Seems Dapol has launched a "Black label" premium brand in OO. First (?) model to get the Black Label brand (and price) is a OO scale GWR Q13 Inspection Saloon (presumably inspired because the Revolution saloon Caroline was selling well in OO).
So I wondered, what current Dapol N products might qualify for Black Label branding in the future?
Class 50
Class 68
Maunsell coaches, potentially.
I can't think of any steam locos that would qualify.
Certainly not the Yeoman hoppers either.
Any thoughts?
Bob
Dapol's first "Black Label" model was a OO Gauge LNER A4 in 2016.
It was a DCC sound fitted model with detailed diecast body and chassis with working (controllable) lamps fitted, together with sprung wheels, and a synchronised smoke generator.
They're using the "Black Label" branding to indicate models with extra details - I can't think of a single N Gauge model in their range at the moment that I'd say fits the bill.
Steven B
good idea to make gwr inspection saloon I think.
people are into all the interior details now - copying rapidio and others in this regard.
tim
Does the Black Label brand exist to persuade people into spending £150 on a coach?
At that price I hope it lives up to expectations and doesnt turn out to warrant a "Brown Label" branding :D
I'm guessing the brand name came from when whichever VP announced the plan, someone at the back said to his mate, "I bet he drinks Carling Black Label" ;)
Well we have had Blue Riband (Farish) which was much better than China production of original Poole Farish. Now there is no Poole Farish in production other than some wagon types the brand seems to have been forgotten in terms of marketing push, although it is still retained as it does help identify secondhand models that are definitely not Blue Riband.
From Dapol we had Platinum introduced at the start of the Dave Jones era, and similarly, now that the tank engines are being re-engineered (notice I didn't say better engineered), and we have second generation diesel locos with better electronics and better motor drives, I can see no reason for that brand to be continued either.
In all honesty, I don't see either of the two main manufacturers able to respond to the new pretenders (EFE, Revolution, Rapido and Sonic) by upping their game, although at the moment we are not seeing the step change in quality we saw happen in the Farish stable when Dapol started in N in 2005. It seems harder to show leaps of progression now, unless it is in DCC features, for example.
Just my thoughts
Bob
Quote from: Paul J on June 01, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
Does the Black Label brand exist to persuade people into spending £150 on a coach?
I hope so. :) The idea is to produce a really high-end vehicle with lighting, fully painted interior and DCC options, with a price point to reflect the extra detail. Hopefully this will pave the way for more interesting vehicles to appear (and hopefully get the shrink-ray treatment).
Being a DC dinosaur who will never go to DCC I have absolutely no interest in lighting in stock (and even less in sound) and my models are bought to run on a layout – not to gaze lovingly at an interior or fully detailed underframe.
The manufacturers can bring out whatever coloured label they like as long as the usual standard is kept alive at the 'normal' price and these 'superdetailed' thingies are sold at a price I'll never pay in my life.
I really don't know who comes up with this malarkey but believe their time could be better spent getting the quality of every release right
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: Paul J on June 01, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
Does the Black Label brand exist to persuade people into spending £150 on a coach?
I hope so. :) The idea is to produce a really high-end vehicle with lighting, fully painted interior and DCC options, with a price point to reflect the extra detail. Hopefully this will pave the way for more interesting vehicles to appear (and hopefully get the shrink-ray treatment).
I wish you luck, Adam, and I think you will need it. It might work in OO but I doubt it will work in N. The only reason I bought Caroline from Revolution is that I wanted that particular coach. I didn't want it to come all singing all dancing. I'm NOT investing in the Rapido Dynamometer Car. I have enjoyed my Rapido class 28s, and EFE class 17s even though they are not my regional preference. I'm looking forward to Sonic's large prairie. I've almost given up all hope on Dapol either doing the high window Maunsells in BR Green, or the BoB.
As Mick @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) says, I want things that I want to model, not to gloat over. I'd be much happier if Dapol (or indeed anyone) did an SR 4-6-0, for example, but you chaps at Dapol have been milking your existing good sellers and not making anything truly new in N for years now, apart from class 59 (which is head to head with Revolution), matching hoppers (which suffered from poor QA), and a revamped M7 (which admittedly has a lovely body when its cab roof fits properly, but which has a definite nose-down chassis design).
How long do we have to be patient and uncomplaining, when you put most of your development into OO and O?
Bob
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 03:54:36 PM
Being a DC dinosaur who will never go to DCC I have absolutely no interest in lighting in stock (and even less in sound) and my models are bought to run on a layout – not to gaze lovingly at an interior or fully detailed underframe.
