Hi all - a question to the camera experts on here.
I'd like to get some better pics of my layout and weathering projects as I've been disappointed with the ones taken on my phone. I've tried some of the image stacking software which has made an improvement but I'm thinking a better camera might be the solution, used in conjunction with the image stacking. The pics of my layout taken by Chris Nevard (Model Rail) and Mike Wild (Hornby) recently are fantastic, and they used DSLR type cameras.
So, which camera would people recommend for taking up close pics of very small objects? I have zero experience in this field so any advice would be great.
Our forum expert is Roger of Wrenton fame.
A camera with a smaller sensor will get you bigger depth of field than one with a larger sensor. I use Micro Four Thirds: some of those cameras have built-in focus stacking. Some of the cameras with built-in focus stacking are now available relatively cheaply secondhand: look for the Olympus OM-D EM-1 mark 2,for instance. Make sure to get a compatible lens. For model railways, even in N gauge, you will not need a dedicated macro lens: an ordinary lens with a good close focusing capability will suffice. Also consider the use of off-camera flash.
Look for a 'mirrorless' camera, all the major brands have switched to mirrorless.
A very useful feature of these cameras is focus peaking, which helps with manual focusing. The area that is in focus will be lined with a specific colour so it is very easy to place the focus exactly where you want.
A specific macro lens is very useful for the smallest details. The cheapest options often don'n have a strong telephoto view but are very useful for railway photos.
Like Jamespetts I also have a micro four thirds camera and the Olympus 30mm macro or the Panasonic 30mm macro are ideal for what you want.
Other systems have similar lenses.
My Panasonic can even do focus stacking in camera and produces an 8 MP photo ad a result.
You don't need the most expensive top of the line camera, I have a simple Lumix gx800 which can do everything I need
Thanks both for that. As I said, I have zero experience in this field and having done a bit of research on "micro four thirds" and "Panasonic 30mm macros" I'm still none the wiser really.
It all seems a massive minefield :confused1:
I'll try to explain it a bit more tonight, I'm about to leave for a visit to the dentist.
Jan
Depth of field has nothing to do with the sensor size or whether the camera is mirrorless or not.
The smaller the aperture (larger f number) the greater the depth of field. For a given ISO number, the smaller the aperture the longer the exposure required.
Ideally you would be looking for a camera lense combination capable of being set at f16 and the camera setting the shutter speed. I only use Canon DSLRs and this is achievible in what Canon call the creative zone where you control one of the camera settings.
You may find you will need a long exposure time and to avoid camera shake a good tripod and remote shutter release.
I suggest you visit a good camera shop, explain what you want to achieve and be guided by them.
Geoff
Hi Rob
I recently bought a toughened outdoor compact camera, an Olympus TG-6.
Like most cameras it has a 'macro' mode for extreme close-ups, but I discovered that within macro mode it offers focus-stacking, ie it takes up to 10 snaps in rapid succession, focussing at various ranges within the scene, then merges them into a single photo. This happens in under 10 seconds with no intervention required.
Some chat and examples here. (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=28271.msg811581#msg811581)
In this photo foreground is 3" from the camera and the tunnel portal ~3'.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/2947-310823165033.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/2947-310823165033.jpeg)
Mike
Those photos are brilliant!
Jan
Quote from: JanW on January 27, 2024, 07:58:27 AMLook for a 'mirrorless' camera, all the major brands have switched to mirrorless.
A very useful feature of these cameras is focus peaking, which helps with manual focusing. The area that is in focus will be lined with a specific colour so it is very easy to place the focus exactly where you want.
My Canon DSLR does that when in "live view shooting" mode - it flips the mirror up and shows the image on the screen. You can zoom in to check focus as well. I assume other brands have a similar feature.
I like looking into a viewfinder in normal use. No need to switch to my reading glasses, no problem with bright sunlight. Compact cameras with viewfinders are not as common as they once were.
Quote from: maridunian on February 08, 2024, 05:40:42 PMI discovered that within macro mode it offers focus-stacking, ie it takes up to 10 snaps in rapid succession, focussing at various ranges within the scene, then merges them into a single photo. This happens in under 10 seconds with no intervention required.
One of my ideas awaiting a round tuit is to write software to control my camera to take a group of photos, then process them to make a focus stacked image. I reckon a side effect of the processing should be a depth map from which one could make a pseudo-stereo image.
Yes you can get cameras that do it for you, but where's the fun in that? :)
Rob, I know we have had conversations on this subject a couple of times, so apologies if any of the following is repeated
As you know I image stack most of model photographs using affinity.
The camera I use is a Canon EOS 550D which was purchased as a general use camera with no thought of layout photography.
I utilise a Canon EFS 18-135mm lens which has a minimum focus distance of 15", a 12" minimum focus distance would be better due to limited space to take the photograph in.
I generally take photographs with aperture priority and a F setting of f10 ISO of 100 and a 2 second shutter delay and utilise a tripod.
You need a camera where you can adjust which part of the picture you wish to focus on, if I want all of the photo in focus then take a grid across the whole picture 20 to 35 individual photos.
Also I switch between auto and manual focus, auto doesn't always focus on what you want it too.
Mirrorless cameras seem to be the new norm, however, not used one.
