and cream rakes of coaches were ordered to be split up around 1962. From then on they were mixed in with maroon coaches and odd chocolate and cream coache was seen in rakes right up until 1967/8ish. Coaches seem to have been repainted into blue/grey quite quickly. By 1968 there were quite a few all blue/grey rakes but there were also a lot of rakes with maroon coaches mixed in. Britannias and Jubilees were seen hauling rakes of blue/grey coaches over the Settle & Carlisle line during their last summer of working this line. Most of the trains would have bene diesel hauled by this time.
There were significant inter regional north east - south west working right from the early days of British Railways; in fact there were some pre-nationalisation. I have read in one book that most of the coaching stock held in the sidings at Paignton overnight was from the north east - that would have be ex-LNER coaches at that time together with some ex-LMS as well. During the early 1960s these north east-south west rakes would increasingly have been mk1 coaches. These trains would have been hauled by ex-GWR locos (or by 1961/2 diesel hydraulics) as far as Bristol where an ex-LMS loco would have been put on the front. At one time ex-LNER B1s were used on these trains as far south as Bristol. By around 1963/4 these services were mostly hauled by 45/46 diesels north from Bristol.