Hi folks,
Initial conversations and ideas are starting for a new n gauge club layout.
Being a club means benefitting from many years of combined experience, but I was curious about hearing wider ideas.
Of course there is the group decision making and compromise to work through.
There is also the opportunity to go much bigger in scale than an individual effort.
But are the requirements and design process of a club layout much different from an individual?
Is it the answer as unique as each club?
Interested to hear others thoughts
Cheers
At my club we are about 6 months in to building our N layout. The main priority we set was that we want to run long trains of up to 8 carriages which means a station with long platforms to accommodate them and a fiddle yard with tracks long enough too. Our layout is 2.8m x 1.2m so we've managed that. Secondly we wanted to incorporate an incline to a raised level - which is in our plan but we haven't started on yet and that will be part of the next phase. Starting from scratch with the layout, it was also a no brainer to design it to be dcc. We've incorporated a continuous bus and soldered droppers to every section of track. Trackwork is Peco Code 80 flex track and Electrofrog points. Points are driven by Cobalt IPs and control is with a Z21. The Z21 has worked out well with many members now having the app on their phones to drive trains. The layout is made up of 12 board sections each 700mm x 400mm and the whole thing separates for storage on three trolleys.
We're making good progress and as of today we have a completed double track loop, plus the fiddle yard is complete. That will enable us to run some trains at our exhibition day next week. After that it will probably take us another 9 months or so to complete the rest of the track work but we'll reach a point before that when some of our members can make a start on the scenics.
Our club probably differs from most in that we don't all work on one or two layouts as a large team.
Instead we have layouts worked on by two or three people at most aided, when needed, by others with specialist skills or knowledge when needed.
Our latest ongoing N gauge project has been developed by two of us who work well together.
My colleague Steve came up with the initial idea to include a wood yard, a viaduct and a layout on two levels.
He left it to me to create the track plan which we tweaked between us. Steve is the track laying and electrical expert so that was his major contribution whilst I, being an expert in absolutely nothing, got on with the rather coarse scenic work.
As you say, each club will have it's own unique methods and ideas so there is no right or wrong approach.
I suppose we benefit from having lots of space which allows multiple layouts to be worked on hence fewer members involved in each project.
Cheers
Martin
Keep it manageable - don't get too ambitious! Members come and go, if the project is too large and the interested membership falls away a large layout can become a bit of a burden on the remaining members to keep going. I've seen this with my former club's N gauge layout which started back in the early 90s (when I was still a member) and the "N" section" of the club was rather larger. 30 years on and it's still very much under construction but with far fewer members working on it now. Frankly it's just too big and heavy, but probably too far along to just scrap it and start again. It makes an appearance every few years at the club's annual show and I pop along and help if I can, but I don't think it's ever been to other shows (as previous layouts did) and doesn't seem likely to.
Be prepared for a "medium" standard of modelling if you want to involve everyone and not just a core of experienced people all with the same vision for the layout. People have different degrees of skill and interests. You hope that belonging to the club helps people learn and develop their skills, and of course one great thing about a club is the spread of knowledge.
Build to the strengths of the club members. Not got a specialist model railway electrician? Keep the electrics very simple. Not got a brilliant building maker? keep the buildings simple. Use the layout as much to train club members as to run trains.. this way the next layout you will have more people capable of taking on those roles.
Don't base a requirement on the layout that is owned by a member.. I know one club that relied on a member to provide their DCC control unit for running the layout and then they left :)
A club layout works best if people can be proud of the part they played in building it, so everyone must have something to do in the building as well as the running and had a role in decisions.. try to run a small elected comittee to oversee the layout planning and building.
If you are going to exhibit it.. assume you will need to rent transport (in case your local van driver who promises to do it is ill or leaves) and make sure that your members are capable of lifting it and setting it up with a minimum number of people for those times that everyone is already booked for that weekend, and also make sure you have enough members available to drive it to it's full potential.
Obviously you may well have to compromise on period/region etc.
Don't let one person take over the role of designing and building their own personal layout.. it must suit the majority of the group, uninfluenced by a single person (or couple of people).
