Hi all,
Well I have put it off long enough but my trusty Lexmark X9575 is clearly dying, as the driver is having problems and the ink cartridges just tend to dry up (as well as being expensive!).
So having resurrected my search for the 'perfect printer', I am still torn by the choice of either a color laser or color inkjet. Each obviously has their own pros and cons but the real question is what is really good out there for doing decals???????
I want a versatile printer that can make good decals - great resolution down to fine graphics for 1:148 but mostly doing 1:72-1:56 scales.
So please do share your own personal experiences, as well as any printer recommendations (as well as ones to avoid). :helpneededsign:
Thanks in advance.
Well this won't help but personally I still maintain an ancient Citizen Printiva printer which uses the Alps Microdry technology (dry ribbon inks). In the 90s and 00s Microdry was considered the best "home user" method to produce decals, with the ability to print in metallic colours and in white (the latter is a must in my opinion), and able to print on thin waterslide decal film. The results can be pretty good, though some colour shades are a bit dithered and people used to come up with recipies comprising layers of solid colours and white. Here's an example of white decals I produced back in 2004 for an N scale multiple unit, even the wording in the windows is legible at around 0.5mm height.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/5885-200920132123.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/5885-200920133331.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/5885-200920133302.jpeg)
Sadly the Alps printers are long out of production and supplies of the inks are dwindling.
Given the options available now, I'd go for laserjet rather than inkjet as in my experience inkjet decal production kits tend to need thicker film and sealing coats etc. Laser toner doesn't dry out like some inkjet cartridges can when not used for a while. I got rid of our home inkjet printers years ago and stick to networked laser printers now, ideal for everyone in the family. We currently have a Samsung multifunction mono laser for general use and churning out photocopies, and an HP Laserjet Pro MFP M277DW colour laser which I think does pretty decent renditions of photos.
I'm aware of the laserjet "Ghost White" toner and printer bundles but they're not cheap! I'm not convinced by the methods which print on white film and rely on a good match to the main background colour of the model to blend in the decal.
https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/ (https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/)
The problem with doing transfers on a home printer (definitely laser, not sure about inkjet) is that they don't have the colour depth of commercial transfers which are screen-printed using paint. Therefore some colour combinations of transfer and underlying paint just won't work.
Nick Evans, @njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147), has very kindly done me a couple of batches of white transfers using his Ghost White toner which serve my purpose very well on a lightish grey background, just looking like lettering that's faded a bit. They aren't so good on darker backgrounds, though.
The same applies to other colours - yellow over red or crimson lake is nigh-on invisible and pretty much the same over white, so what should be gold lettering on my Furness Railway coaches had to be done in red instead.
I was able to do the black lining on my recent Furness Railway locos, even over a fairly dark indian read they show up reasonably well. For the crests, however, I had to paint white dots of the right size and put the transfers over those to make them visible. Ditto the buffer beams which I painted white than applied the whole buffer beam graphic as a single transfer.
Yes as Chris said, I've got an HP M177FW with Ghost White toner. I think you need to approach things a bit differently with home made decals, but I find them really versatile. Use of white-backed decal paper is good when you want intensity, but is no good for intricate shapes, as you have to cut accurately. So no good for lettering etc. The white toner is pretty good, it definitely lacks the intensity, but is fine for my use.
All the decals below were printed by me. The Imerys JIA used the white toner, you can see the intensity is ok, but not stunning.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52032468679_2329916c6d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ngW19X)Decals (https://flic.kr/p/2ngW19X) by njee20 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/46244709@N04/), on Flickr
The Drax wagon uses white backed paper for the coloured 'swooshes', and clear for the logos, and the JLR container is printed on white backed.
I use Mr Decal Paper paper, which is pretty good. It responds well to Micro Sol/Set to reduce the carrier film, and isn't too thick.
I would get a laser all day long. Sealing the decals with an inkjet is a pain, and the blacks can bleed to purple a bit. Plus the printers are just so much less finicky. My laser just works every time (and it's an old one I bought second hand!), rather than dealing with blocked nozzles, dried cartridges etc.
Nick, have you ever tried printing a colour transfer on top of a white one?
Ross.
Not in one pass, no. Anecdotally everyone says the printers just aren't accurate enough to get both layers in the same place, so I'm not adequately bothered to try. Obviously you'd want millimetre perfection. ALPS type printers hold the paper in one place whilst doing multiple passes.
I do print white 'intensity patches' to go under colour decals, which works well. It's actually what Fox provide on some of theirs anyway to avoid decals looking washed out.
That's how the Freightliner logos are done here:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/133/1147-160623181650.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=133083)
Quote from: njee20 on June 16, 2023, 06:17:10 PM
Not in one pass, no. Anecdotally everyone says the printers just aren't accurate enough to get both layers in the same place, so I'm not adequately bothered to try. Obviously you'd want millimetre perfection. ALPS type printers hold the paper in one place whilst doing multiple passes.
I'd be more concerned about the effect of feeding the fuser unit with a sheet of paper/transfer film with an already fused image on it.
Yeah not sure if that would cause problems. I'll try it sometime. Where it'd be great is data panels on a white backing, where actually being out very slightly wouldn't matter. I don't know if it would be out by a mm, or a few hundredths of one. One to play with in due course. For now I just do one decal with the white panels, and then one with the text over the top.
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
The problem with doing transfers on a home printer (definitely laser, not sure about inkjet) is that they don't have the colour depth of commercial transfers which are screen-printed using paint. Therefore some colour combinations of transfer and underlying paint just won't work.
Nick Evans, @njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147), has very kindly done me a couple of batches of white transfers using his Ghost White toner which serve my purpose very well on a lightish grey background, just looking like lettering that's faded a bit. They aren't so good on darker backgrounds, though.
The same applies to other colours - yellow over red or crimson lake is nigh-on invisible and pretty much the same over white, so what should be gold lettering on my Furness Railway coaches had to be done in red instead.
