Well, what a palaver! The new model arrived as a nice surprise (although I wasn't expecting to pay postage). Off it went onto the layout but it didn't get very far at all.
There was a tight spot which meant a jerk on every rotation of the driving wheels and then it halted when it encountered the first point - with the driving wheels rotating uselessly. The front and rear trucks had conspired to lift them clear of the track! Now this point is a new Peco medium radius unifrog so I was a bit taken aback. Poor runner I decided (corroborated
by members of my N Gauge Society area group as they saw it running too) - time to contact the retailer.
The customary video was requested and duly dispatched and a postage return label was received so off it went. If what happened next is a reflection of the accepted quality standard then I'm afraid, I'm out.....
After receiving a reminder to send the video - it was sent again. Next a message arrived asking what the observed fault was as none could be found. The video hadn't been seen so I sent it again. Still no fault found so what to do? Well, I was advised that as a kind gesture, I would receive a replacement (well, I have spent a bob or two at this retailer). What I received was another request to get in touch as the matter needed to be resolved. Hmmm. A reply outlining the previously offered outcome was met by a response that a replacement could not be issued when there isn't a fault found. OK, kindly give me a refund and we can call it a day (oh, and the request for the video - it can be found in the message trail).
I next received a call apologising as there had been a communication problem at the retailer but a replacement would be sent immediately. As promised, it promptly arrived so out it went onto the track. It has a tested sticker on the wrapper so I was expecting good things. Er, no!
This 51XX ran over the point the previous one (if it was a previous one) didn't but it was still a bit jerky as there seems to be a tight spot on every rotation of the driving wheels still. Maybe that will disappear with running so rather prematurely, I sent a message to the retailer confirming receipt.
After a decent run in, I attached six MK1s that other locos have no problem pulling. However, this loco struggled to pull the leading coach over the frog of the first point it encountered but having done so and despite some wheel slip, the rest of the train ran through. This slipping was repeated at every point in the circuit.
I have an upper deck that is reached by a 2.5% incline. The loco stalled as soon as it hit the bottom of the incline (it did climb it when running light). I pushed it past the transition from level but it didn't gain any traction. It eventually managed to haul just two coaches with some wheel slipping (it also rocked from side to side under load while doing so).
I am underwhelmed by the performance of this model. Despite its handsome appearance, it has a flaw - over-springing of the lead and trailing trucks (which was reported recently in N Gauge News) and is not a very smooth runner. That it cost in excess of £130 (including postage) and has been effectively certified by the retailer as being fit for purpose is disappointing. Trouble is, it arrived more or less at the same time as did the Revolution class 59. Chalk and cheese!
That's a shame.
"customary video"? A good idea to have evidence available but the first time I've ever heard of a shop asking for one as part of a return. Can we see it on here, just for interest?
I wonder if the first one had a droopy coupling or brake rigging causing it to catch on points?
Lumpy running is disappointing of course, if it doesn't sort itself out after running in. Usually either a wheel quartering issue or part of the rods/linkage is bent and catching.
Here's a link to the video posted on YouTube....
https://youtube.com/shorts/bHw91DlPY90
There's been a lot said about this on another thread.
Check out this:
Quote from: Snowwolflair on June 26, 2024, 03:00:54 PMBob Tidbury found that the rear pony of his model which is forced down by a spring was lifting the rear driving wheels. My models did not have the problem but fixing it made a vast difference in the pulling power of his loco.
He clipped a few coils off the spring.
Worth checking if you are getting poor traction.
If you had put "Sonic Prairie" in the search box you could have found this and saved yourself a lot of typing!
Dave
If I've read the tables correctly, then 2.5% grade is 1:40.
If so, that's a heck of a grade on the real railway in UK practice. Shap was regarded as steep at 1:75...If your other locos cope, then they're probably doing better than the real thing.
I'd go back to Rails and if no joy, contact Sonic via the email address on the instructions. The two I've been using do run really well.
The adjustment of springs seems to have worked for some, but the two at home take eight on the flat and six or seven up 1:100 with 15" curves.
Martyn
Hmmm... yes that is very bad running in that video, beyond a simple case of needing running in.
The slippage looks to be where you have a noticeable change in gradient at the rail joint after the point, so the driving wheels are losing grip because they're lifted off the track by the front and rear pony wheels. Granted there have been comments about the springing on those wheels but I suspect you could do with easing the transition across that joint.
