I'm getting back into the hobby after 4 decades!
Anyway, poking around on ebay and in the used sections at dealer's websites, I see a lot of stuff I quite fancy.
One item in particular on ebay is a set of Kato coaches, boxed, and while the boxy is scruffy the coaches themselves look spot on.
Thing is, I can work out that they are possibly as old as 2004.
Would I be taking a risk? What can really go wrong? Maybe the colours have faded?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
I have quite a few pieces of Kato rolling stock, locomotives, wagons and carriages. From research, I know that some of the pieces are from 20+ years ago and I do not think I have had a single problem with any of them, apart from one locomotive which I bought as a non-runner. (It is still a non-runner!). If the price is reasonable, go for it. :thumbsup:
2004 - positively young! Barely run in.
Kato-manufactured products are absolutely fabulous and will stand the test of time with ease.
Nothing wrong with a bit of colour fading - that's what happens to 1:1 scale stock.
As ever, approach e-bay with care, though.
I am buying ProperlyPoole Graham Farish rolling stock that is 20-40 years old and having such fun refurbishing it.
If in doubt, buy rolling stock second-hand and locomotives new. That minimises risk.
Best wishes
John
Quote from: keiron99 on December 03, 2023, 07:11:43 PMI'm getting back into the hobby after 4 decades!
Anyway, poking around on ebay and in the used sections at dealer's websites, I see a lot of stuff I quite fancy.
One item in particular on ebay is a set of Kato coaches, boxed, and while the boxy is scruffy the coaches themselves look spot on.
Thing is, I can work out that they are possibly as old as 2004.
Would I be taking a risk? What can really go wrong? Maybe the colours have faded?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
I have American rolling stock by Atlas dating back to the early 90s. Looks fine to me. I'm not sure about my UK outline though, but I think I have a few that would fall into the same time frame.
It's not easy to put an exact date on some of my second (or more) hand stock, but one railbus was only made from 1979 to 1985! It had one small bit of damage which I was able to repair but is otherwise fine. Another was made from 1969 to 1985. I like refurbishing old models.
I've got Graham Farish and Hornby Minitrix from the 80s, Union Mills form 2005 to last year, and many items of rolling stock from the 80s through to the early 2000s; if you like it apply Rule 1 and enjoy it!!
Age alone should not be the guiding factor in whether something is worth buying, providing it is at the right price!
Some stock of that age will be to current standards but others may have been superseded by a newer version of the same, so need to be careful not to pay the 'newer' price for the 'older' model...
If in doubt, for on-line sales, post a photo or link here and I'm sure many would be happy to advise.
Like others I have kit bought in the 80's all the way to now. it's your railway/train set, do what you like.
It is not the age, but the standard of build and realism, that matters. I have a few items that date from the 1960s but I rarely run them because they do not look nearly as realistic as their modern equivalents. However, I also regularly run several items of stock that date from as early as 1971 because they are accurate models.
There was a layout at Warley the other weekend where I noticed the owner was running 'shorty' under scale length German coaches - these are models that date from the 1960s. I personally would not run them on my own layout as I am not happy with incorrect scale length, but that is just a personal preference - and all railway modelling is down to personal preference.
Answering the original question, it's not daft at all. Running on my layout, maroon mk1 coach, circa 1990.
Loco: repainted Peco Jubilee, 1986.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/123/255-290522080212-123096907.jpeg)
Definitely a case of "Rule 1" it is your trainset, and it is entirely your choice, in terms of British stuff, there are sure to be plenty of Farish locos going right back to the 80s with plenty of life left in them and as long as you run Code 80 track, pretty much any stock even with "pizza cutter" wheels should be fine.
The Peco Jubilee (made by Rivarossi) in the picture above is a case in point, with it's origin in the late 60s, it was for a long time by common consensus the best RTR British steam loco out there, and it wasn't until the latest generation Farish models started arriving (Ironically the first being a Jubilee) that it began to look more dated.
The most important thing is that the models you buy give you enjoyment, but as others have said, exercise a little caution purchasing from eBay, scrutinise pictures carefully, ask for more if needed, if unsure walk away - there will usually be more.
Regards
Roy
It's maybe true to say more modern stock is more detailed but with very little effort/outlay older stuff can be improved. Sometimes a simple rewheeling can hugely improve old pizza cutter wheeled stock, for example
the only daft thing about the old stuff is if you pay the prices some rip off artists ask.