Very true. I tried printing some yellow decals to go on bauxite wagons and they were invisible. I got them done by precisionlabels.com in the end. I have a Brother laser printer (which my wife absolutely hates, but that is by-the-by...). I also tried to print some photos on it, but the resolution was nowhere near as good as my old inkjet. I have a few other decals I would like to try, but if they are not a success I will stick with precisionlabels.com for the small number I am likely to need.
Cheers,
Chris
That's interesting. I can't really tell the difference between those I printed on my old inkjet versus laser. I know people talk about dot dithering being an issue on laser prints, but I've not really had a problem. The gradients on things like those Drax wagons come out alright. I'll try and take a closeup. I forget the figure, but when I looked it seemed that most printers were the same resolution (1200 dpi?).
As an aside if anyone wants to print some decals on an inkjet printer I've got a few sheets of decal paper. Free to a good home.
So are there any good printers out there?
My current searches have lead to these being possible contenders:
Canon PIXMA iX6850
Canon i-SENSYS LBP633Cdw
Lexmark C3326DW COLOR Laser
Any thoughts on the above, or other options, most welcomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS I don't have experience with Canon printers but someone recently told me that they don't last long, as they have some sort of sponge device that soaks up the unused ink and once it is full, the printer is basically dead....
We had a Canon Pixma inkjet a few years ago. It was ok and could create decent glossy photo prints. It went with my son to uni and unfortunately failed, I think partly down to lack of regular use causing head blockage which I was unable to clean out when it came back home.
I've not tried a Canon laser printer.
I trust Samsung lasers, having had a basic mono unit for many years until we upgraded to a multi-function with scanner/copier capabilities.
As mentioned in a previous reply we also have an HP colour laser multi-function and that's been fine so far though doesn't get as much usage as the Samsung mono. It has WiFi connectivity whereas our Samsung laser is networked via our NAS storage server.
We had an A3 Brother inkjet for a while as we needed something for my son to print larger format schoolwork etc. The damn thing was always suffering paper jams and also ended up with ink blockages so I was rather put off that brand.
Laser printers every time for me now, other than the very old Printiva but that's only for decals.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on June 18, 2023, 12:40:49 AM
We had a Canon Pixma inkjet a few years ago. It was ok and could create decent glossy photo prints.
Ditto. The big problem is the print heads getting clogged up with dry ink if you don't use them regularly. When everything was working, they were fine and produced nice prints but trying to keep them in that state drove me mad. I used to try to run a test page once a week but inevitably you forget. I'm not sure I would recommend a Canon inkjet, but I don't know whether there are any others which are better.
Cheers,
Chris
Thanks all for sharing your insight, as that is what I am after.
As for Lexmark, well my only experience with them is the Inkjet X9575 I have, and it does do a good job. Yet, as everyone says, if you don't use it all the time you end up having to buy new cartridges just after a few prints.
As for HP, the old ones were great, and I still have a few B&W laser ones running for my work stuff. Yet, the HP inkjets are just crap...at least in my experience.
I have not looked at either Samsung or Brother, so I will see what is out there. Any specific recommendations?
All I really want is a printer that can print small details really well....not too much to ask, or is it???
Samsung don't make printers any more. The business was taken over by HP some time ago.
Why did you identify those three models? This feels like you've not actually read any of the replies...?
I'd definitely go laser. Inkjet printers are just too unreliable unless you're going to be using it constantly, and you have the hassle of sealing decals. If you've got one, great, but not what I'd buy for the job.
I've been really happy with my HP one, despite buying it cheap and second hand. I actually did it backward and bought the Ghost White Toner first, so that dictated the printer choice, but I'd definitely recommend HP.
What sort of detail do you actuslly need? I can print legible TOPS panels in 2mm, but it is discernible they're not quite as fine as Railtec et al.
The only issue I've had is occasionally decals totally smudge, like they've not been adequately fused, but I've never worked out why.
QuoteWhy did you identify those three models? This feels like you've not actually read any of the replies...?
Well I actually read a bunch of printer reviews, and for art graphics the two Canon ones were very top of the list (in my price range).
As for the Lexmark laser, I honestly didn't know they weren't all that good, as my Lexmark inkjet was fine up until recently....so I thought Lexmark would be okay.
Always happy to take on as much info as possible. So please keep sharing your experiences :)
Quote from: Lurch on June 18, 2023, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 18, 2023, 12:18:53 AM
So are there any good printers out there?
Personally I would always stick to laser printers... ...and generally needs less maintenance/doesn't "dry up".
Funnily enough when I worked in IT one of the department heads went and bought their department it's own top of the line colour laser printer without consulting the IT department first. The thing was constantly breaking down and/or producing rubbish prints. When we did some digging it turned out that even though it was a desktop sized printer it was basically designed to be running constantly in environments churning out hundreds if not thousands of colour pages a day; the problems were being caused by infrequent short prints runs and the fuser not being worked hard/long enough if I remember correctly!
I know it's not relevant here but there's some amazing top-end colour lasers out there now that'd be great for decals (I'd looking into buying one for the purpose of starting a decal printing business) but I wonder if they'd have the same problem if you did stick them in a lower use environment.
I decided to do my own on my HP inkjet and bought the paper and sealing spray from Print4Life. I was planning to do some last week, but could not find my guillotine to cut down to A6. Never thought about the colour cartridge drying out, so I guess I should do a couple of trial runs on ordinary paper first. I'll let you know the results when I've done it.
Peter
So after talking to some others, I was recommended to look at Epson printers.
I saw this one: Epson WorkForce WF-7830
Does anyone have experience with Epson printers that they would kindly share?
An A3 inkjet feels like a somewhat illogical choice for your intended use and all the feedback you've had...
Why was it recommended to you, and by whom? Sounds like they're the people to ask. It's certainly not what I'd buy.
I have an Epson XP-215 that I bought several years ago now. I use it mostly for decals, and it works fine. Despite infrequent use, it has not dried out. It does nag if you do not use original carts though.
I do print on paper first to check everything is okay first, both with the printer and with my designs.
QuoteAn A3 inkjet feels like a somewhat illogical choice for your intended use and all the feedback you've had...
Why was it recommended to you, and by whom?
Not really, as it gives me a better scanning ability with A3.