Remember people may leave or join during the process, so have the whole premise and ethos of the layout written down and approved by the whole club before you start :)
Don't overextend.
Finally.. never let one person only design and build complicated things like electronics or similar, in case that person leaves and also make sure that everything is labelled and written down so if a section fails, you have a book that tells you where that wire runs, what pins on connectors it goes through etc etc so a non-builder can troubleshoot :)
Graham
I joined a club in March last year, and helped at their show in August. I noticed many of the layouts attending were transportable by car so no hire van required. Some arrived in two cars, so again no hire van costs. The layouts with the most watchers seemed to be those with something moving all the time, preferably two trains and a bit of shunting. The club I'm in had previously exhibited their layout, but this required a team of at least 6 people and a van to transport it. This layout is now being recreated in a form suitable for members to transport in their cars, and with reduced complexity in the storage yard so trains can be running all the time, with other branch line and goods yard operations happening when enough operators are available.
My best advice is stick to the KISS principle, and make sure it is electrically reliable so it is capable of long periods of operation without needing attention.
Cheers :beers:
My club has at present 6 layouts in out in the club house and three on the shelves.
We generally work In Teams on the different layouts. I have part of my own layout as one of the six, but when that's finished no more private layouts will be allowed to be permanently in the clubhouse due to lack of space.
One of the layouts has been sold, and another is likely to go on sale soon.
We have one large layout under construction 12ft X 17ft, designed to be carried by in that teams cars. It currently has half a dozen people in that team.
We try otherwise to carry layouts in a single car.. but it's the teams decision.
When a new club layout is proposed, a team must state what they are going to do with their old layout, sell or strip down to start again, or rebuild a section.
People do change from team to team or belong in more than one team. While Tuesday is the main club night, some teams chose to come in another day and or evening to work on their layout.
All layouts that are in the club are designed for showing including mine. The next club show / open day is 28th may in Hoveton .
In the ideal world, the club project should be something more than any individual could achieve alone, in scale through combined input and in standard by utilising individual skills and strengths.
There does however need to be a clear vision and focus which probably does need some leadership or coordination to stop individual members going off in their own directions. Unfortunately too many end up being fundamentally flawed in design and/or construction from comprising too much to try to please everyone.
When running for fun in the club rooms, it's fine to allow members to run whatever stock they want - anything goes - but for exhibition, you should stick to the intended theme/region/period and ensure that between the group sufficient appropriate rolling stock is available.
Have you considered a modular system like T-TRAK?
The Yorkshire Area Group of the NGS basically gets a different layout at each meeting, as different modules are brought by different members (plus a few club owned ones which stay). Each module is lightweight, and small enough to take home to make rapid progress.
More here: https://yagngs.wixsite.com/yorkshire-area-group/t-trak (https://yagngs.wixsite.com/yorkshire-area-group/t-trak)
Modular isn't for everyone for various reasons, but do give it some thought.
Ian M
Whatever layout you build, if you intend to exhibit it please do NOT run to a real time timetable. whilst it may be ultra realistic, it must be remembered that exhibitions are not just for railway modellers but for the public, who bring their chidren who are the ones who will hopefully take the hobby into the future but their attention span is limited, so a constant flow of trains moving is the order of the day to entertain them and perhaps get them into the hobby. remember, that is where new club members ultimately come from!
Regards,
Alex
That could come as a shock to many clubs/individuals who appear to think shows are for them rather than the paying public :)
Quote from: Hailstone on February 22, 2023, 11:02:42 PM
Whatever layout you build, if you intend to exhibit it please do NOT run to a real time timetable. whilst it may be ultra realistic, it must be remembered that exhibitions are not just for railway modellers but for the public, who bring their chidren who are the ones who will hopefully take the hobby into the future but their attention span is limited, so a constant flow of trains moving is the order of the day to entertain them and perhaps get them into the hobby. remember, that is where new club members ultimately come from!
Regards,
Alex
Absolutely agree with the sentiment, though is not something I'd say was particularly prevalent with Club layouts, nor N guage layouts in general... In my experience, I'd associate it more with certain supposedly 'big name' individuals, and mainly the larger scales...