My 1980's Farish locos all still work. Some of them must have been to the moon and back. They also have far more pulling power that most modern locos. Add to this the number of modern bits that have failed. I still await a replacement motor for my Dapol class 22.
Rolling stock - bomb proof! Lost count of the trucks that have bounced off the floor and remained intact. I have seen coal truck brake gear sitting at the bottom of the box on model shop displays. I mush prefer the old stuff. If I want extra detail I can add as much as I like.
Elmo
Quote from: Firstone18 on December 03, 2023, 10:10:56 PMI've got Graham Farish and Hornby Minitrix from the 80s, Union Mills form 2005 to last year, and many items of rolling stock from the 80s through to the early 2000s; if you like it apply Rule 1 and enjoy it!!
Seconded! As have I and the locos. have all been successfully converted to DCC.
As others have said, 20 years old is still a youngster :) I have European N models going back to the mid to late 60s, yes they are a bit crude by they have a charm. I have no hesitation buying models from the 80s and 90s which still stand up well to scrutiny and have perfectly good mechanisms with flywheels. Some predate DCC sockets but that's not a problem as I mostly run DC anyway. Arguably some of the older mechanisms of the "quality brands" and from the days before production was outshopped to the far east are better built than some current products, plus they are easy to maintain as long as spares can be found.
The earliest models I still run all the time at exhibitions are Arnold multiple units dating from the mid 70s. Yeah there is a newer re-tooled model which is very good but these old sets with their deeper flanges and simple spring drive are still perfectly fine on my code 55 track.
This one's had a repaint but mechanically unchanged.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/96/medium_5885-080720222828.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=96720)
Rather than worrying about the age of the models, I think it's more important to build up some knowledge of the "quality brands" versus the cheap stuff, any well known poor models to be avoided etc. For example I would avoid old Grafar, Lima, Piko, Mehano stuff from the 70s but I know if I find an Arnold, Fleischmann, Minitrix loco of a similar age it may be an older design but still reliable.
Don't be tempted to buy any Lone Star stuff - for collectors only :)
As other suggest there is little intrinsically unwise in buying "old" models. They are unlikely to be up to modern standards of detail. You must decide if that matters to you. If buying locos it is best if you can see it running, but, say, older Farish are like old Triang/Hornby in 00. The mechanisms are simmple, robust, easy to get at and maintain though check you can source new brushes - these may be badly worn. But I have had some mechanisms going on for 30 years plus. With rolling stock I would advise being ready to replace wheelsets with modern all metal ones. Plastic wheels tend to pick up muck and deposit it on the track. Metal runs better and with finer flanges looks better. Older Farish wheels are easy to replace with current versions. Peco are now producing replacement all metal wheels for their wagons, though NTrain axles fit Peco wagons well.
As with remaining older coaches, I have over time made a full replacement. AS others have said, Minitrix have proved very reliable and long lasting. with the exception of the ex GWR Syphon G which is quite impressive, I would avoid Lima.
keiron talks about Kato coaches from maybe 2004 in the first post. I assume these are American coaches? The first smoothside sets from Kato came about ten years earlier (mid-90s), and they run just as well as the modern releases. The only drawback of these early smoothside and corrugated streamliner sets are that not all coaches are prototypical for all the roadnames. For example, the dome cars from the Baltimore & Ohio, Santa Fe or Southern Pacific were different to the ones from Kato as they were built by other makers.
So it is your decision to accept some differences you may not even know about – or if you want it really prototypical, then you would have to choose the later Kato sets of named trains like the City of Los Angeles, Broadway Limited or Morning Daylight. In these newer sets each car is correctly modelled after its prototype.
Other than that, Kato's plastics are durable and I have not seen any problems with shells getting brittle or warping. Certainly not with just 20 year old models, and also the first Kato F-unit releases from 1988 still look good (but the newer runs do have some modifications like lighted numbers and improved printing though).
Maybe you want to link to the set you consider? If it's an ebay buy-it-now item and is still available, then it certainly isn't priced too cheap, so we won't snap it away from you. ;)
Quote from: Chris in Prague on December 04, 2023, 10:26:57 AMQuote from: Firstone18 on December 03, 2023, 10:10:56 PMI've got Graham Farish and Hornby Minitrix from the 80s, Union Mills form 2005 to last year, and many items of rolling stock from the 80s through to the early 2000s; if you like it apply Rule 1 and enjoy it!!
Seconded! As have I and the locos. have all been successfully converted to DCC.