Since clipping 3 coils of the spring of the rear pony truck my Sonic Prairie now pulls 10 Peco 4 wheeled tanks with a buffer van and a toad brake van ,
One member on here said he removed both springs and his loco still ran through his point work .I might try that to increase the hauling power of my loco but its rather hot in the shed at the moment .If it does improve it I will keep the springs in a plastic bag in the box just in case .By the way the pony trucks just clip in and have tiny pickup wires so its an easy job to remove the springs but they are tiny so dont loose them .
Looking at that video I think the problem is caused by the springs lifting all the drive wheels of the track so relying on the pickups on the pony wheels .
I am sure Sonic will sort it out ,Sam is a very nice man I met him at TINGS and we had a nice chat .
The first thing I would say is that my Prairie runs a lot quieter that that one, it could be the surface it is running on, but noticeable.
Secondly, my loco runs very smoothly and has none of the "sticking" of the wheels when rotating and that looks like more than a running in issue to me, I would be sending it back as it isn't fit for purpose.
I think I am correct in saying that as it was bought online, under distance selling regulations you are entitled to return it for a refund within a certain period - "right to cancel" - this is a legal right and you do not need a reason to cancel but will likely have to pay for return postage.
https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses
As regards it losing traction on that point in the video, I would agree that looks more about tracklaying than any fault with the loco, but shortening or removing the pony truck springs might still help.
Lastly, while you could approach Sonic and it isn't for me to say "don't" at all, your contract is with Rails and if the model, it's replacement or as many replacements as it takes to get a good one is not fit for purpose is down to them. Subject to a few constraints if not fit for purpose they are obliged to repair or replace it under the Consumer Rights Act.
Roy
My Prairie is a little bit of a sticky runner, nothing like this one is showing. It has improved with running in. It's starting is weak but again improving. Maybe some more running in will help, if not then I am hoping that DCC will help, the chip is waiting to be fitted.
Quote from: Kris on July 20, 2024, 10:29:54 AMMy Prairie is a little bit of a sticky runner, ... I am hoping that DCC will help, the chip is waiting to be fitted.
Never expect DCC to sort out running problems. You need the mechanism to be running smoothly before you fit DCC.
At most the decoder's built-in PWM and feedback might improve things a little but really it's just masking the problem so if the loco isn't right it should be returned, replaced, serviced or whatever is appropriate.
You should have immediately quoted UK legislation - assuming a distance sale, you have the right to return for any reason within a set amount of time - no need to supply any reason, never mind videos and any other nonsense.
Cheers,
Alan
I could return the loco but I want a 51XX of my choice, not a refund. This is not the first time that I have received a 'tested' loco that has a running issue.
I was aware of the other thread referred to earlier but hadn't read enough of it to realise that the pre-production discussion had continued post production. Now that I have read through it all and have watched a video of a 51XX creeping along in a way that mine cannot, I'm irritated even more about how I have been fobbed off.
After several hours of continuous running, pulling a rake of a half dozen Mk1 coaches, the behaviour of my 51XX hasn't changed - it still has a slight limp and the driving wheels slip on every point frog. Time to give the pony truck spring shortening a go me thinks.
That's disappointing to hear. Mine also had a slight tight spot so it was returned to Rails on the 26th June. After being asked to send a video, which I did, I'm still waiting to receive my replacement. Hoping it runs ok.
An update on mine. The replacement loco from Rails arrived today (Sunday!). Annoyingly, Rails have just sent the very same loco back to me - I know this because I put a tiny amount of superglue onto one of the boiler supports which had come adrift in the box on original delivery. Its the same loco, with the same tight spot and Rails have done nothing at all to address the issue or replace the loco other than to waste my time. :veryangry:
My Sonic box has no address to return the item, just an e-mail address and you hope that they will contact you. Therefore, it just leaves you to return to the retailer and I believe that the retailer's responsibility is time limited (less than the warranty) under the distance trading legislation. So maybe the best option is to keep returning to Rails until you are satisfied, (or the time limit expires), or as suggested , ask for full refund.
I received 3 of these yesterday - please see my comments here: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=59443.150
Regards,
Alex
As a recent newcomer to model railways and specifically n gauge, I bought a Sonic prairie from Rails to compliment a Dapol 57xx pannier. The prairie runs very well on kato track but had an issue on one turnout, constantly derailing. I modified the turnout and it now runs through ok. The pannier on the other hand stuttered and hesitated continually despite running in. I spoke to Rails and they advised me to return it so they could check it out. I received a tested replacement within a week which runs properly. I know this post doesn't resolve any of the issues others have had, but so far, my limited experience of Rails' service has been a positive one.