As for printing, 4 separate cartridges look to be a good approach...although expensive.
In terms of 'whom'....just me looking at what 'artists' use to recreate prints, as they are looking for the best possible resolution...like me. :)
So the other choice was a Canon PIXMA iX6850....but then others comments here put me off a bit about this 'sponge' device eventually making the printer useless. The resolution on this printer does seem good at 9600 x 2400 dpi. That said, it does seem to be rather limited to only doing this on glossy photo paper (at least from the many YT reviews I have watched).
So any thoughts on the Epson printers? :confused1:
There isn't a lot of choice out there really. I am definitely not getting any more HP printers, as they use to be great but lack of quality control has made them useless.
PS Can someone also clarify to me the pros and cons of 'pigment inks' vs 'dye inks'....notably for decal printing? I have searched but there is a bit of conflicting info out there.... :confused1:
That's an insane resolution. Definitely agree with separate cartridges, but I still wouldn't get inkjet. But that's been said repeatedly, so not sure it bears repeating!
I hear what your saying njee20 but from my searches they all suggest inkjets over laser. I also had a friend bring up the point that a laser doesn't produce as vivid colors and the thermal heat on the decal paper is sometimes problematic.
My only experience making decals is via my Lexmark Inkjet....and as I said at the start of this thread, it is dying (as all printers eventually do!).
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 20, 2023, 08:15:41 PM
PS Can someone also clarify to me the pros and cons of 'pigment inks' vs 'dye inks'....notably for decal printing?
I would assume pigment inks would be better for decals simply because you're printing on top of a thin carrier film which doesn't absorb dyes in the same way as paper does? Again harking back to my old Microdry printer which is effectively
pigments dye sublimation applied to the surface of the film.
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 20, 2023, 08:31:10 PM
I hear what your saying njee20 but from my searches they all suggest inkjets over laser. I also had a friend bring up the point that a laser doesn't produce as vivid colors and the thermal heat on the decal paper is sometimes problematic.
I think you need to get decal "paper" specific to either inkjet or laser for that reason. But if it is designed for laser, I am pretty sure it will be suitable for laser.
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 20, 2023, 08:31:10 PM
I hear what your saying njee20 but from my searches they all suggest inkjets over laser. I also had a friend bring up the point that a laser doesn't produce as vivid colors and the thermal heat on the decal paper is sometimes problematic.
My only experience making decals is via my Lexmark Inkjet....and as I said at the start of this thread, it is dying (as all printers eventually do!).
Except for the people on this thread who have recommended lasers you mean...? I've no dog in the fight, so you do whatever you think is right. You buy laser-specific decal paper, so that's a non-issue. Yes if you use inkjet stuff then it can melt to the fuser and cause all sorts of issues (I believe, I've never tried it, because that would be daft!). Because they don't need sealing the decals are thinner than inkjet printed ones, and respond better to things like Microsol/Microset. I get that dot dithering can be an issue, but I've not really experienced it across a myriad of different decals. I can see the appeal behind a finer resolution, definitely. I do notice that I can't print as small and retain legibility, it's good enough for me, but definitely the one thing I'd improve.
Just my £0.02 from having produced 4-500 wagons worth of decals. Some photos here of cruel close ups. These are OO gauge, as those are the only ones I've got to hand! Hoping this shared album link works, CBA to go through the rigmarole of adding them in line here!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uAKDzpck36zBDrtLA
Apologies I feel a bit beligerent, just find it a bit odd that you keep asking for advice on specific machines that no one has mentioned, but ignoring what mulitple people are saying. If you're being told that certain printers are good then those are the people to ask why, surely? Coming here to ask people making other recommendations feels a bit strange.
I suspect there are no really 'bad' printers out there, insofar as on day one they'll all give good results. How they last from there will vary, probably by individual unit as well as usage etc. Some interesting reading here, albeit somewhat inconclusive, about the Canon's '9600 DPI': https://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/53851/how-can-a-print-have-a-resolution-of-9600-x-2400-dpi.
I have a Canon MG3650, £30 from argos, replaced the MG2650 £20 from Wilko.
Yes it has a sponge.
I have yet to fill a sponge up. If you do the other side of 100 pages a week for a few years you might.
Much more likely is wearing/drying out of the head.
Mine does 1200 x 600, and I can get 0.2 mm legiblle height on white decal paper.
As far as "only on White glossy photo paper" just tell it that is what you are using and put injet decal paper in it.
It will dump a bundle of ink on it, nice & vibrant, just be careful and give it a couple of hours to dry, then spray, jobs a good 'un.
As ever, it works for me, I use it for Lining.
Your mileage may vary.
Get a cheap one, experiment with decal papers, they are not all created equally.
Alan
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/133/2095-200623225511.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=133176)
QuoteApologies I feel a bit beligerent, just find it a bit odd that you keep asking for advice on specific machines that no one has mentioned, but ignoring what mulitple people are saying.
Okay, yes, I think you are a bit over the top but I am okay with that as I want the best, and do appreciate your help.
However, your bit about not taking what people are saying, well, that's just plain wrong if you re-read the thread. I asked about experiences with Canon printers and others shared that bit about the sponge collecting unused ink that eventually fills up, leaving the printer dead. There was another suggestion about Samsung printers, but then was told they are not all part of HP...so a bit of a dead end.
So yes, I am listening but I am trying my best to navigate what is out there and what can do the job. A few people have made positive comments about Epson - which is a brand I have absolutely no experience with.
As for the laser v inkjet debate...at first I was all for getting a color laser, and even suggested a Lexmark model...only for others to say Lexmark isn't any good...okay, perhaps I just got lucky with my Lexmark (which up until recently has outperformed my HP color printers). I also don't like inkjets for the same reason others have commented, the ink dries out if you don't use them enough. And cartridges aren't cheap. I have looked at the Eco Tank type printers but then you have the question of quality of the color...which from all reviews isn't that good.
For me and what I want to do, it really is a matter of achieving the best possible resolution and color correctness, and from all I have researched thus far, that would have to be an inkjet. Now I get this doesn't make sense, as lasers are supposed to be so much sharper. Yet, when I am comparing a 600 or 1200 dpi color laser to an inkjet that can produce 4200 or 9600 dpi, well, that appears to be a no-brainer.
