As there are currently wish list polls running regarding N gauge DMUs, I thought I'd ask if anyone knows why there appears to be a lack of first generation AC EMUs.
Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough, but there doesn't seem to have been any models of Class AM2 - AM10 (302 - 310) made by the larger manufacturers.
I believe a Class 305 was available from DC Kits, but I'm not sure they are still in production.
Was there just no demand for these older EMU's to make the larger manufacturers think a model was viable?
(I notice this also appeared to be the case in 4mm/00 gauge as well.)
Anybody any thoughts?
Ed
Good point Ed. I have heard od or seen scratchbuilt models . Guess it maybe a number of factors including costs
@AndyRA I know has built
Plus Andy Stephney on Hatch End including the 501 units
Personally speaking , I'd love to see AM4 and Am10 / 12s as am not au fait or have the equipment or skills to go that route. Chris
I'd love please to hear from.nigel
@nharding99@Snowwolflair Dave who modelled the Glasgiw 303s
There are subtle dimension differences between, for example, the AM4 and AM10 units but we're only talking 2-3mm in our scale. The AM10 has curved cab windows which seem to be a no-no for manufacturers, and for some reason modelling of the WCML 1960s onwards does not seem too popular, although that could be a 'chicken and egg' situation i.e. I don't model it 'cos there's no RTR stock.
I travelled hugely in such units in the 60s but if someone decided to make some I'd end up building another layout I won't finish :-[
Electrics in general seem to have been of less interest than steam and diesel, it may be that manufacturers see more profit in the latter two.
Revolution have helped the Pantograph clan very well with the outstanding Pendolino and class 92s, maybe a little less so with the 320/1 with the reported issues (credit to RT though as they do listen and offer help/fixes, I'm sure it's a learning process), also the 313/4 in the pipeline.
Dapol have a decent 86, and soon to be added 87, Farish with the new 90, 319 and 350, hopefully it will show there is interest.
There are plenty of coaches to fit the Era you mention, it just misses classes 81 thru 85, and the AM series EMUs, I have an interest in the Mid 90s so a 304, 305 and 308 would certainly find a home.
Likewise the 3rd rail EMUs have been largely ignored (the OO modelers just got themselves a very nice looking 4BEP)
Within that range, I was thinking specifically AM2, AM5 and AM8s (class 302, 305 and 308) which were all used on Eastern region London suburban lines.
Everything does rather tend to be GWR/Western region.
Perhaps that's just the most popular and the manufacturers are fairly sure of sales volumes.
Ed
Quote from: Ed on November 08, 2023, 03:42:00 PMWithin that range, I was thinking specifically AM2, AM5 and AM8s (class 302, 305 and 308) which were all used on Eastern region London suburban lines.
Never say never. The new RevolutioN Trains 64ft chassis could be used at a pinch and is spot on for the class 308 ;)
I believe electra under Adam's ownership modelled the 310 with a flat window similar to the 312
I can see where your coming from mick, intercity and Ed. The 308 indeed utilise a 64ft chassis.
Hi
I built this 506 many years ago
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/main_8982.jpg)
It uses the BH Enterprises clear coach shells with scratchbuilt plasticard sides. The ends were created from 60 thou plasticard then filed to shape. It is powered by a modified TPM MU motorising unit.
Cheers
Paul
Looks good :thumbsup:
Ed
Stunning work Paul if modelling Manchester area units
Quote from: PaulCheffus on November 08, 2023, 04:20:15 PMHi
I built this 506 many years ago
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/main_8982.jpg)
It uses the BH Enterprises clear coach shells with scratchbuilt plasticard sides. The ends were created from 60 thou plasticard then filed to shape. It is powered by a modified TPM MU motorising unit.
Cheers
Paul
I managed to get a cab ride in one of these from Glossop Central to Piccadilly in 1975 (or 1976). Great view as we passed a host of 76s.
Strangely the whole feeling and ambience of that area was reproduced so well in League of Gentlemen!
Best
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on November 08, 2023, 10:23:44 PMQuote from: PaulCheffus on November 08, 2023, 04:20:15 PMHi
I built this 506 many years ago
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/main_8982.jpg)
It uses the BH Enterprises clear coach shells with scratchbuilt plasticard sides. The ends were created from 60 thou plasticard then filed to shape. It is powered by a modified TPM MU motorising unit.