Drifting off topic, welcome to the forum, John.
How about a post in the 'Introduction' section to tell us what you're up to in N?
Yep, G'day from Australia, mate, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
Was it a Kato #4 point?
Thank you for the welcome, Newportnobby and Bealman. Apologies to everyone for interrupting this thread I've not interacted with forums before. In answer to your question, yes it was a Kato 4# point.
Quote from: Smokebox Door on July 20, 2024, 07:47:47 PMI could return the loco but I want a 51XX of my choice, not a refund. This is not the first time that I have received a 'tested' loco that has a running issue.
I was aware of the other thread referred to earlier but hadn't read enough of it to realise that the pre-production discussion had continued post production. Now that I have read through it all and have watched a video of a 51XX creeping along in a way that mine cannot, I'm irritated even more about how I have been fobbed off.
After several hours of continuous running, pulling a rake of a half dozen Mk1 coaches, the behaviour of my 51XX hasn't changed - it still has a slight limp and the driving wheels slip on every point frog. Time to give the pony truck spring shortening a go me thinks.
I had similar problems with the same seller on Sonic's first loco; I don't believe the 'tested' sticker means what it says; probably only run up and down a straight piece of track. I rejected a third loco as the livery I wanted was not available, and chose a Dapol Schools. I tried two of those, both were awful. I then tried a GF WD; it ran fine for about 4 weeks then stopped. It went back for a refund, but I was offered a 'tested' replacement after the seller agreed it had failed which I reluctantly accepted. The replacement WD has, so far, run well. This experience has put me off purchasing unless I can a) purchase at a show, and b) test it before leaving the show. Not all sellers offer a test track, even a straight one. I will often ask an exhibitor if they will help me, or better still if the NGS stand is there get it tested there. It is about time manufacturers concentrated more on the mechanisms rather than putting so much detail on the loco which cannot be seen at more than arms length by most of us oldies. Just my feelings. cheers :beers:
Everyone has their own view, but personally I don't think there should have to to be a trade-off between detail and performance. I absolutely love the level of detail on N Gauge models these days and would never want to go back to the days of Poole Graham Farish with all detail moulded on.
I haven't had many problems with recent locos running wise, from memory just a sound fitted Rapido Class 28 where the sound chip blew (turned out to be a fault with some of the Loksound chips so not the loco's fault) plus it would have to be said my two Sonic J50s which run OK in a straight line but have developed an issue where they "stutter" when they hit a curve. I haven't identified the problem yet, but as most people don't seem to have had an issue it is unlikely to be anything inherent in the chassis design.
All my recent Farish locos run superbly, both steam and diesel, not a single issue (touch wood).
Roy
I have to agree with Roy regarding the performance of modern N locos. We've gone through most of them when exhibiting James Street, and while there have been a few rogues that have had to be replaced, in the main they've all proved reliable runners and haulers. The world does seem to have got into a moaning mentality since social media came along, and small issues can get magnified when one person gets a dodgy model and splashes videos or posts all over the net, often massively inflating the apparent scale of the problem. If it's new and defective, send it back for replacement, which has always been the case even since the early days of UK N.
In terms of secondhand locos, I won't buy unless I can see it tested, or more preferably, test it myself. I've had a few good bargains from eBay and the like, but I much prefer buying at a show where I can test it on the layout. We are always open to test locos for people on James Street, so never be afraid to ask! I'm sure many other exhibitors are the same.
Dave
I can confirm that. After buying a loco from
@Newportnobby in York last year (not that I div'nt trust you, Mick), I was graciously allowed to run it on JS. :thumbsup:
I bought a GWR railcar sight unseen from
@dannyboy of this parish, and it's great! I trust the classifieds on here, my rationale being we're not likely to rip each other off.
Quote from: Firstone18 on July 29, 2024, 10:14:51 PMIt is about time manufacturers concentrated more on the mechanisms rather than putting so much detail on the loco which cannot be seen at more than arms length by most of us oldies. Just my feelings.
I don't believe there is, or has to be, a trade off between such things. There's no reason why models can't be engineered and manufactured to have high fidelity and detail, and great performance and operation. I'm sure manufacturers try to achieve both rather than concentrating on one to the detriment of the other.
At the risk of being told that I'm a bit late joining this discussion, I'm going to chuck my hat in the ring!
