Greetings to one and all,
I return to the hobby of model railways after a short hiatus (I last did Japanese N) following some inspirational trips to heritage lines here in the U.K.
I have been historically quite easily put off an idea once it seems "harder than a hobby should be" shall we say for example 3 Halls, 2 Granges and 1 Pannier that all had to be returned when last I tried U.K. N, which I to my shame largely got rid of save for a few items that I don't know how I missed them.
However following counselling I should be much better equipped for this but regardless of that from the past experience I looked at OO first as I also have a relative with a layout in this gauge and he seemed very keen for me to bring trains over for running sessions, so naturally I thought about OO here as well.
Then whilst digging all my bits out for that gauge I found an N Gauge Peco Loco Coal Wagon this morning:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-040823133206.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134503)
This as you can see was promptly place next to a OO gauge GWR wagon and immediately it came to mind what a better for the space layout I could have in N as opposed to OO, especially when (and please excuse the pile of bits behind I am actually sorting that out I promise LOL) the harsh reality of just how much space the OO was going to require, eagle eyed readers may even notice that Brunel himself has come to survey the land from the cab of the 2721 class pannier and has encouraged me to come on here and ask the piece of string questions that follow.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-040823133243.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134504)
So here goes:
Quality Control:
I know I have been spoilt by Kato and Tomix with this but has Dapols QC got any better since 2019 can I get say a Hall or 57XX and have a reasonable chance of it working after running in?
Pricing:
I did take a quick look about and things on the 2nd hand side seem similar in price to OO which I don't mind, just wondering if this is the norm at shows etc?
I have a OO 43XX on it's way already so that plus my panniers can be easy to take over to my relatives place and are not dead weight nor am I going to disappoint him either should N win this battle.
I will also add that I am not looking to come back and be ugly if things don't go or aren't quite as smooth as any advice given suggests.
Thank you in advance
Christopher
You're likely to get a wide range of responses but here's my take on things...........
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 04, 2023, 01:53:20 PMSo here goes:
Quality Control:
I know I have been spoilt by Kato and Tomix with this but has Dapols QC got any better since 2019 can I get say a Hall or 57XX and have a reasonable chance of it working after running in?
I believe Dapol are slowly replacing everything with the cardan shaft with motors in the loco so you might want to wait for a Hall dependent on how old you are :uneasy: I have a 57xx and it's a nice little runner.
Note - they also have a 43xx in the pipeline (I have one on pre order)
Regardless of make, all our models are hand made and, as such, anyone can get a 'Friday afternoon/Monday morning' jobbie. Don't accept new stuff that doesn't work - send it back whence it came until you get one that does.
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 04, 2023, 01:53:20 PMPricing:
I did take a quick look about and things on the 2nd hand side seem similar in price to OO which I don't mind, just wondering if this is the norm at shows etc?
2nd hand prices at shows can range between "That's too good to leave" to "Eh? You're having a laugh" and the former are very hard to find nowadays unless 'Anoraks Anonymous' are at the show or you know how to fix things enough to take a risk on them. I can't comment on 2nd hand 00 prices 'cos why would I look at 00? :D
Thank you NewportNobby :)
I am pleased to hear that Dapol are going through an upgrade process - very promising!
I had no idea that they were hand made in that fashion - very interesting and I guess as you say the thing to do is keep returning faulty locos etc until you strike as close to gold with it as you can.
At the old age of 33 I can hold off for a Hall a bit longer all credit to Dapol for doing this again.
2nd hand prices being like that is fine, I should have mentioned in the first post that I had looked into 009 but found locos to be "reasonable" but trucks etc a bit erm :goggleeyes: :*(
Must say and clearly why I am here asking about it all that N is looking very attractive compared to OO
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-040823160435.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134510)
Sonic Models have a 56XX out, is that worth a look too?
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 04, 2023, 04:05:19 PMSonic Models have a 56XX out, is that worth a look too?
I have 2 and they are stunning models. Overall I reckon the vast majority of purchasers was pleased with them
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/112/264-310721124825-1121811526.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/112/264-310721124827-112193143.jpeg)
Hi Christopher
Im afraid im not going to be much help but as a newcomer to N and a fellow GWR enthusiast I thought Id say Hi.
My local retailler assures me the new Dapol stuff is spot on. He reckons it can sound a bit rough while running in but once youve done that its fine
Accordingly my first purchase will be a Dapol 57XX .My second purchase will undoubtedly be a Sonic 56XX. 5619 lives less than a,mile down the road at Telford Steam Railway.