Cheers
Paul
I managed to get a cab ride in one of these from Glossop Central to Piccadilly in 1975 (or 1976). Great view as we passed a host of 76s.
Strangely the whole feeling and ambience of that area was reproduced so well in League of Gentlemen!
Best
Bob
DON'T TOUCH THE THINGS!!!!
The 309 Clacton Unit is still done by Silver Fox in OO. Nice to have a maroon EMU for once, instead of green. They used to belt through Stratford station in the 1970s, on their way to Liverpool Street like they were on speed. Really nice to see the curved window 309s pass alongside the 30s curved windows of Stratford station (before it was rebuilt).
309s are simple conversions of Mk 1 coaches IIRC, with B4 bogies.
Just a thought.
Bob
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/1517-081123223212.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137052)
Where there's a will there's a way as they say. If I had waited for a lot of these early EMUs to appear in RTR form I would still be waiting to build my layout.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123223644.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137053)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123224214.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137054)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123224419.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137055)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123224631.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137056)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123230321.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137057)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123230846.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137058)
Quote from: Bob G on November 08, 2023, 10:32:59 PMThe 309 Clacton Unit is still done by Silver Fox in OO. Nice to have a maroon EMU for once, instead of green. They used to belt through Stratford station in the 1970s, on their way to Liverpool Street like they were on speed. Really nice to see the curved window 309s pass alongside the 30s curved windows of Stratford station (before it was rebuilt).
309s are simple conversions of Mk 1 coaches IIRC, with B4 bogies.
Just a thought.
Bob
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/1517-081123223212.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137052)
That's about the one class of EMU I would buy as a most definite Rule 1. The originals in maroon with the curved ends looked superb, and performed just as well, rated at 100mph (but not much of the line could take it when they were introduced).
I think comparing with the 4CEPs there was a lot of similarities, though I've not actually compared them too closely.
Martyn
www.n-train.net
We have been advertising and supporting NGF since the beginning, although my advert has gone since the upgrade.
Have you checked with Tank? I saw the ad on my phone the other day.
Quote from: AndyRA on November 08, 2023, 11:10:14 PMWhere there's a will there's a way as they say. If I had waited for a lot of these early EMUs to appear in RTR form I would still be waiting to build my layout.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123223644.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137053)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123224214.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137054)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123224419.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137055)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123224631.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137056)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123230321.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137057)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-081123230846.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137058)
Wow! looks great.
Are they all kits Andy or totally scratch built?
Ed
Stunning work
@AndyRA Good question posed by Ed. Love the 304 and 310
The 309 In Maroon looks like she us heading for Wolverton works
Chris
@Bob The 309s were fitted with Commonwealth bogies, at least when built. I don't know if they had B4 conversions later.
Martyn
The 309s were Commonwealth throughout their careers.
If you fancy a 304/5/8 and aren't averse to a bit of modelling, N-Train cabs on stripped Mark 1 coaches with Electra vinyls is the way to go. I believe Worsley Works also do etches.
Hopefully Electra should be back in full swing this month.
Martyn
@martyn All 309s were built with commonwealth bogies. The only exception was W59831 which originally was part of a WR class 123 and was converted to a Griddle Car. This was the only vehicle In all 309 units not to have commonwealth bogies
Quote from: martyn on November 09, 2023, 09:12:27 AM@Bob
The 309s were fitted with Commonwealth bogies, at least when built. I don't know if they had B4 conversions later.
Martyn
My bad. I must have seen a modified Minitrix rake and it became stuck in my head that they had B4 bogies.
Hi all,
Did some research into the ER based units when I produced 'Modelling East Anglias Railways in N' Document (Shameless plug; link below :D )
Here's the EMUs in brief;
302- Couldn't find any models for this one.
303- N-Train (3d Print) & Snowwolflair (3d Print)
304- N-Train Cabs (3d Print), with Electra Sides on old Farish Coaches.
305- See 304
306- Recreation21 (3d Print) Think they did a 1500v dc & ac conversion versions but can't remember now.
307- Worsley Works kit
308- See 304
309- Worsley Works kit - Do both 4-car & 2-car versions.
310- Recreation21 (3d Print)
312- See 304, but would be Farish Mk 2s instead.