A image stacked image using affinity produces a file of 20 plus Mb per photograph.
For posting on the forum I reduce this in affinity to 200 to 500 kb by reducing the pixels to approx 1300 x xxx and reduce the image quality to medium from High.
You are aware of the photographs I produce, don't always get it right, but don't always show them, hope this is of some help, if not ignore.
Mike H
Ok, so I promised to explain something about the differences between cameras and lenses.
This is a bit harder than I thought but I'll share some of the photos I just took.
First a photo of my cameras. They look different but have the same sensor and lens mount.
This is one of the first things to consider. Do you want a larger camera with viewfinder and better grip or is a smaller camera with only a screen ok for you?
I prefer the smaller camera for photos of the layout because it can be put in smaller spaces.
Small camera with kit zoom lens, larger one with my macro lens.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224210329.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139411)
The reason this is harder than I thought is that it is not the camera that you use but the lens that makes the difference.
So I'll make seperate posts for the lenses I used, hope it makes things a bit more clear.
First a few phone pictures. I thought depth of field would be good because of the small sensor and focal length but it appeared that the phone doesn't have aperture control (you need to close the aperture to increase depth of field).
So a phone without focus stacking is useless for what you want to use it for.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224212309.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139413)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224212520.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139416)
It is not possible to get forefround and background sharp with my iPhone XR
Kit zoom lens.
Setup:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224213001.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139418)
Wide angle:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224213328.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139419)
Zoomed in:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224213711.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139420)
Wide angle focus stack (minimum focus distance too long):
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-080224214310.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139421)
Other lenses follow tomorrow evening, have to get up at 5 tomorrow...
Jan
Thanks all for the replies, very helpful as always.
For those interested open the following link:
https://www.canon.co.uk/pro/infobank/depth-of-field/
Geoff
I hope anyone is interested but here is the rest of my examples.
Here the results of my standard lens which I never tried for layout photos. I should have tried it earlier because it is wonderful!
Setup:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224202331.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139443)
It focuses closer than the kit zoom at wide angle:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224202500.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139444)
And gives very nice results with in camera focus stacking:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224202731.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139445)
In camera processing:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224202910.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139446)
And this is why I like a small camera:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224203934.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139449)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224204011.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139450)
And finally the macro lens:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224203414.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139447)
Which can capture details no other lens can ever do:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/139/5017-090224203557.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=139448)
Unfortunately no focus stacking because this lens was adapted from my previous DSLR and in camera stacking doesn't work with it.
These are really lovely pics JanW. Which Camera is that you are using, and lens?
Rob,
Just a few more thoughts
Don't forget you need to consider the lighting for good photographs. Roger of Wrenton fames photographs are very well lit and it shows unlike mine which relies solely on the layouts lights.
Personally I would prefer to select the focal points manually for image stacking in lieu of a camera selecting a small number of shots.
By Manila selection you can leave part of the image out of focus as I often focus only on the train and foreground and leave the distance blurred.
Quote from: Ensign Elliott on February 09, 2024, 09:59:51 PMThese are really lovely pics JanW. Which Camera is that you are using, and lens?
For the photos I took I used a Panasonic Lumix GX800 camera with 12-32mm kit lens, 20mm f1.7 standard lens (I really like this lens) and an old Olympus 35mm macro lens.
If you have a larger layout you might also want a longer (telephoto) lens to reach parts of the layout that are further away from the camera.
But any DSLR or mirrorless camera can do this as long as you use the right lenses. The advantage of a smaller camera is that you can place it on the layout where bigger cameras can't be used.
But some things are essential:
As Nbodger already mentioned lighting is most important for good results. Avoid harsh shadows and light sources with different colour temperatures.
The small layout I used for the photos has integrated led strips pointing upwards to a white painted 'roof' for diffuse lighting.
People also get good results by placing their layout on the garden table and use the sun (or clouded sky) as light source.
And use a tripod, especially if you want to use focus stacking. I have two small ones, the gorilla pod you see in most photos and a tiny Manfrotto used when I placed the camera on the layout.
About the options of stacking in camera or on the computer:
Using the computer to stack the images will give highest resolution results, when compared to my little Lumix camera.
Possibly the stacking results will also be a bit better with less artifacts.
My camera uses 4K video frames for automatic stacking with an 8Mpixel photo as result. For me this is perfectly adequate and keeps me away from the computer. I transferred the photos to my iPad via Wifi and posted them here.
Canon recently released eos R morrorless cameras that seem to do full resolution focus stacking in camera:
https://www.canon-europe.com/get-inspired/tips-and-techniques/focus-stacking-beginners/
My camera also has the option to select which part of the photo will be in focus, just as Nbodger does with the computer software.
I hope this will help get you started,
Jan
Thanks Jan and Mike for your help - lots to think about and research. I think I'll go to a camera shop and have a chat to them (if I can find one locally - they all seem to have disappeared!).
I have a good tripod and three sets of LED lighting stands which I use for my phone photos so all I really need is the camera.
Thanks again
I guess you need to decide about all the photos you might take, not just railway models. My TG-6 (still available, though not in production) zoom is 28-100mm equivalent, which isn't great for outdoor detail shots at distance. An SLR would obviously give you the greatest flexibility.
Mike