Finally, thanks so much for sharing those OO gauge photos of the decals up close, as that has really helped. Can you please tell me what printer you are using to make those decals?
Thanks Alan, those do look sharp...much sharper then I would have thought from just 1200x600 dpi....
In your experience with Canon printers, is there any issue with the colors being accurate?
Also, you mentioned decal paper, and that is my next topic...so please do share any recommendations. I have tried a few decal papers over the years and with mixed results. I had come across a decal company that made inkjet decals using a reverse printing method, where you essentially wet and place the image on the model, pat down, and remove the paper. They used a type of Avery decal paper but I am not sure which one...and sadly the guy who makes them doesn't share.
This might help https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/how-to-use-our-transfers/ (https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/how-to-use-our-transfers/)
I have been told it might be some sort of transfer decal paper, like one uses to make iron-on transfers or tatoos...but still haven't figured out which type of Avery paper it is, and searching through the Avery product list is a bit daunting.
Doc
Those are the base images, the forum distorts them and its a jpg.
They are sized to fit a UM City Of Truro, printed 18 months ago and still not fixed..........................
I have used the boiler lining on a couple of dean goods as an experiment and they look quite good.
Need to be printed on white decal paper otherwise the orange disappears.
I use Mr Decal paper and tell the printer to go High Quality Photo glossy paper.
It prints on the A4 in the top left hand corner.
It works for me but I'm a cheapskate. And it looks good from 2ft, the closest it will be, better but still detectable the further away you are. (Bit like me :)
If anyone wants the artwork correctly sized at 300dpi PM me with email addres and I will email it. Free.
Alan
It's "horses for courses" with me... For photos, I've an Epson 870 5-colour inkjet. Now c 20 years old, still going strong and its yet to be equalled for the subtlety of natural tones the 5-colours can give.
For text documents and for a few decals, I now use a Samsung Laser for the sharpness and depth of colour.
As an aside, For both photos and decals, I've found that the paper is as much a factor as the printer in the quality of the final product. The best decal papers I found were those supplied by "Crafty Computer Paper" (sadly no longer in business, though the web address lives on and offers reviews of decal papers among other craft products!)
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 20, 2023, 11:02:12 PM
QuoteApologies I feel a bit beligerent, just find it a bit odd that you keep asking for advice on specific machines that no one has mentioned, but ignoring what mulitple people are saying.
For me and what I want to do, it really is a matter of achieving the best possible resolution and color correctness, and from all I have researched thus far, that would have to be an inkjet. Now I get this doesn't make sense, as lasers are supposed to be so much sharper. Yet, when I am comparing a 600 or 1200 dpi color laser to an inkjet that can produce 4200 or 9600 dpi, well, that appears to be a no-brainer.
Finally, thanks so much for sharing those OO gauge photos of the decals up close, as that has really helped. Can you please tell me what printer you are using to make those decals?
Yeah, it is kinda weird - hence my going off and doing some reading, as 9600dpi seems utterly incredible, and if you read that Stack Exchange link it appears to be that it's not quite true. I've added some more pictures of the decals I've printed to the Google link, they're mainly N gauge. There's a good example of the limitation too on the N gauge JGA here:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaXp-i1oEo9BZLsfk1wm_Z1qOBP6dJvtqyRMLSCHDAciUA2NhTpesEDGoNtbfaj-JNYqa9bYom00bIo70dH_KvPYveqG73w2qg7SkjA0IS2S1gNZ9_R4aBsS06b7o4QHIutamEeqyONmIRGPAIprEzhUJQ=w678-h903-s-no?authuser=0)
I could almost certainly make this better by making it larger and pasting as an image before shrinking. Notice how much crisper the handbrake gradient sign is. Obviously all of this means the printer isn't actually the limiting factor. In fact now I've looked at that photo I'll probably do that! ;D
I also use Mr Decal Paper papers, my biggest criticism is that the blue backed stuff (which I use for white toner) changed to a much better dark tone, and then changed back, and I didn't get a repsonse on when/if he'd get the other stuff in again!
So perhaps this might help, as this is the sorta item I am looking to print and retain print quality. FYI, this is for a 28mm 1/56 scale. Given the detail, this is why I am after good resolution.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/133/7313-210623003359.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=133178)
So this was an earlier B&W quick test print, to make sure I had the size of the item correct to what it would be attached to. The actual physical size of the item is around 5 x 6mm.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/133/7313-210623003445.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=133179)
FYI, I searched and found that 'Stack Exchange' topic on dpi, and that was interesting. I continue to learn...perhaps too much :dunce:
Quote from: njee20 on June 21, 2023, 12:16:31 AM
...Notice how much crisper the handbrake gradient sign is. ...
Nick, could you please explain what the cause of the difference is there? Were all those different parts printed at the same time on the same system or is that purely an artefact of the image preparation work done before printing? I've seen this sort of effect before, when scaling bitmaps vs vector imagery.
Ross.
On the subject of paper:
When I was creating decals regularly with my Microdry printer a decade or more ago I used Tango Papa decal paper as recommended by the ALPS user groups. I also used Microscale decal paper. Both types are really thin film water-slide papers designed for laser printers rather than inkjets. I still have sheets of both brands in my folder and they're both still perfectly usable.
Tango Papa is still going by the look of it.
https://www.tangopapadecals.com/paper.html (https://www.tangopapadecals.com/paper.html)
Instructions for Microscale Trim Film paper, note it says run through laser printers on "transparency" setting and it's not good for inkjets.
https://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/graphics/Instructions/TrimFilminstr.pdf (https://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/graphics/Instructions/TrimFilminstr.pdf)
Quote from: RBTKraisee on June 21, 2023, 01:24:17 AM
Quote from: njee20 on June 21, 2023, 12:16:31 AM
...Notice how much crisper the handbrake gradient sign is. ...