My sentiments also
Quote from: Bob G on June 01, 2023, 04:18:22 PM
I want things that I want to model, not to gloat over. I'd be much happier if Dapol (or indeed anyone) did an SR 4-6-0
Bob
Your singing my tune Bob
Hi Bob - please be assured that we have an awful lot of N Gauge releases under development, some have already been announced but most are still hush-hush.
Before anyone asks, that is not a clue - we are not doing the LNER Hush-Hush.
Ha ha ha. Good one.
If they are bringing out a premium brand for N gauge I sure hope QC improves, details missing, livery errors, questionable shape of bodies, electronics that actually hold up over time (BAT54C diodes anyone?).
No-one has said that Dapol are bringing out a premium brand in N. This thread starts with a question of "if they did like they have in 00, what would be in it?"
I guess you missed the first word in my post, just to clarify it was "If" not "when"
No plans at present for a premium brand in N but perhaps one day...
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 08:27:01 PM
No plans at present for a premium brand in N but perhaps one day...
Now that really is leading with your chin, Adam :hmmm: ;)
It's open to some eejit saying "If you plan to be a premium brand it suggests you don't consider yourselves one" which then leads to "Who do you think is the premium brand in N at present?"
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 08:31:41 PM
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 08:27:01 PM
No plans at present for a premium brand in N but perhaps one day...
Now that really is leading with your chin, Adam :hmmm: ;)
It's open to some eejit saying "If you plan to be a premium brand it suggests you don't consider yourselves one" which then leads to "Who do you think is the premium brand in N at present?"
Look, I am just trying to provide helpful answers as best I can. If certain members seem intent on running Dapol down, deserved or not, then I shall go elsewhere.
Well I guess the perception of Dapol would help if your products were not broken upon arrival... (M7, Yeoman hoppers...) or over ten years late (BoB...)
OK some products are great (50s, 68s, even 9Fs and Britannias) but... you need to maintain that standard. It's no wonder some folk are grizzly.
Bob
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 08:44:44 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 08:31:41 PM
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 08:27:01 PM
No plans at present for a premium brand in N but perhaps one day...
Now that really is leading with your chin, Adam :hmmm: ;)
It's open to some eejit saying "If you plan to be a premium brand it suggests you don't consider yourselves one" which then leads to "Who do you think is the premium brand in N at present?"
Look, I am just trying to provide helpful answers as best I can. If certain members seem intent on running Dapol down, deserved or not, then I shall go elsewhere.
It was tongue in cheek - hence the winking emoji
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 09:09:09 PM
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 08:44:44 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 08:31:41 PM
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 08:27:01 PM
No plans at present for a premium brand in N but perhaps one day...
Now that really is leading with your chin, Adam :hmmm: ;)
It's open to some eejit saying "If you plan to be a premium brand it suggests you don't consider yourselves one" which then leads to "Who do you think is the premium brand in N at present?"
Look, I am just trying to provide helpful answers as best I can. If certain members seem intent on running Dapol down, deserved or not, then I shall go elsewhere.
It was tongue in cheek - hence the winking emoji
And I thought I was about to be moderated... :no: ;)
I won't, and can't, moderate anyone expressing an opinion unless it breaks forum rules e.g. mentions politics and religion etc..
Quote from: Bob G on June 01, 2023, 09:07:53 PM
Well I guess the perception of Dapol would help if your products were not broken upon arrival... (M7, Yeoman hoppers...) or over ten years late (BoB...)
OK some products are great (50s, 68s, even 9Fs and Britannias) but... you need to maintain that standard. It's no wonder some folk are grizzly.
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on June 01, 2023, 09:07:53 PM
Well I guess the perception of Dapol would help if your products were not broken upon arrival... (M7, Yeoman hoppers...) or over ten years late (BoB...)
OK some products are great (50s, 68s, even 9Fs and Britannias) but... you need to maintain that standard. It's no wonder some folk are grizzly.
Bob
I do see where you're coming from Bob and we are working hard to improve things. I can't comment publicly on the M7 and Hoppers, as these were in the can before I joined. The Bulleid Light Pacific, the Class 59, Mogul and the 66 are being made by different factories and are shaping up very nicely. Please bear with use now we have some N Gauge feet under the table :)
Quote from: captainelectra on June 01, 2023, 09:30:55 PM
I do see where you're coming from Bob and we are working hard to improve things. I can't comment publicly on the M7 and Hoppers, as these were in the can before I joined. The Bulleid Light Pacific, the Class 59, Mogul and the 66 are being made by different factories and are shaping up very nicely. Please bear with use now we have some N Gauge feet under the table :)
Hi Adam
I have multiple orders in on the Mogul and a thousand orders on the BoB/WC.
