N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 08:25:49 AM

Title: Where does the insulating joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 08:25:49 AM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/medium_10428-170724082357.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=143419)


Can some one please quickly as possible tell me where the insulating joiners would go for this?  i know its basic but im not sure.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: chrism on July 17, 2024, 08:38:51 AM
On both rails where the crossover points meet.

If you also have power feeds further along on each of the straight tracks beyond the points, then you might need IRJs on the inner rails of the straight-on paths out of the points.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 08:44:36 AM
Like this ?  (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/medium_10428-170724084403.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=143422)


The red lines are the insulated joiners. Yes there are feeders on the straight parts before the actual turnout.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Steven B on July 17, 2024, 08:58:07 AM
Hard to say where they should go without seeing the rest of the layout/track-plan.

The four you've shown in red above will work but only if there's another feed to the right of the top track and to the left of the bottom track. This could be another feed from the controller or just a complete loop of track.

As a rule of thumb you need insulating joiners to prevent power being fed from the two track end of the turnout/points on the middle two rails which meet at the frog. Where they go isn't important - they can be on the actual point or further along the track several feet/meters away.

Steven B
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Newportnobby on July 17, 2024, 09:00:20 AM
I was tempted to amend the Thread title but think it's more fun as it stands.
Let any Mod know if you do want it changing, though
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 09:02:52 AM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/medium_10428-170724090207.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=143424)


does this help understand track plans?
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 09:04:00 AM
lol just realized the title... my bad...
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Bealman on July 17, 2024, 09:48:16 AM
Don't worry about it too much.

My question is, are those two parallel tracks on different controllers?

We really need the full plan.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 09:58:33 AM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/medium_10428-170724095736.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=143429)


This is the track rough track plan just to show u where al my turn outs are. I am worrying at moment because glues drying and i need to know.



I dont know if they are on different controllers or what that means. Im using one NCE controller.

So based on that track plan, am i correct with the other photo where i show where i put the IRJ, is that the correct placement.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: njee20 on July 17, 2024, 10:17:20 AM
Yes, the two rails leading to the frog on each point, so the middle 4 joiners of the crossover need to be insulating ones.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: ntpntpntp on July 17, 2024, 10:41:34 AM
Yes, the safest way is to isolate all 4 frog V rails in this situation.

On a crossover the rails always need to have IRJs. 

The straight route V rails need IRJs if there is a power feed further along the rail. You can get away without them if the track beyond the frog is a simple dead-end siding with no power feed. 

If the point is part of an oval the power can come round the other way so you need an IRJ.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/5885-170724103738.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=143430)
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 10:56:38 AM
Godbless you all. Thank you.


LAST QUESTION. I did the hole in the wrong spot for the wire that goes from the bottom of turnout frog through baseboard. So i instead cut some of the track bed out so the wire/solder is embeded in to the foam trackbed making contact with that and the wood underneath, and then the rest of the wire goes through the hole which is a bit far off. So my question is is that ok, because i cant get a drill easily at moment,,
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Bealman on July 17, 2024, 11:13:50 AM
As long as there is good electrical contact, and the track is level, it should be fine.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 11:18:25 AM
Yes the track is level, that's why i had to cut some of it out, i guess it's a stupid question because my other feeders are all touching the foam and wood some what, but this one missed the hole by a long shot so dont why i think it would be different.

I suppose alot of people do actually have feeders going off to the side rather then straight down through the hole?.
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Newportnobby on July 17, 2024, 11:25:51 AM
Quote from: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 11:18:25 AMI suppose alot of people do actually have feeders going off to the side rather then straight down through the hole?.

I'd recommend feeds being soldered to the sides of rails rather than the base as they're easier to replace should something come adrift
Title: Re: Where does the insulating joiners go for this setup
Post by: ntpntpntp on July 17, 2024, 11:32:37 AM
My feed wires are soldered to the side rather than underneath because I prefer to get all the track laid first and then wire up.  With Peco code 55 rail the wire is soldered to the lower part of the rail and is later hidden by the ballast.

With things like points which come with a bare wire frog dropper pre-fitted, those come down through a hole directly underneath.  You don't have to, but I prefer to fit heatshrink over the bare wire to keep it tidy, to protect the wire, and to colour code it as a frog dropper :)
Title: Re: Where does the insulting joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 17, 2024, 11:54:02 AM
Opps i meant frog wire not feeders. Sorry.
Title: Re: Where does the insulating joiners go for this setup
Post by: Grassyfield on July 19, 2024, 05:39:16 PM
Here is a rough look at the overall lay out with the yellow and red lines being the feeders. So based off this am i right where i said i should put the IRJ. Thank you very much.


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/medium_10428-190724173758.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=143486)
Title: Re: Where does the insulating joiners go for this setup
Post by: ntpntpntp on July 19, 2024, 10:54:42 PM
I'd say that's more feeders than you actually need, but if you're happier with them being there then that's fine.

As for the IRJs, you have so many feeders you might as well just fit IRJs to all the frog V rails and avoid any possible problems :)

QuoteI dont know if they are on different controllers or what that means. Im using one NCE controller.

@Bealman was probably thinking your layout is DC controlled - in which case you have a different controller for each separate oval of track so that you can run trains independently. Where you have crossovers from one controller to another it's important to have IRJs regardless of what type of point (Insulfrog, Electrofrog, Unifrog) because there are electrically separate circuits.

However your layout is DCC controlled with an NCE PowerCab. All your track is wired to the same power and is all one electrical circuit.  In this case the IRJs are needed on Electrofrog point V rails to prevent power back-feeding into the frog and causing a short circuit.

This diagram shows why Electrofrog points need IRJs after the frog in any situation where there is a power feed to the rail beyond the frog

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/86/medium_5885-280120191239.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=86727)