Hope this helps
Stu
PS- Was told by a late friend who was a bobbie on the GE that the 309s when introduced would pull away out of Liverpool St like lightning in the peaks, as they were 12 coaches formed of 2x 4 car & 2x 2 car units, so were using 4 pans!
With old, fat, arthritic fingers and failing eyesight, kits and scratch building are a bit beyond me now. But out of interest how do you power these sort of models, some sort of power bogie like one of the Kato powered chassis?
Ed
The acceleration of the 309s, especially when running as 10 car, was phenomenal.
I didn't use them much, but I was always amazed at the speeds they reached between stops, and you could stand in the gangway and look at the spare cab speedo.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on November 09, 2023, 10:56:45 AMThe acceleration of the 309s, especially when running as 10 car, was phenomenal.
I didn't use them much, but I was always amazed at the speeds they reached between stops, and you could stand in the gangway and look at the spare cab speedo.
Martyn
There are good grounds for James Street to get OHLE then, so we can see 309s in their native land.
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on November 09, 2023, 11:09:07 AMQuote from: martyn on November 09, 2023, 10:56:45 AMThe acceleration of the 309s, especially when running as 10 car, was phenomenal.
I didn't use them much, but I was always amazed at the speeds they reached between stops, and you could stand in the gangway and look at the spare cab speedo.
Martyn
There are good grounds for James Street to get OHLE then, so we can see 309s in their native land.
Bob
Are you going to volunteer to do the track cleaning afterwards? :)
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 09, 2023, 11:46:02 AMQuote from: Bob G on November 09, 2023, 11:09:07 AMQuote from: martyn on November 09, 2023, 10:56:45 AMThe acceleration of the 309s, especially when running as 10 car, was phenomenal.
I didn't use them much, but I was always amazed at the speeds they reached between stops, and you could stand in the gangway and look at the spare cab speedo.
Martyn
There are good grounds for James Street to get OHLE then, so we can see 309s in their native land.
Bob
Are you going to volunteer to do the track cleaning afterwards? :)
@Southerngooner says they don't clean the track much anyway.
Quote from: Ed on November 09, 2023, 10:47:22 AMBut out of interest how do you power these sort of models, some sort of power bogie like one of the Kato powered chassis?
I've used a Greenmax chassis in each of the class 120 and 123 I built a couple of years ago. They run very well. So I'm sure they could be used in an EMU.
Quote from: Bob G on November 09, 2023, 11:09:07 AMQuote from: martyn on November 09, 2023, 10:56:45 AMThe acceleration of the 309s, especially when running as 10 car, was phenomenal.
I didn't use them much, but I was always amazed at the speeds they reached between stops, and you could stand in the gangway and look at the spare cab speedo.
Martyn
There are good grounds for James Street to get OHLE then, so we can see 309s in their native land.
Bob
:offtopicsign: :offtopicsign:
Just one thing-James Street is supposed to be LMR...... ;)
My ER stock initially was 'making the numbers up' as Steve hadn't got enough BR livery stock for the layout, but then it was sort of decided that there was a fairly major junction with to the ER which gave a better excuse for my Stock. Dave/southerngooner also supplies some suitable LMR or BR design locos and stock.
And I think Steve, assisted by Dave and me, still have more than enough to do detailing the layout!
Martyn
Surely the first EMUs in UK were in 1890 the City and South London Railway followed in 1898 by the Waterloo and City Railway, as for the first surface lines In 1908 the Lancaster to Morecambe and Heysham line was electrified by overhead lines at 6.6 kV 25 Hz, the LSWR started a programme of electrification in response to rising costs and loss of traffic to street tramways; their first installation was to Kingston, Richmond, Hounslow, Hampton Court and Shepperton, starting in 1917.
I don't know any detail of the Morecombe & Heysham line as to use of EMUs or electric locos but the LSWR used EMUs; from the title of this thread I'm surprised how the posts ignore these earlier EMUs
Weren't the first EMUs those on the Volks electric railway in Brighton?
and The Newcastle electric tramway system opened in 1902, but I think everyone knew what I meant in the thread title.
Would you like me to change it to "First Generation electric-powered multiple unit allocated a TOPS classification or used on the mainline network since 1948"?
Ed
Re: First Generation EMUs
#17
Today at 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: AndyRA on Yesterday at 11:10:14 PM
Where there's a will there's a way as they say. If I had waited for a lot of these early EMUs to appear in RTR form I would still be waiting to build my layout.