I've fitted decoders to all my locos, and also fitted coreless motors to those with failed armatures. My old Class 47 now has a B R Lines coreless conversion, and LED White/Red lights at both ends. It runs really well and not so noisy now even though it's the old brass gears in the bogies.
I often buy models produced over 20 years ago.
It keeps costs down and some British liveries are no longer currently available.
As long as they're in good overall condition they're welcome, even if needing servicing or refurbishment.
Older locos and rolling stock generally have fewer fiddly bits to damage or break and often have greater weigh for decent traction. If they run well, the decision is between cost, availability and looks. I consider the looks less important (unless very poor), as you don't see all the fine detail when running and viewed from a distance anyway.
You can't go wrong with Kato!,
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 06, 2023, 06:36:26 AMYou can't go wrong with Kato!,
I don't have any Kato, but have worked on one of the class 800 power cars for a friend. he dropped it and thought he'd wrecked it, but handed me a bag of bits and asked if I could try and put it back together! I was impressed with the quality of the Kato and the way it all fitted together without screws. Very easy to see how things were arranged and fitted it all back together, amazingly no missing bits! It runs as good as new again.
Having seen some of the new Bachfar and Dapol offerings when fitting decoders for various club members, I doubt they would have survived a drop like the Kato 880 did.
Bachfar and Dapol need to up their mechanical quality and QC considerably to match Kato IMO.
Quote from: Portpatrick on December 04, 2023, 02:17:17 PMAs other suggest there is little intrinsically unwise in buying "old" models. They are unlikely to be up to modern standards of detail. You must decide if that matters to you. If buying locos it is best if you can see it running, but, say, older Farish are like old Triang/Hornby in 00. The mechanisms are simmple, robust, easy to get at and maintain though check you can source new brushes - these may be badly worn. But I have had some mechanisms going on for 30 years plus. With rolling stock I would advise being ready to replace wheelsets with modern all metal ones. Plastic wheels tend to pick up muck and deposit it on the track. Metal runs better and with finer flanges looks better. Older Farish wheels are easy to replace with current versions. Peco are now producing replacement all metal wheels for their wagons, though NTrain axles fit Peco wagons well.
As with remaining older coaches, I have over time made a full replacement. AS others have said, Minitrix have proved very reliable and long lasting. with the exception of the ex GWR Syphon G which is quite impressive, I would avoid Lima.
Is N Train a UK or European company? I found a N Train.net site but couldn't see any wheelsets?
@Firstone18 https://n-train.net/ (https://n-train.net/) (your link is not correct) says on the banner "UK designed 3D kits". I'm sure the owner is/was a member of this forum.
Doesn't seem to be showing wheelsets on sale at the moment - could be they are batch produced and out of stock at the moment?
Quote from: ntpntpntp on December 06, 2023, 07:09:38 PM@Firstone18 https://n-train.net/ (https://n-train.net/) (your link is not correct) says on the banner "UK designed 3D kits". I'm sure the owner is/was a member of this forum.
Doesn't seem to be showing wheelsets on sale at the moment - could be they are batch produced and out of stock at the moment?
Contact person Bob Davies
Email bob@n-train.co.uk
Thanks for all the replies and apologies for my own late response; been away in cold, snowy and beautiful Riga.
What I was looking at specifically was a set of California Zephyr coaches (they are just so cool 8).
When I messaged the seller, I didn't like the tone of his response but as it happens, since then, a couple more sets have turned up albeit a mighty 11 coaches
So that leads to another question, if I may: how long is too long?
I haven't started my layout yet, but it will be about 320cm long and 70cm deep. Is a train with 11 coaches too long? I had assumed it would be rather ridiculous...I don't plan on building a station to accommodate that, for example.
Quote from: keiron99 on December 08, 2023, 01:31:39 PMSo that leads to another question, if I may: how long is too long?
I haven't started my layout yet, but it will be about 320cm long and 70cm deep. Is a train with 11 coaches too long? I had assumed it would be rather ridiculous...I don't plan on building a station to accommodate that, for example.
It probably does look silly running an 11 coach train into a terminal station with platforms only 3 or 4 coaches long, but there are plenty of examples where trains much longer than the platforms stop at through stations...
From a practical point of view, the limit is more about curve radii. If you are trying to pull a long train around a tight curve, performance will be affected. As a general rule, it is ideal to have the back end of the train at no more than 90
o from the front as beyond that you are effectively pulling in two directions at once and can lead to lighter vehicles toppling over.