Anyway enjoy and long live the works of Mr Churchward and Mr Collett :thumbsup:
Well I don't know about not jumping in both feet first but I will give N another shot, I have ordered a 56XX from Rails just now int Shirtbutton and it was the only one that they had in stock so it felt like a final sign.
OO look like toys compared to N.
Just sayin, like.
Another question so I can prep ahead of the loco arriving, are the Kato SX Controllers safe to use with UK models? I have a memory of reading that they weren't due to the flavour of PWM used.
I do have a Gaugemaster Combi that I would just need to attach wires too instead
Apoligies if I'm speaking out of turn as I am not at all familiar with the Kato SX Controllers ::) But surely PWM can only produce a square wave with a variable mark/space ratio. If it were to produce any other waveform I cant see how it could damage a DC motor but I also dont see how you'd be able to get full throttle. Sorry if I've missed something but logic tells me there cant be a problem :hmmm:
Oh, just jump! The water's great! :D
Ross.
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 05, 2023, 01:17:51 PMAnother question so I can prep ahead of the loco arriving, are the Kato SX Controllers safe to use with UK models? I have a memory of reading that they weren't due to the flavour of PWM used.
I do have a Gaugemaster Combi that I would just need to attach wires too instead
The Kato SX controller done some funky things with the lights on my Rapido Class 28 when I tested it.
The Combi worked perfectly and is my DC controller of choice.
Combi is now linked up to an oval of track ready for testing thank you :thumbsup:
@RBTKraisee I think I might have done now, scored a Dapol 57XX and Autocoach for £60 before my test 56XX has arrived! Lol
I guess I need a 45XX or 64XX to play with that Autocoach, unless the 14XX has been re-chassised
My only 2 bits of UK N Gauge stock are now on the layout awaiting the 56XX, 57XX, 3 Peco Wagons, Autocoach and Farish Toad (well I need to test them under load right?) ;)
Well it and the Toad have arrived and must say this is almost if not Kato steam quality! Sonic have done such a good job!
Whilst I don't have much of a train for it to pull right now I foresee a lot of playing testing to rebuild my confidence with UK outline steam - suppose I should think of a layout name now!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-080823205845.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134664)
Thanks to all who have helped guide me thus far :beers:
:sorrysign: folks but OO is the winner here by a country mile, the 56xx will be returning to rails asap
once again I thank all who responded for their help with this.
for now on my N Gauge will be my superb collection of Japanese N which I can rely on to work consistently from the get go
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-090823192758.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134684)
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 08, 2023, 08:59:50 PMWell it and the Toad have arrived and must say this is almost if not Kato steam quality! Sonic have done such a good job!
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 09, 2023, 07:28:16 PM:sorrysign: folks but OO is the winner here by a country mile, the 56xx will be returning to rails asap
Care to tell us what's gone wrong?
Sorry yes, I realise now that I didn't properly bring you all in on the goings on of last night.
Well the 56xx began to run badly being slow or non-responsive to the controller outputs this was then compounded by the 57xx being extremely jerky, I left the latter running for well over an hour to settle in and it just got worse and worse.
I then for sake of a fair test with the same train in tow ran my C12 2-6-2T and it was smooth, consistent and responsive under the exact same conditions with the exact same controller as the other 2 had been used with (well except the pannier never got to the stage where I felt it was read to haul anything).
I read back through this thread whilst the C12 was running and thought while I don't mind returning the odd one back even multiple times to get a working loco as suggested with both of these playing a game of silly wotsits was this going to be the case with every locomotive? Is this something I realistically want to be doing buying a loco that I am suspecting won't work before it is even on the track?
I have said in the past that I have been spoilt by Kato and Tomix, but then I don't think I have as such, I don't expect the super low crawl that I get from a Kato steam loco and I do take into account that the majority of the locos in my Japanese fleet have for example more pickups than an 0-6-2T or 0-6-0T with more of them being tender engines - hence my choice of using the C12 as a fairness test loco. But what I do expect is when I pay over £100 for a loco is that the thing at the minimum works consistently and that the troublesome one is the novelty rather than what I am resigned to expect.
With all that in mind I calmly came to the conclusion that Japanese N with perhaps a timesaver (if I can ever work out how those work LOL) in US N would be the future of me with this scale, after all the definition of madness is to keep trying the same thing and expecting different results.