Nick, could you please explain what the cause of the difference is there? Were all those different parts printed at the same time on the same system or is that purely an artefact of the image preparation work done before printing? I've seen this sort of effect before, when scaling bitmaps vs vector imagery.
Ross.
Yeah that whole decal is printed as one. It's excatly you say - it's a (poorly) scaled bitmap versus a vector image. Essentially with the text I usually get it all to look right at a font size which is legible, and then convert to an image and scale to suit. That can give these results, because it's a scaled image. You can get better results by either being more intelligent with the image scaling, or better still sticking with actual text on things like the data labels. That's a lot more time consuming though, because whilst the difference between 24 and 25pt is tiny, obviously between 1 and 2pt it's huge, and that means you're compromised on how much you can fine tune the elements. Turns out those labels are about 1.7pt though, condensed 0.1pt on the spacing, as I've just done them 'properly'. The thinnest lines you can get on the table and what not is 0.25pt though, which I suspect will look too heavy, I'll try later! The fuzzy table is 2.2mm high, so my appetite to make it much better is limited! ;D
I've found I get better results, especially with text, by designing at a larger size and scaling down at the printing stage. Always use a scale factor of 2n though i.e. 2x/ 4x / 8x / 16x etc
Yeah that makes sense. I always cram as much as I can onto a sheet, but I ought set my sizing to be 4x A4 or something so I can just scale to 25%.
Re-did some of the decals, actually worked well.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaXg91YkCLGIGYntezTFKRf08T_dNARlTBswWVfLDO_xoAo-mOZ7L4bJCTH1KV15Oq4HFV-OPYezjB5g4l4SDE9nGyIOHPqwCAPo_IFX3H0i1BGdUpVi79DNiK9Sk8RiMpfxLB0uj_0SSzUgJIUwzufDKA=w416-h312-s-no?authuser=0)
Posting this mainly to show the limitation of a laser though with the dot dithering, which is oddly visible on the Tarmac logo. I also printed your 'shields'. Excuse the light, they're in the shadow of my phone - but gives you a benchmark to compare to your existing printer. Obviously this is just on ordinary paper (and standard quality).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaXL3BhdpFMTlkToqMsVj6aEawXJdYfkpGwCiIt6LqRVMDYhM380WZ7TeMkvPJaTpF7XfCLNTT--b9PAbU-RHNc2kXi1FAlr5YBl4bzwdA3lH_3SefzgmA8qpGHFraWSVGBWV8Fuhyoz9RDEW5WdFHsyaQ=w637-h312-s-no?authuser=0)
So Njee20, what exactly did you print those French Sabretaches on (printer type)?
My test print on my current faulty Lexmark X9575 is actually a lot better than what you have shown. Yet, this is all good info to have. So thanks for sharing.
Quote from: njee20 on June 21, 2023, 12:57:22 PM
Quote from: RBTKraisee on June 21, 2023, 01:24:17 AM
Quote from: njee20 on June 21, 2023, 12:16:31 AM
...Notice how much crisper the handbrake gradient sign is. ...
Nick, could you please explain what the cause of the difference is there? Were all those different parts printed at the same time on the same system or is that purely an artefact of the image preparation work done before printing? I've seen this sort of effect before, when scaling bitmaps vs vector imagery.
Ross.
Yeah that whole decal is printed as one. It's excatly you say - it's a (poorly) scaled bitmap versus a vector image. Essentially with the text I usually get it all to look right at a font size which is legible, and then convert to an image and scale to suit. That can give these results, because it's a scaled image. You can get better results by either being more intelligent with the image scaling, or better still sticking with actual text on things like the data labels. That's a lot more time consuming though, because whilst the difference between 24 and 25pt is tiny, obviously between 1 and 2pt it's huge, and that means you're compromised on how much you can fine tune the elements. Turns out those labels are about 1.7pt though, condensed 0.1pt on the spacing, as I've just done them 'properly'. The thinnest lines you can get on the table and what not is 0.25pt though, which I suspect will look too heavy, I'll try later! The fuzzy table is 2.2mm high, so my appetite to make it much better is limited! ;D
It's not the scaling that causes the issue but the type of image file you are using and scaling. Bitmaps, jpegs etc are composed of dots in the same way the printer makes an image out of millions of dots of coloured ink. A vector graphic is made up of lines and equations and other clever stuff.
All that means a vector graphic is still crisp when you zoom in (I can zoom-in up to 1 million percent in Affinity Designer :D), it can be scaled down infinitely and definitely to a size that even the highest quality printer couldn't replicate. You can also convert text in a vector image to curves, which essentially makes them graphics objects just like the lines that make up the rest of the image and you don't have to worry about the font changing unexpectedly which is often helpful if you send things to print.
I could knock one up for you quickly if you fancy seeing if the difference is worth it.
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 21, 2023, 04:19:50 PM
So Njee20, what exactly did you print those French Sabretaches on (printer type)?
My test print on my current faulty Lexmark X9575 is actually a lot better than what you have shown. Yet, this is all good info to have. So thanks for sharing.
HP MFP M177FW laser. Suggests your thoughts may be correct about inkjet, I will say they do look darker in the photo versus IRL, but I can't get a closeup without a better light to hand. I think it's 600dpi by default.
Thanks for confirming all that!
As for the debate of inkjet vs laser, I've been looking at this question for some time, even before the recent spate of posts in this thread, so I'm thoroughly interested in what everyone has to say.
I can get a new colour laser with 600x600 resolution for about $300. But to achieve 1200x1200 on a colour laser would cost me about $750. Unfortunately, with all my recent expenses that's well beyond my reach for this year.
The practical solution is that a Canon Pixma 3620 inkjet can be had new for $60. It's supposed to have 4800x1200 resolution, and while that's likely to be arguable, it isn't likely to be any worse than the laser. I do note that getting a white ink cartridge for it does appear to be difficult, if not impossible - there are Chinese suppliers who say they do, but... Anyway, there are loads of people out there who swear by them as a great solution for water-slide transfers.
Maybe the 1200x1200 laser could ultimately do a better job. But maybe not. The jury's verdict seems far from unanimous. But at more than 12 times the cost of the inkjet, I sure see the appeal of going for the cheaper option. Even if it ultimately doesn't do what you want, you can still sell in on ebay and you won't have lost much at all.