I moved my order on the 59 to Revolution as I discovered you are not doing the earliest 59s, as I want 59001/2 in 1986 condition, and you have not modelled that version.
I don't go as far as a 66 in my buying era range.
I'm trying in all ways to support all N gauge manufacturers. But I respect all their communication policies and love to know what is happening to my future orders and to future production. Dapol Digest was too good to be true when it started but when Dapol laid off the lady who ran it (well that's what it seemed from outside) it became useless. It is useful that you are on this forum and post sometimes personal and sometimes Dapol slanted information.
I hope that you can keep up the edgy comms, and feed back the forum view to Dapol and Joel, as he is a bit too much of an accountant and less of a modeller at times. I respect the fact that OO profits sometimes take the preference over N, but I would dispute the role that O has over N in a balanced UK market. Sometimes it seems from your lead PDM that O is the saviour of the world's railway modellers. It is not. Every scale in moderation!
Cheers
Bob
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 03:54:36 PM
Being a DC dinosaur who will never go to DCC I have absolutely no interest in lighting in stock (and even less in sound) and my models are bought to run on a layout – not to gaze lovingly at an interior or fully detailed underframe.
The manufacturers can bring out whatever coloured label they like as long as the usual standard is kept alive at the 'normal' price and these 'superdetailed' thingies are sold at a price I'll never pay in my life.
I really don't know who comes up with this malarkey but believe their time could be better spent getting the quality of every release right
I'm with Newportnobby, both Dapol and Bachmann-GF should spend their money on getting reliable mechanisms and much better quality control at their manufacturing sites. Those of us who cannot see highly detailed interiors when viewing at more than 500mm can definitely see poor running and starting performance.
Just my view, but I've decided not to buy any more Dapol, GF, or Sonic following too many returns of duff out of the box locos - all steam in my case.
We are investing a lot in improved mechanisms for the DJ-era steam locomotives, with improved quality valve gear and, where possible, moving the motor into the loco. Future releases are being built at different factories and will be loco-drive.
This does take time to filter through to the market but improvements are on the way.
Quote from: Firstone18 on June 02, 2023, 06:59:39 AM
I'm with Newportnobby, both Dapol and Bachmann-GF should spend their money on getting reliable mechanisms and much better quality control at their manufacturing sites. Those of us who cannot see highly detailed interiors when viewing at more than 500mm can definitely see poor running and starting performance
I don't think it's a matter of having detail or performance with one sacrificed for the other. I'd like to think that consumers could expect and have both in a model package; super fidelity and detail as well as peerless operating performance.
Quote from: Firstone18 on June 02, 2023, 06:59:39 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 03:54:36 PM
Being a DC dinosaur who will never go to DCC I have absolutely no interest in lighting in stock (and even less in sound) and my models are bought to run on a layout – not to gaze lovingly at an interior or fully detailed underframe.
The manufacturers can bring out whatever coloured label they like as long as the usual standard is kept alive at the 'normal' price and these 'superdetailed' thingies are sold at a price I'll never pay in my life.
I really don't know who comes up with this malarkey but believe their time could be better spent getting the quality of every release right
I'm with Newportnobby, both Dapol and Bachmann-GF should spend their money on getting reliable mechanisms and much better quality control at their manufacturing sites. Those of us who cannot see highly detailed interiors when viewing at more than 500mm can definitely see poor running and starting performance.
Just my view, but I've decided not to buy any more Dapol, GF, or Sonic following too many returns of duff out of the box locos - all steam in my case.
I have had very few problems with the Bachmann Farish steam loco mechanisms, be they tender-drives or more recent coreless motor loco-drives. I handle my locos with extreme care, I do not drag locos with traction tyres "dead" along the track (not even for a mm - I lift tyred wheels clear) I do not use any kind of solvent to clean track (just a good old rubber) - simple precautions.
By way of just one example, the most recent Farish 8F is an exceptional model, it looks exquisite and runs superbly and I have heard of very few failures, I am sure that if treated with respect my two will give very long service.
Personally I do not want to regress to less detail, less technology and "near enough is good enough" locos on generic chassis. I absolutely agree with Adam, you can have both detail and performance, and as Ben Ando has said on a number of occasions, reducing detail doesn't make a model significantly cheaper, it is the volume produced that has the biggest influence on cost.