For a fuller picture the tally of locos that have failed upon arrival:
GF - J39
D - Hall
D - Hall
D - Hall
D - Grange
D - Grange
GF - A1
D - Pannier
D - Pannier
D - 14xx
D - 45xx
GF - Black 5
GF - Jinty
GF - 03
GF - 8F
GF - 8F
The 8F's were both the new tooling btw
now to be fair the list of non- U.K. locos that have not worked upon arrival and in similar fashion were no hopers that had to be returned for a replacement/refund as per the above list:
K - 2 car EMU the class of which escapes me right now so please see attached image of it's replacement:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-100823101645.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134714)
So as you can work out from the stack of models I posted the image of last night it was very much the odd one out as far as the sheer amount of motorised models in my collection of Japanese rail goes.
I thank you all for your help once more and I am disappointed that it wasn't to be especially as the Sonic loco (lacking from the list as it did work beautifully initially) did seem to point to a marked improvement over past experience and clearly it is going to be a much more modest layout in OO but again whilst I have had a higher percentage than the Kato/Tomix stable fail in this scale it is still less then that of British Steam outline in N.
Is it the total end of me modelling the U.K. in this scale, I won't say that it is for good (in difference to my pre-counselling mental state as mentioned in the opening post) but I wouldn't suspect it would be steam sadly.
Thanks for that. I would say you have been exceptionally unlucky as, in about 120 purchases, I think I've only had to send maybe ½ a dozen back for replacement over some 30 years or more but that's no consolation to you.
Good luck in whatever you choose to model
I've never yet had to send any loco back (so far, touch wood), I think it is telling that my best performing one - by far - is the little KATO Pocket Line 4-wheel electric shunter I picked up a couple of years ago for £36 brand new.
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 10, 2023, 10:17:27 AMSorry yes, I realise now that I didn't properly bring you all in on the goings on of last night.
Well the 56xx began to run badly being slow or non-responsive to the controller outputs this was then compounded by the 57xx being extremely jerky, I left the latter running for well over an hour to settle in and it just got worse and worse.
I then for sake of a fair test with the same train in tow ran my C12 2-6-2T and it was smooth, consistent and responsive under the exact same conditions with the exact same controller as the other 2 had been used with (well except the pannier never got to the stage where I felt it was read to haul anything).
I read back through this thread whilst the C12 was running and thought while I don't mind returning the odd one back even multiple times to get a working loco as suggested with both of these playing a game of silly wotsits was this going to be the case with every locomotive? Is this something I realistically want to be doing buying a loco that I am suspecting won't work before it is even on the track?
I have said in the past that I have been spoilt by Kato and Tomix, but then I don't think I have as such, I don't expect the super low crawl that I get from a Kato steam loco and I do take into account that the majority of the locos in my Japanese fleet have for example more pickups than an 0-6-2T or 0-6-0T with more of them being tender engines - hence my choice of using the C12 as a fairness test loco. But what I do expect is when I pay over £100 for a loco is that the thing at the minimum works consistently and that the troublesome one is the novelty rather than what I am resigned to expect.
With all that in mind I calmly came to the conclusion that Japanese N with perhaps a timesaver (if I can ever work out how those work LOL) in US N would be the future of me with this scale, after all the definition of madness is to keep trying the same thing and expecting different results.
For a fuller picture the tally of locos that have failed upon arrival:
GF - J39
D - Hall
D - Hall
D - Hall
D - Grange
D - Grange
GF - A1
D - Pannier
D - Pannier
D - 14xx
D - 45xx
GF - Black 5
GF - Jinty
GF - 03
GF - 8F
GF - 8F
The 8F's were both the new tooling btw
now to be fair the list of non- U.K. locos that have not worked upon arrival and in similar fashion were no hopers that had to be returned for a replacement/refund as per the above list:
K - 2 car EMU the class of which escapes me right now so please see attached image of it's replacement:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-100823101645.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134714)
So as you can work out from the stack of models I posted the image of last night it was very much the odd one out as far as the sheer amount of motorised models in my collection of Japanese rail goes.
I thank you all for your help once more and I am disappointed that it wasn't to be especially as the Sonic loco (lacking from the list as it did work beautifully initially) did seem to point to a marked improvement over past experience and clearly it is going to be a much more modest layout in OO but again whilst I have had a higher percentage than the Kato/Tomix stable fail in this scale it is still less then that of British Steam outline in N.
Is it the total end of me modelling the U.K. in this scale, I won't say that it is for good (in difference to my pre-counselling mental state as mentioned in the opening post) but I wouldn't suspect it would be steam sadly.
Quote from: Great West(Midlands) Rail on August 10, 2023, 10:17:27 AMSorry yes, I realise now that I didn't properly bring you all in on the goings on of last night.