Ross.
Well according to my research, these inkjets boast the following resolution:
Epson Photo Expression 5760 x 1440 using 6 cartridges/inks
Canon Pixma MG3650 (as mentioned) 4800 x 1200 with two ink cartridges: B&W and color
Canon Pixma iX6850 9600 x 2400 with 5 cartridges/inks
Epson WF-7830 or 40 4800 x 2400 with 4 ink cartridges
Quote from: NScaleNotes on June 21, 2023, 04:26:44 PM
I could knock one up for you quickly if you fancy seeing if the difference is worth it.
Cheers for the offer, it's mainly apathy on my part I think, I have used some vector graphics software for some of the artwork, I just find Powerpoint so much quicker for laying elements out. Better the devil you know. Obviously now I've posted those photos it's made me think I must do them better! ;D
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 21, 2023, 10:22:52 PM
Well according to my research, these inkjets boast the following resolution:
Epson Photo Expression 5760 x 1440 using 6 cartridges/inks
Canon Pixma MG3650 (as mentioned) 4800 x 1200 with two ink cartridges: B&W and color
Canon Pixma iX6850 9600 x 2400 with 5 cartridges/inks
Epson WF-7830 or 40 4800 x 2400 with 4 ink cartridges
Be great to see a print on each of those! I'm still dubious about the true resolution, it's intriguing they're all different aspect ratios, with fewer lines than horizontal dots.
QuoteBe great to see a print on each of those!
Well I am pretty sure my budget won't allow me to buy one of each to test that out... :smiley-laughing: That said, still looking to see what is best for my needs.
Sadly in the old days - yes, I am dating myself - one could go into one of these big computer superstores that had all these printers and test them out. However, that is a distant memory...
Haha, yes, more a conceptual comment than actually suggesting you buy one of each! I do wonder with UV printing and what not where we'll end up on this. That's producing some interesting results for people like Rainbow Railways, but at a noticeably lower resolution even than my decals, so far more coarse than you'd be after. ALPS/Microdry printers have all but gone. with the proliferation of 3D printing surely a better method of finishing them is out there!
The print resolution and final results very much depend on the paper used too. Often an inkjet printer that's designed primarily for super high resolution prints on photo paper will be worse at printing on 'normal' papers (or unusual ones such as decal paper) than a more ordinary one.
QuoteThe print resolution and final results very much depend on the paper used too. Often an inkjet printer that's designed primarily for super high resolution prints on photo paper will be worse at printing on 'normal' papers (or unusual ones such as decal paper) than a more ordinary one.
Yes, very much aware of this...and reviews on some of the 'photo' printers suggest this might be a problem for decal paper.
Quote from: njee20 on June 21, 2023, 10:45:09 PM
I'm still dubious about the true resolution, it's intriguing they're all different aspect ratios, with fewer lines than horizontal dots.
Don't even go there, it's a rabbit hole of hardware technology, ink drop sizes/patterns and misused terms from the printing industry. :confused1:
Yeah, that was rather my interpretation, I filed it in "don't really need to know" bucket! ;D
Well following further research I finally bought a new color printer...and the winner is:
Epson Expression Photo XP-8700
6 ink cartridges - Black, Cyan, Light Cyan, Yellow, Magenta, Light Magenta
Resolution at 5,760 x 1,440 DPI
1.5 pl, with Variable-Sized Droplet Technology) per nozzle...and doesn't that open up a can of worms! :angel:
More info here: https://www.epson.co.uk/en_GB/products/printers/inkjet/consumer/expression-photo-xp-8700/p/32270 (https://www.epson.co.uk/en_GB/products/printers/inkjet/consumer/expression-photo-xp-8700/p/32270)
Cost: £103.97
I will try it out and if it doesn't work, well, back to Amazon! :D However, hopefully it will do a great job.
My sincere thanks to everyone who offered their thoughts on this, as it was indeed really helpful and informative. I have never bought an Epson product before, so a first time for everything. Of course, I will post up some photos of what this new gizmo can do...again, hoping for the best! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Well, even if it turns out not so good for decals I'm sure it'll still do lovely glossy photos and other document printing.
I had Epson printers way back in the 70s and 80s, they were a "go to" brand then. The first one was a wide carriage dot matrix printer that could use the same continuous tractor-feed multi-part paper we had at work. Later I had one of their colour inkjets which I ran alongside a simple Samsung mono laser for a while, as the laser was more economical for just knocking out letters and scanned copies etc.
QuoteWell, even if it turns out not so good for decals I'm sure it'll still do lovely glossy photos and other document printing.
Well that's positive...I guess... :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:
Do a test print every few days to keep nozzles clear perhaps?
So an update is in order. Printer arrived from Amazon last week and I got it out of the box and set-up....but wait, it wouldn't set-up....no matter what I did the WiFi wouldn't connect and even with a USB plug in the back none of my computers would recognize it. Okay, not to be deterred from printing something out, I put some materials on a USB stick and plugged it in the front of the printer. The joy kept going, as the printer ONLY recognized JPEG images and none of the Word docs. Still not giving up, I tried a few test prints. I wanted to see how the six color cartridges would deliver the 5760x1440 dpi prints. But wait, it really didn't. I mean, I tried a lot of settings but the output while clearer than my old Lexmark X9575 was sharper the colors were dull. I played around with the saturation levels but wasn't able to get it to deliver what was needed. :thumbsdown:
Given all that transpired, I ended up repacking the printer and it will be returned to Amazon tomorrow. The WiFI doesn't work....the USB connection doesn't work...the printer has a number of limitations with what you can actually print without borders (and if you don't do that, then the printer automatically rescales your image to a smaller one to accommodate for the border)....and the colors are rather dull and lifeless, despite trying with a number of different paper types, including photo paper. In regards to photo paper, that prints best but still any lines are jagged and not clear at all. Another point of note, the inks tend to 'over saturate' and that doesn't look good; surprising as when doing decals one usually wants more ink on the page. :(
As I also bought some spare printer cartridges, they all go back too (they were never opened).