Given what manufacturers are producing (and they wouldn't if there wasn't a market for them) the majority (like me) are wanting greater detail, DCC advances like plug and play sound, and on top of that a model that runs well too. That is where the future lies, not clunky locos lacking detail on generic chassis.
Too many people look at the likes of Union Mills through rose-tinted spectacles, for sure they have their place and their fans amongst the modelling fraternity, but are not without faults and most certainly not the future on N Gauge modelling.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on June 02, 2023, 11:01:52 AM
Quote from: Firstone18 on June 02, 2023, 06:59:39 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2023, 03:54:36 PM
Being a DC dinosaur who will never go to DCC I have absolutely no interest in lighting in stock (and even less in sound) and my models are bought to run on a layout – not to gaze lovingly at an interior or fully detailed underframe.
The manufacturers can bring out whatever coloured label they like as long as the usual standard is kept alive at the 'normal' price and these 'superdetailed' thingies are sold at a price I'll never pay in my life.
I really don't know who comes up with this malarkey but believe their time could be better spent getting the quality of every release right
I'm with Newportnobby, both Dapol and Bachmann-GF should spend their money on getting reliable mechanisms and much better quality control at their manufacturing sites. Those of us who cannot see highly detailed interiors when viewing at more than 500mm can definitely see poor running and starting performance.
Just my view, but I've decided not to buy any more Dapol, GF, or Sonic following too many returns of duff out of the box locos - all steam in my case.
I have had very few problems with the Bachmann Farish steam loco mechanisms, be they tender-drives or more recent coreless motor loco-drives. I handle my locos with extreme care, I do not drag locos with traction tyres "dead" along the track (not even for a mm - I lift tyred wheels clear) I do not use any kind of solvent to clean track (just a good old rubber) - simple precautions.
By way of just one example, the most recent Farish 8F is an exceptional model, it looks exquisite and runs superbly and I have heard of very few failures, I am sure that if treated with respect my two will give very long service.
Personally I do not want to regress to less detail, less technology and "near enough is good enough" locos on generic chassis. I absolutely agree with Adam, you can have both detail and performance, and as Ben Ando has said on a number of occasions, reducing detail doesn't make a model significantly cheaper, it is the volume produced that has the biggest influence on cost.
Given what manufacturers are producing (and they wouldn't if there wasn't a market for them) the majority (like me) are wanting greater detail, DCC advances like plug and play sound, and on top of that a model that runs well too. That is where the future lies, not clunky locos lacking detail on generic chassis.
Too many people look at the likes of Union Mills through rose-tinted spectacles, for sure they have their place and their fans amongst the modelling fraternity, but are not without faults and most certainly not the future on N Gauge modelling.
Roy
I did say this was my experience, and I accept others will have had different experiences. My first Sonic was returned, and the replacement was just as bad, it also looked like it was not exactly brand new to me; it also went back. After trying two Dapol Schools both of which were returned, I tried a GF WD which ran perfectly out of the box. After running in, and fitting a decoder it ran really well on the club layout. Roughly three weeks later it failed and was also returned and exchanged for another WD. The replacement was clearly brand new, and has run perfectly for well over 9 months now.
So I accept I may have been unlucky, but multiple bad experiences tend to influence my choices.
Even when I was intending to purchase a loco (or two) at TINGS last year no sellers offered to show me the loco running, not even on a straight piece of track, so I didn't buy any locos there.
Again, I stress, this is just my opinion based on my experiences. Thankfully, everyone is different and will have different views on what they want from their layout, it would be very boring if we were all the same.
This will be my final comment on this thread as I don't want to start a war of words!
Cheers :beers:
:offtopicsign:
If you're buying at an exhibition, try asking if the seller is happy for it to be tested on a layout, and then ask permission from a layout to try it.
We have done this on numerous occasions on James Street, most recently Bealman's loco he bought from NPN at York. I appreciate that some layouts may not like to do this.
Martyn
Quote from: Firstone18 on June 02, 2023, 06:59:39 AMI've decided not to buy any more Dapol, GF, or Sonic following too many returns of duff out of the box locos - all steam in my case.
Once again, we come back to the question of why 90% of the failures are in the hands of 10% of modellers??
It's clearly not manufacturer-specific; so if not the modellers themselves, what else is the common factor? IIRC your previous sequence of issues was all via the same retailer, so perhaps something in the way they handle their stock, or the postal service used?
Buying in person and test running before buying (as you subsequently hinted at) is the way I'd go, rather than chasing the absolute lowest prices on-line...