I have two of the Sonic Large Prairies, but have had traction problems with both.
On receiving the first one from Rails (4141), I read, and followed exactly, the instruction sheet - and ran the loco, non-stop, for (over) an hour in each direction at a medium speed: it was almost silent, and very smooth right from the start. I was delighted. After the two hour's running in, I placed a Dapol B-set behind it... and it slipped badly - even on straight track. I then ran it bunker-first which improved matters, but it still slipped on a fairly gentle curve. So, more out of curiosity than any technical insight, I ran it (light) for another 30 minutes in each direction. I don't know what that extra hour did, but it will now confidently haul 4 or 5 Hawksworth coaches - with no slipping. Maybe all that running-in has compressed the springing of the pony trucks...
So, I bought another one (4156) a couple of weeks ago...To start with, both front smokebox to front footplate struts had come adrift in the box (I gather that this is a common problem...). Having fixed this issue (not easy when partially blind...), the loco was run-in in the same way as the previous model. It ran beautifully - until, after running-in, two coaches were put behind it. The loco absolutely refused to move - it just slipped, and slipped, and - well, you get the picture... So, out of sheer exasperation, I decided to remove the spring from the front pony truck. I did initially clip it, but then decided to get rid of it altogether. 4156 now hauls what I want and at the speeds that I want. One of my fellow NGS Area Group members has postulated that it may be a good idea to remove both pony-truck springs altogether.
This experience with springing, makes me wonder how well the forthcoming Dapol WC/BB Pacific locos (for which I've waited for 13? years!!), and their GWR Mogul and revised Manor, will behave with their compensated centre driving wheels - it sounds like a great idea - but the proof of the pudding...
In short, I'm very pleased with my models of 4141 and 4156. Though I rather doubt that I should have experienced these Quality Control/technical issues, which may well put some people off from considering purchases of future Sonic products.
Now to go - and pray for an ROD 2-8-0 in GCR/LNER/GWR guise, and the hitherto overlooked BR Standard 4MT 4-6-0, and a Southern S15 4-6-0... and a re-run of the Bachmann-Farish 64xx and the 4MT 2-6-4T, and the SR C Class 0-6-0. Oh, and will Bachmann-Farish seriously consider putting a close coupling mechanism on their Mk.1 non-gangwayed passenger coaches..?
Quote from: Cols on October 22, 2024, 11:41:23 AMNow to go - and pray for an ROD 2-8-0 in GCR/LNER/GWR guise, and the hitherto overlooked BR Standard 4MT 4-6-0, and a Southern S15 4-6-0... and a re-run of the Bachmann-Farish 64xx and the 4MT 2-6-4T, and the SR C Class 0-6-0. Oh, and will Bachmann-Farish seriously consider putting a close coupling mechanism on their Mk.1 non-gangwayed passenger coaches..?
Strewth! You don't want much, do you? :D ;)
Newport Nobby is absolutely right - I don't want much! Just more good quality locos of what an old friend of mine once described as "run of the mill, every-day locos": not just the big like A3s or Princess Coronations - or even big 4-6-0s like Kings, or Royal Scots. That's why I'm hoping for such every-day locos such as an S15 or a 42/52XX.
So, when Sonic announced their Large Prairies, I was delighted - and, aside from the initial problems caused by the over-enthusiastic pony-truck springing, I am delighted with my pair. There was the problem of the smokebox to front footplate struts becoming detached/lost; one of my fellow Area Group members replaced the missing/detached items, and I've super-glued them. I'm not fitting DCC chips to the models as I'm a DC modeller, so I will have no need to access the interior "gubbins".
By the way, my pair of Dapol 45XX/4575 small prairie tanks continue to to give exemplary service - and, yes I know they've got solid backed wheels, but this "fault" is not really noticeable when these locos are on the track, whether stationary or in motion.
Quote from: Cols on November 26, 2024, 01:15:45 PMNewport Nobby is absolutely right - I don't want much! Just more good quality locos of what an old friend of mine once described as "run of the mill, every-day locos": not just the big like A3s or Princess Coronations - or even big 4-6-0s like Kings, or Royal Scots. That's why I'm hoping for such every-day locos such as an S15 or a 42/52XX.
I do sometimes think the bigger locos are aimed at the younger modeller who is maybe not aware of the mundane or everyday classes many of us who remember them hanker after.