So all in all not a good experience...but I am still not giving in...I will go back to the drawing board. :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:
So still open to other suggestions and printer recommendations....
As the saying goes, if first you don't succeed, try, try and try again! Surely there must be a good printer out there that won't break the bank....
That's a shame. Some thoughts:
Were you trying to use the Wifi as a peer-to-peer with your computer, or trying to get it to join your house WiFi? Did it need security (WPA or whatever?) Did it find your Wifi SID and show up on your router as a connection attempt?
Did USB on your computer say unrecognised device - maybe it needed drivers installing first?
I wouldn't expect Word docs to print via the USB stick port, you need Word to render the document through a printer driver to print it.
Was the jpeg photo high enough resolution and quality settings? I'd have tried a TIF image which has less compression.
Anyway, clearly it wasn't for you for various reasons :(
QuoteWere you trying to use the Wifi as a peer-to-peer with your computer, or trying to get it to join your house WiFi? Did it need security (WPA or whatever?) Did it find your Wifi SID and show up on your router as a connection attempt?
Did USB on your computer say unrecognised device - maybe it needed drivers installing first?
We literally tried everything. The drivers installed, but could not get any of our computers in the house to recognize the printer. Tried every possible route....still nothing. I do recall a lot of similar comments on the reviews that the WiFi set-up was a real pain but was hoping this was just a one-off.
Also, the alignment of the cartridges was a rather different approach...it prints a page and then asks you to look at each row and then choose which is the best from a row of 7, then input that into the printer. Regardless, it shouldn't be printing jagged lines....even my old Lexmark doesn't do that.
As I said, the detail was slightly better on photo paper but not nearly what it needs to be....or I want it to be.
As for settings, unless you are using glossy photopaper and high/best quality, it doesn't let you do borderless...which doesn't make sense. So any normal prints resized the JPEG to accommodate for the border area.
In terms of images, I tried simple JPEGs and SVG ones....and still jagged and broken lines.
QuoteAnyway, clearly it wasn't for you for various reasons :(
So either I got a lemon (possible) or I am the lemon (also possible...but I am not that useless....where am I, where's my ice cream....)
Surely you can define whether or not it resizes images in whatever application you're printing from? I can see that it not doing borderless printing is a pain though.
Frustrating experience.
Yes, it was strange. You can only print borderless (full scale images that I had) using certain settings, notably photo paper ones. Otherwise, I found it adjusting the scale of the images to accommodate the border. I would like to hope that if I got the Epson WiFi/USB connection working that on my computer I could bypass all this. Yet, I could only get it to print via a USB stick, and the options were limited. It literally wouldn't let you print borderless on certain papers and quality choices.
I think the previous view expressed that these 'photo printers' are just for photos using photopaper may be correct.
I will keep looking...I am determined to find something that will make it work. :D
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
The problem with doing transfers on a home printer (definitely laser, not sure about inkjet) is that they don't have the colour depth of commercial transfers which are screen-printed using paint. Therefore some colour combinations of transfer and underlying paint just won't work.
I promised to report on my efforts with an Envy 5530 inkjet printer. The loco numbers came out perfectly on a white background and looked OK under the magnifying glass. Unfortunately, as chrism point out, they don't have the depth of colour required and are practically invisible on a black background. The transfers were printed at "best quality", which I suspect is 300 dpi x 600 dpi. Maybe with a different printer and a higher dpi there will be better results.
Peter
Quote from: Alcazar on July 01, 2023, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
The problem with doing transfers on a home printer (definitely laser, not sure about inkjet) is that they don't have the colour depth of commercial transfers which are screen-printed using paint. Therefore some colour combinations of transfer and underlying paint just won't work.
I promised to report on my efforts with an Envy 5530 inkjet printer. The loco numbers came out perfectly on a white background and looked OK under the magnifying glass. Unfortunately, as chrism point out, they don't have the depth of colour required and are practically invisible on a black background. The transfers were printed at "best quality", which I suspect is 300 dpi x 600 dpi. Maybe with a different printer and a higher dpi there will be better results.
I doubt you will get better results, I'm afraid.
General-purpose printers and inks/toners are designed for use on white paper and, with the exception of black, the resultant colours seen are reliant on light passing through and being reflected back off the white paper through the print.
Commercially produced transfers are, I'm pretty sure, produced by screen printing (or a similar process) using paint as the "ink", which doesn't rely on the light passing through it to render the colour depth.
With my ancient Alps printer there were two flavours of white cartridge: White and Opaque White. Funnily enough the opaque cartridge actually renders thinner and more transparent than the other.
One trick is to print the white decals twice as two separate items and overlay on on the other to increase the density. Not a problem when you're using very thin carrier film as I do, but start to show up on the model rather more with the thicker sheets used with most inkjet printers. Indeed with the Alps some of the "recipes" to achieve solid colours rather than dithered involve multiple layers of spot colour.
So following A Cooks advice, I picked up one of these cheap Canon MG3650 printers from Argos....35 quid. So got it out of the box and after a lot of time think it is now set-up properly (why don't they make the Wifi connections easier???). In any event, it is actually a descent printer. It doesn't provide the detail I am after but it is pretty darn good in terms of resolution. I am concerned that the colors are slightly off, notably the red but will have to play around with that.
So while I am still looking for a better printer, this new Canon MG3650 will help with test prints and such. So thanks again A Cook! :beers:
If anyone else has some good experience with other color printers suitable for the projects I want to do, please don't hesitate to join this chat and/or IM me. :claphappy:
Hi Doc
Just received some Mr Decal paper.
Using the white paper:
Told the printer it was 5"x7" photo paper glossy II set high quality and left the colour settings as is. (the previous MG 2850 had a checkbox for vivid photo, which was quite handy).
Result is cracking using the 600 x 600 dpi bitmap, just given a waft of Wilko clear sealer and does look good, even under magnification.
Alan
@Doc Pye So it has been a while since your last update and I'm curious what's the latest on your decal adventures?
Ross.