Well the 56xx began to run badly being slow or non-responsive to the controller outputs this was then compounded by the 57xx being extremely jerky, I left the latter running for well over an hour to settle in and it just got worse and worse.
I then for sake of a fair test with the same train in tow ran my C12 2-6-2T and it was smooth, consistent and responsive under the exact same conditions with the exact same controller as the other 2 had been used with (well except the pannier never got to the stage where I felt it was read to haul anything).
I read back through this thread whilst the C12 was running and thought while I don't mind returning the odd one back even multiple times to get a working loco as suggested with both of these playing a game of silly wotsits was this going to be the case with every locomotive? Is this something I realistically want to be doing buying a loco that I am suspecting won't work before it is even on the track?
I have said in the past that I have been spoilt by Kato and Tomix, but then I don't think I have as such, I don't expect the super low crawl that I get from a Kato steam loco and I do take into account that the majority of the locos in my Japanese fleet have for example more pickups than an 0-6-2T or 0-6-0T with more of them being tender engines - hence my choice of using the C12 as a fairness test loco. But what I do expect is when I pay over £100 for a loco is that the thing at the minimum works consistently and that the troublesome one is the novelty rather than what I am resigned to expect.
With all that in mind I calmly came to the conclusion that Japanese N with perhaps a timesaver (if I can ever work out how those work LOL) in US N would be the future of me with this scale, after all the definition of madness is to keep trying the same thing and expecting different results.
For a fuller picture the tally of locos that have failed upon arrival:
GF - J39
D - Hall
D - Hall
D - Hall
D - Grange
D - Grange
GF - A1
D - Pannier
D - Pannier
D - 14xx
D - 45xx
GF - Black 5
GF - Jinty
GF - 03
GF - 8F
GF - 8F
The 8F's were both the new tooling btw
now to be fair the list of non- U.K. locos that have not worked upon arrival and in similar fashion were no hopers that had to be returned for a replacement/refund as per the above list:
K - 2 car EMU the class of which escapes me right now so please see attached image of it's replacement:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/134/9789-100823101645.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=134714)
So as you can work out from the stack of models I posted the image of last night it was very much the odd one out as far as the sheer amount of motorised models in my collection of Japanese rail goes.
I thank you all for your help once more and I am disappointed that it wasn't to be especially as the Sonic loco (lacking from the list as it did work beautifully initially) did seem to point to a marked improvement over past experience and clearly it is going to be a much more modest layout in OO but again whilst I have had a higher percentage than the Kato/Tomix stable fail in this scale it is still less then that of British Steam outline in N.
Is it the total end of me modelling the U.K. in this scale, I won't say that it is for good (in difference to my pre-counselling mental state as mentioned in the opening post) but I wouldn't suspect it would be steam sadly.
do you think it could be the controller thats the problem ?
Not after testing the same set up exactly with one of my Kato locomotives of a similar size, infact since that day I have been having a last hurrah with my Japanese N before it is boxed away and stored out of the way pending it's future and not one train or locomotive has exhibited any of the symptoms that the Sonic & Dapol ones did even my MicroAce ones that from what I gather are not viewed as good model locomotives in their build/running quality.
Thank you for trying to help though! :thumbsup:
Well a year on nearly and just like that I reappear :wave:
Since we last spoke I have dabbled in N a few times and the OOther gauge too (as well as trying TT:120 which was a massive mistake in itself for me!).
I have now got a nice shiny Ivatt 2MT, Class 31, Class 17 and a poorly Class 24 - not sure what has gone wrong on this one works on analogue not DCC anymore tried a known working chip to no avail and then when that chip went back in the original loco it was fine so I guess that is off to Bachmann as I am not sure that the Bridgnorth Station Shop would be wanting to deal with something brough in December! - but a super runner prior to that!
I know it is not the most popular Railway for some but a recent trip to the museum at Steam and a years worth of counselling for various MH issues sees me settled on the GWR and now choosing my gauge, I see that things are a little thin on the ground for that concern loco wise but have a "big spend" in my Rails basket right now and was thinking that at TINGS or similar I might be able to mop up other locos, I am thinking of the Castle, Hall & Manor with a cats hope in hell of the Union Mills locos turning up.
I see that there are Granges and 38XX to be had at Osbournes still.
I do hope that Dapol has improved in the past year and if not then my plan to not try to hard but just ask whoever I buy new from to test before sending and contact straight away if all is not well for whatever reason survives contact with the foe :)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/9789-050824203321.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=143866)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/143/9789-050824203423.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=143867)