Quote from: Firstone18 on June 02, 2023, 06:59:39 AM
I've decided not to buy any more Dapol, GF, or Sonic following too many returns of duff out of the box locos - all steam in my case.
Which leaves 2nd hand Union Mills or the Rapido Co-Bo.
That seems a little drastic to me.
John P
RevolutioN's class 128 will be of the correct era, maybe
Quote from: PLD on June 02, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
Quote from: Firstone18 on June 02, 2023, 06:59:39 AMI've decided not to buy any more Dapol, GF, or Sonic following too many returns of duff out of the box locos - all steam in my case.
Once again, we come back to the question of why 90% of the failures are in the hands of 10% of modellers??
It's clearly not manufacturer-specific; so if not the modellers themselves, what else is the common factor? IIRC your previous sequence of issues was all via the same retailer, so perhaps something in the way they handle their stock, or the postal service used?
Buying in person and test running before buying (as you subsequently hinted at) is the way I'd go, rather than chasing the absolute lowest prices on-line...
Firstly, a 10% failure rate alone is enough that a product would normally be recalled and the something in the process fixed.
Secondly, we're modellers. So a large chunk of us are more likely to consider fettling or fixing a duff model if it's easier than going through the return process, especially for a model that's in short supply.
Thirdly, there also appears to be another chunk of people who only collect the models and hardly ever run them, so may not even know they have a lemon.
I'm not bothered about Dapol Black Label as long as I can get Johnnie Walker Black Label!
Quote from: zwilnik on June 02, 2023, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: PLD on June 02, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
Once again, we come back to the question of why 90% of the failures are in the hands of 10% of modellers??
Firstly, a 10% failure rate alone is enough that a product would normally be recalled and the something in the process fixed.
Who mentioned a 10% (or any other) failure rate?? ???
Quote from: PLD on June 02, 2023, 08:36:23 PM
Quote from: zwilnik on June 02, 2023, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: PLD on June 02, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
Once again, we come back to the question of why 90% of the failures are in the hands of 10% of modellers??
Firstly, a 10% failure rate alone is enough that a product would normally be recalled and the something in the process fixed.
Who mentioned a 10% (or any other) failure rate?? ???
Good point, a minor logical fallacy on my part there. (although if 10% of the modellers are getting Lemons, they're rather unlucky or the failure rate is close to that). The actual failure rate isn't known though, but I still think in some cases it's higher than it should be and being partly masked by the other things I mentioned.
Quote from: zwilnik on June 02, 2023, 10:48:55 PM
Good point, a minor logical fallacy on my part there. (although if 10% of the modellers are getting Lemons, they're rather unlucky or the failure rate is close to that). The actual failure rate isn't known though, but I still think in some cases it's higher than it should be and being partly masked by the other things I mentioned.
Not quite...
Information from retailers suggests return rates are somewhere in the 3-5% range...
To illustrate with numbers:
If 100 modellers buy 10 locos each (1000 in total); if we accept the upper 5% fail rate, there would be 50 duds in there, but it won't be that 50 modellers each have 1 failure - there will be 10 modellers (
"10% of the modellers") with 4 or 5 failures each, another 5-10 modellers with 1 fail each and 80 modellers with no failures at all...
We've never got to the root cause of that uneven distribution...
Quote from: PLD on June 02, 2023, 11:29:50 PM
Quote from: zwilnik on June 02, 2023, 10:48:55 PM
Good point, a minor logical fallacy on my part there. (although if 10% of the modellers are getting Lemons, they're rather unlucky or the failure rate is close to that). The actual failure rate isn't known though, but I still think in some cases it's higher than it should be and being partly masked by the other things I mentioned.
Not quite...
Information from retailers suggests return rates are somewhere in the 3-5% range...
To illustrate with numbers:
If 100 modellers buy 10 locos each (1000 in total); if we accept the upper 5% fail rate, there would be 50 duds in there, but it won't be that 50 modellers each have 1 failure - there will be 10 modellers ("10% of the modellers") with 4 or 5 failures each, another 5-10 modellers with 1 fail each and 80 modellers with no failures at all...
We've never got to the root cause of that uneven distribution...
What you'd suggested (handling by retailer, couriers, specific handling by modellers etc.) are all valid possibilities that might skew the stats, but it could also be those 80 modellers who never have problems, some are just not reporting them or returning the models. Either because it's something they think fixing themselves is more practical than hoping the replacement will be better (or even available) or they're just collectors who never run them (or don't run them enough for a fault to show itself).
When the models are done in such small runs, even 3-5% can appear quite significant, especially when there aren't enough models allocated to retailers to be able to replace a duff one.