Hi Ross,
Well test prints were quite good. I have been searching for 'better' ways to make decals, and contacted a few decal producers (cottage industry types), but so far the DIY approach seems best. Yet, I haven't given up on my search for a better quality print.
All that said, the artwork on my current project was started with an artist in Russia, and given all the ongoing issues (sanctions and such), this has greatly delayed the project. I am still hopeful of getting all the artwork done but it has dragged on...
Whenever I get more info I will of course share it hear. I really appreciate all the input from members who have been there and done that, as it was very helpful in getting me this far.
As the saying goes, whatever doesn't kill you, will make you stronger! :laugh3:
Being in the states, the shipping on transfers from places like Fox costs more than the transfers themselves, so a cheaper option has been of great interest to me.
Ghost White Toner is probably the best solution for printing them at home, but at a starting price of nearly a grand for the printer, toner and paper! That's way too much just for a few pages of decals!
Gareth
@thebrighton did just confirm, on his thread (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?msg=809697), that his Canon inkjet can produce some remarkably good results, so I'm very interested to see what you can find that avoids breaking the bank.
And white ink seems to be the biggest piece of the puzzle.
Ross.
Keep an eye out for Ghost Toner on eBay, then buy a printer to suit. That's how I got mine, paid about £200 all in. Admittedly i was lucky that there was both a toner and a printer for sale at the same time (from different sellers). Definitely not a faultless solution, but probably the most accessible. That said, I'd also actually urge you to consider how much white printing you actually need to do. Of course 'intensity patches' are also a factor here for printing light colour decals over dark colours.
I probably said this somewhere in the thread, but what drove me to make my own was working with a noted producer on some custom decals. The process was insanely frustrating and protracted, with me providing artwork and him needing to 'rebalance' all the colours, that being a never ending cycle of posting samples back and forth. Yes he had the printer to create lovely detailed decals, but if the colours was awful then it seemed moot!
So here's the stuff I use to create decals, bear in mind this is 20 year old tech :)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923101609.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135887)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923101758.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135888)
An example set of decals. The small print is legible, just not in this poor photo :(
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923102044.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135889)
The green ASF needed white ink for some of the text and for backing the yellow and red.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/135/medium_5885-260923103103.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=135890)
The other option Ross is to simply outsource the white printing to someone who has the necessary set-up to do it. That's what I am thinking, as while I will need to print white it won't be worth investing in a Ghost Cartridge and Printer.
Speaking of printers, the Canon MG3650 printer works great, it very inexpensive, and provides sharp detail...not perfect but a really good color printer. I still love my old Lexmark 9575 but it sadly suffers from problems of missing print lines occasionally....they definitely don't make printers to last long!
Goes without saying I'm happy printing white stuff for folks. I'm not interested in profiting hugely, just happy offering the technology as its sat there.
I'm very envious of
@ntpntpntp's ALPS printer though, great results.
Jeez, I just found a website out there where one lady got her Ghost White Toner and printer bundle in 2021 for $400. Now, just two years later, their lowest cost bundle is $900!
225% increase in 24 months? That's totally ridiculous.
Ross.
If you can, design out the white, the brighton uses clear transfers on white background, i.e. reverse the colours and print a block of body colour with transparent lettering.
I think this is how Robbies Rolling Stock transfers work.
Alan
Quote from: RBTKraisee on September 27, 2023, 12:20:10 AMJeez, I just found a website out there where one lady got her Ghost White Toner and printer bundle in 2021 for $400. Now, just two years later, their lowest cost bundle is $900!
225% increase in 24 months? That's totally ridiculous.
Ross.
I know you love the DIY but you could just get these guys to print what you need: https://fsdecals.com/ (https://fsdecals.com/)
I'd been planning to get something printed there myself. So not actually used them myself yet but it looks like they have a similar setup to other laser-printer based companies.
Another North American (Canada) option is: https://www.pdc.ca/rr/custom_decals/ (https://www.pdc.ca/rr/custom_decals/)
I've had some decals printed by Bill in the past and it really is top notch printing.
You'd have to be printing a lot of decals before it became cheaper to buy your own setup plus you still get the work of producing the vector graphics.
Quote from: RBTKraisee on September 27, 2023, 12:20:10 AMJeez, I just found a website out there where one lady got her Ghost White Toner and printer bundle in 2021 for $400. Now, just two years later, their lowest cost bundle is $900!
225% increase in 24 months? That's totally ridiculous.
Ross.
They weren't that cheap ordinarily, not even close. Back in 2021 the cheapest they listed that I can see is €599, and I can now see bundles for £699, so yes a fairly large increase, but not on the same scale. Personally for me I wouldn't pay anything approaching that, unless you foresee creating pages and pages of decals. I personally doubt I've printed more than 20 pages in 3 years. I'd be minded to agree with NScaleNotes, outsourcing it is probably just as easy.
Quote from: acook on September 27, 2023, 01:38:08 PMIf you can, design out the white, the brighton uses clear transfers on white background, i.e. reverse the colours and print a block of body colour with transparent lettering.
I think this is how Robbies Rolling Stock transfers work.
Alan
I've never found that particularly satisfactory, but YMMV.
Quote from: NScaleNotes on September 27, 2023, 03:12:42 PMYou'd have to be printing a lot of decals before it became cheaper to buy your own setup [compared to having them printed by someone] plus you still get the work of producing the vector graphics.
This is of course very true.
For me it was a case of I wanted to have a go at creating specific decals for a project, and 20 years ago the ALPS Microdry technology printers were the best option for home hobbyists. My Citizen Printiva printer cost me something like £70 from ebay even back then, second-hand (actually from a hospital according to the label that was stuck to it!) As it's not the top-end printer version I have to fool it into printing white by labelling the cartridge as silver (shiny sticky label and insulation tape to create the correct bar-code!) and make sure I use the correct printer driver settings (hence old Windows ME on the pc). Same if I want to use Roland RGB colour cartridges (another brand which used the ALPS tech for a couple of printers).
I don't produce many decals so my gear probably never will pay back the original investment, but when I want something I can design and print in an hour or so. It's fiddly old tech but it works (for now) and it is very satisfying to create something myself :)