Quote from: Cols on November 26, 2024, 01:15:45 PMBy the way, my pair of Dapol 45XX/4575 small prairie tanks continue to to give exemplary service - and, yes I know they've got solid backed wheels, but this "fault" is not really noticeable when these locos are on the track, whether stationary or in motion.
My old (first run) Dapol 45xx is a smooth enough runner but does take off like a scalded cat regardless of controller type. I just feel it looks a bit 'concertinaed'
Having read Newport Nobby's reply to my latest ramblings, I thoroughly agree that the main manufacturers seem to concentrate on the junior market by reproducing the Biggest, Fastest, Poshest, and Most Spectacular locos.
My layout, when complete(!) will represent a fictional resort town on the North Cornish coast during 1959-63, it is (supposedly) served by a branch line from Barnstaple (Western Region) and a branch which leaves the North Cornwall Line (Southern Region) a few miles west of Launceston. So my "largest loco" requirements are Bulleid Light Pacifics (unrebuilt) and "Halls" and "Manors" - Class N locos, 2P tanks, and T9s, form the "backbone" of my Southern workings; 2251s, Large and Small Prairie tanks, and pannier tanks are the "backbone" of the Western's workings. So you see, anything Western or Southern up to Class 5 in BR power terms is all I need - I also have a "Hymek" and a North British Type 2 diesel-hydraulic (I refuse to use the TOPS Class 22 code!). So, by now, the more perceptive among you will have realised that I am a fussy old fart who only wants to run the appropriate locos for secondary main lines West of Taunton and West of Exeter Central: no "Kings", "Merchant Navies", "Castles", "King Arthurs", "Counties", or "Schools"!
So far, Dapol and GF/Bachmann have largely met my loco needs, but I am utterly baffled/frustrated by Dapol's seemingly irrational decision to issue their High-Window Maunsell stock only in the pre-war SR lined olive green livery, what about the 20+ years they spent in Crimson/Cream and BR(S) green??? And, why have GF/Bachmann chosen to neglect the BR(S) Green in their latest releases of the Bulleid coaches?
Speaking of the Bulleid coaches from GF/Bachmann, I'm sure that I'm not the only N-Gauge modeller who wishes that they had produced the Diagram 2406 BCK (a loose vehicle for through branch-line workings) and, perhaps, the Diagram 2405 BCK (for the 2-car sets Nos. 63 - 75). In the case of the 2-car sets, GF/Bachmann could have sold them as a pair as the BTK/BSK is already produced by them...
Now, what about some decent R-T-R Collett "pre-Sunshine" stock? But, I think I'd better stop here, as I'm well off the original topic - however, I do feel better for getting this off my chest!!
Perhaps there ought to be a thread on much wanted R-T-R Carriage Stock - and, even NPCCS..?
Like
@Cols I wanted some Maunsell high windows in BR livery so bought a four car set in SR green from Rails for £69.95 if memory serves me correctly. That's a bargain by any standards in my book. The coaches came apart really easily and I have just completed spraying them into BR green. The only slight error is forgetting to order numbers for them when I ordered some from Railtec a month or so ago. Ho hum.
I model a few years either side of 1960 so most of the stuff I need is now available RTR, bar suburban EMUs which I've got round by using 4CEPs and Worsley Works sides. I wanted some Maunsell Nondescript coaches as these were often seen in boat trains, so another couple of Dapol Maunsell have been converted using more WW sides. As far as NPCS goes I'm not sure that there are many widely used items that can't be found now in RTR or kit form, but am sure there are some less common ones not available yet.
It's so much better now than ten or twenty years ago.......!
Dave
Like Southern Gooner, I am also resorting to respraying Maunsell High Window 1934 stock with BR(S) Green. In My case, I need a Maunsell 2P set (Set 29), formed (by BR in 1949) with a six compartment (high window) BTK/BSK and a six compartment low window BCK - both coaches are from Dapol. As I don't like the Dapol interpretation of BR(S) Green - much too light - it's rather anaemic in my opinion, and it most certainly doesn't match the Precision BR(S) Stock Green enamel I'll be using- so both vehicles have had to be dismantled and then resprayed. Only got as far as the dismantling so far...
Can any Southern Region experts suggest any potential numbers and set numbers for the high-window Maunsells in BR days, please?
Just out of curiosity, obviously... ;)
Contact cols by PM......he's a mine of information.
Martyn
Could we take the coaching topic to a new thread, please?
it's getting way off topic now :)
Martyn
You're absolutely right, Martyn - We've drifted too far away from the Sonic Large Prairie thread. It's probably my fault...