Wow! looks great.
Are they all kits Andy or totally scratch built?
Ed
The 501s are BH Enterprises 4EPB brass side kits, however the sides have had one compartment removed from each coach, and mounted on old Farish BG Mark 1 coaches. (The extra set of coach sides were used in making an early 304). The 4EPB cab ends had the original SR jumper details filed off and odd bits of plastic and wire added '501 style'. The sets were motorised with a Farish 87 mechanism.
The 304s were made with one of the early types based on old Farish Mark 1 coaches. The cab ends were made with 2mm plasticard filed and shaped. Some of the left over brass sides from my 501/EPB conversions were used, leaving gaps for the toilets and Guards compartment which had some filler added to give the sides a flush finish, and drilling out new windows.
A later style 304 with the larger windows was made using some BH Enterprises brass sides from a DMU Kit.
The 310s were made by converting various old Farish Mark 1/2 coaches which had the removeable window strips. These were replaced with some solid plasticard which had the new windows marked out, then drilled and filed. The cab ends were made in a similar fashion to the 304s from thick plasticard with new windows and jumper recesses drilled out and filed. The curved cab windscreens were made from perspex packaging from Peco Point Motors.
The 304s and 310s were originally motorised with a Greenmax chassis, but in more recent times were re-powered with a chassis by Tomytec.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-091123151759.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137068)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-091123151901.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137069)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-091123151955.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137070)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-091123152033.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137071)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-091123152123.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137072)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/5731-091123152229.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137073)
Great modelling :thumbsup:
Way better than anything I've managed to cobble together in other larger scales.
Thanks.
Ed
Quote from: Ed on November 09, 2023, 01:51:29 PM"First Generation electric-powered multiple unit allocated a TOPS classification or used on the mainline network since 1948"
Getting there - you've missed overhead vs top contact third rail vs side contact side rail! Then there's voltage and AC vs DC to worry about. No wonder few have been made RTR! :bounce:
True, but I did mention AC in the opening post :)
Ed
Quote from: Ed on November 09, 2023, 03:34:28 PMGreat modelling :thumbsup:
Way better than anything I've managed to cobble together in other larger scales.
Thanks.
Ed
appreciated Andy. Really helpful information and what's needed.
Brave chap making the AM10, (class 310). When I first lived in Watford in 1975, they were my regular commute to Euston.
If a 1st generation AC EMU was made RTR, the best choice would be a 304, 305/2 (305 501-19) or 308 unit, all with raked fronts.
Tooling options would be for refurbished versions of the 305s and 308s.
Refurbished 305s and 308s lasted to the early 2000s.
It goes without saying that I'd love to see an AM4 (Class 304) manufactured in N Gauge :) Perhaps one day those nice chaps at Revolution might oblige :thumbsup:
My own version serves a purpose but is obviously not as refined as today's off-the-shelf models
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/137/1787-101123171407.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=137107)
Cheers
Nigel H
Looks pretty cool to me. :thumbsup:
When I built my first layout after retiring, I wanted to use EMU's the class 504 was the one in use on the Bury Victoria line before the line was converted to the Manchester Metro.
It had a unique 3rd rail, encased in wood. I think the route was first electrified by the L&Y railway in 1916. They had already electrified the first mainline railway at Liverpool in 1904, at first it was fourth rail but changed to third rail later.
I am certain I saw a 504 model at a exhibition years ago, it was oo gauge though not N, can't remember where.
Chris H.
There is a class 504 in the Electra range, which is converted in the same way as the 304/4/8 units, using N-Train cabs and stripped old-style Mk1s.
I would love to see some emus. For me ideally southern subs or a 4TC be nice
Quote from: RednBlue on November 24, 2023, 07:14:46 PMI would love to see some emus. For me ideally southern subs or a 4TC be nice
I've made a tool that moulds these in HIPS!
(https://i.imgur.com/CsInSEX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Jaz5fex.jpg)
Quote from: Mr Sprue on November 24, 2023, 07:30:21 PMQuote from: RednBlue on November 24, 2023, 07:14:46 PMI would love to see some emus. For me ideally southern subs or a 4TC be nice
I've made a tool that moulds these in HIPS!
(https://i.imgur.com/CsInSEX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Jaz5fex.jpg)
stunning work!!!