I have quite a few 'Kato' California Zephyr coaches. Unfortunately, I can not get to my layout at the moment, or most of my stock. I did get to an add-on set and each coach measures about 6.5 inches. If your layout is 320cm, that is about 10.5 feet, so a train of 11 coaches would be in the region of 6.5 to 7 feet, including the locomotive. It would not look silly running over a 10.5 feet length of layout, especially if some of it was hidden in tunnels or behind scenery etc. However, what you have to bear in mind is the fact that it is your layout, so you do what you are happy with. :). Just one observation if I may - can the depth of the layout be increased a bit, say another 4 to 6 inches? As long as your nickname is not 'short arms', the extra few inches would give you a lot more to play with. :beers:
@PLD posted his reply as I was composing mine and he makes a good point about the track radii. Maybe you could use that as an excuse to treat yourself to another locomotive and run a 5
and a 6 car train? :-X ;)
Quote from: dannyboy on December 08, 2023, 02:10:25 PMI have quite a few 'Kato' California Zephyr coaches.
Having not personally seen the (models) in real life, can you vouch for their quality? Are they as good in the flesh as they look on screen?
Quote from: dannyboy on December 08, 2023, 02:10:25 PMJust one observation if I may - can the depth of the layout be increased a bit, say another 4 to 6 inches? As long as your nickname is not 'short arms', the extra few inches would give you a lot more to play with. :beers:
Oee-err missus. I've just measured up again. I guess I could go to about 80cm deep, although it wouldn't eave an awful lot of "gangway" space in the small office/box room in which I intend to build it.
Despite the relatively small size (it'd be 320cm long x 80cm deep, with a possible 90 degree extension on the right end , 90cm long x 70cm deep), I'm now feeling rather intimidated by the amount of board space I'd need to fill (and the cost!). Wondering whether I should pare back on my ambitions! OTOH, the space isn't needed for anything else and I'll (hopefully) be a long time retired, soooo....
for what it is worth,
while disposing of much of my inventory, I have retained a number of early purchases to run on v. xxxxx of Inverknockie.
locos run well, and haul loads due to heavy chassis.
ok, no lights, but that stops my rage at tail lights reflecting off the front of the first wagon / carriage.
[to me, coaches are driven down the motorway by stagecoach, not pulled by locos.]
unless you want the latest upgrades, then I see no problems with 20 year old stock.
change plastic wheels for metal if you want, it's your choice.
but I'd far rather try to strip / respray / re decal a 20 year old model that cost pounds, than a new one that cost 10's of pounds.
but then, I'm a luddite.
Quote from: keiron99 on December 08, 2023, 03:13:06 PMcan you vouch for their quality? Are they as good in the flesh as they look on screen?
In a word - 'yes'. I do not think I have ever had a piece of 'Kato' that has not worked as it should and, just as important, looked good! I think I have some photographs from my 'Averingcliffe' thread that might show the 'Zephyr' rolling stock - I will have a look later.
Quote from: keiron99 on December 08, 2023, 03:13:06 PMI'm now feeling rather intimidated by the amount of board space I'd need to fill (and the cost!).
Kieron, do not feel that you have to fill every available space - sometimes, especially in model railways, 'less is more'. Have a look at some of the layout threads and you will see what I mean. You can always add more later, as and when time - and money - allow. :thumbsup:
If you feel that an 11-coach train is too long (and you would also need three or four locomotives for the California Zephyr), maybe Kato's Silver Streak Zephyr would be the better choice? This is a complete train with five coaches and a single E5 locomotive.
https://katousa.com/n-silverstreak/
The train is a similar Budd corrugated stainless steel streamliner but has no dome cars in the consist. So, if you like the CZ especially because of its dome cars then the shorter train is no alternative.
And I can reassure you that the coaches from the 20 year old set don't have faded colours. They came in plain silver straight from the Kato factory. ;)
Quote from: keiron99 on December 08, 2023, 03:13:06 PMQuote from: dannyboy on December 08, 2023, 02:10:25 PMI have quite a few 'Kato' California Zephyr coaches.
Having not personally seen the (models) in real life, can you vouch for their quality? Are they as good in the flesh as they look on screen?
I have over 50 coaches from this period including the California Zephyr set. Only the most [pedantic would find fault with them. Great models.
@keiron99 Keiron, I can not find any photographs at the moment of the coaches, but this one shows my four E5 'Silver' locomotives -
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/4209-111121205400-1161252200.jpeg)
I should add that they are on the partially done 'Dilymic Fields', not 'Averingcliffe'. (Put it down as an 'age' thing).
That's very cool ????