Must admit I've no interest in watching layouts run to a timetable. I get it that some sort of structure can help to keep operation interesting for the exhibitors, but so many times you see a whole bunch of people behind a large layout and not a single movement out front.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 23, 2023, 07:59:10 PM
Must admit I've no interest in watching layouts run to a timetable. I get it that some sort of structure can help to keep operation interesting for the exhibitors, but so many times you see a whole bunch of people behind a large layout and not a single movement out front.
Yes to a
sequence - it can help pesent a balanced variety of trains, avoid conflicting movements and stop operators running their favourites all the time...
No to a
timetable - in all but the busiest locations too much dead time between movements...
All our club layouts are built with shows in mind. Most are foam and thin ply bearers, with a hard flat top. The legs are also often a foam thin ply Sandwich.
The worst transportable layout I've seen visiting our shows needed 6 people to lift into the hall each section of board.... It was steel framed.
The cleverest layout I've seen, turned up late at our show, well we thought it was late.
They slid it out of his car, down onto its end with wheels then rolled it into the hall. It had two boards facing each other. They then were pulled up and out so what was the at bottom was the join. Legs dropped out of the outer edges then the two boards were pushed together the transport trolley forming the centre section supports. Assembled in about one minute!!!. A ten foot by two foot layout..
Yes I agree with others, something needs to be moving, the average non enthusiast viewer won't stay if there's nothing moving in just a minute. I've also noticed they rarely stay for more than 5 minutes unless asking questions.
The followers of this forum and others will watch for up to say 20 minutes. It's an interesting dilemma setting a programme.
For my N guage layout. I've built an 8 lane traverser, 4 trains each way, with slow running, plus some light shunting, and a branch line shuttle should give a suitable programme to cover both scenarios.
I agree with Hailstone ,a few years ago my late best mate Cyril asked me to take him to the big annual show at Stoke Mandeville Hospital as there was a 32ft long O gauge layout in a magazine and he really wanted to see it as the photos looked amazing .
We went straight to the layout and it did look fantastic with all sorts of sound effects and brilliant scenery ,we looked at every thing and Cyril asked the operator if they had got an electrical problem as nothing was moving ,the guy then looked at his watch and said in 10 minutes and carried on treading his paper .A bell rang and a train moved about 2ft and the guy sat down again ,another 2 minutes and more bells the loco moved onto a couple of coaches in the station and again the guy sat down another 2 minutes and the bell rang and a whistle sounded the train moved very realistically out of the statiion towards the other end of the layout ,
Cyril asked the guy when the next train was coming back the answer so annoyed Cyril and in the 20 years or more that I had known Cyril I had never heard him swear like he did that day ,He told the guy in very strong language that we had paid good money to see the layout and trains running NOT SOME GUY READING A :censored: NEWSPAPER .at the end of the show Cyril and his daughter voted Brian Silbys little Layout best in show as there was allways a train moving .
Sorry for the long post but It was just to show that a non railway person like Cyril wanted to see some trains moving .
Bob Tidbury
Quote from: Hailstone on February 22, 2023, 11:02:42 PM
Whatever layout you build, if you intend to exhibit it please do NOT run to a real time timetable. whilst it may be ultra realistic, it must be remembered that exhibitions are not just for railway modellers but for the public, who bring their chidren who are the ones who will hopefully take the hobby into the future but their attention span is limited, so a constant flow of trains moving is the order of the day to entertain them and perhaps get them into the hobby. remember, that is where new club members ultimately come from!
Regards,
Alex
YES!!! All exhibitors of any gauge layout need to take note of this post. Many times at shows I see crowds round a layout and take note of what is running and almost always it is lots of trains, and very short time gaps between a train moving. Layouts don't necessarily need to be roundy-roundy to keep the viewers interested - look at Ambleton Vale for a good example. Plenty of things for the younger viewers to spot and frequent train movements to see. Conversely, layouts with few, or no viewers usually turn out to be 'static' with nothing moving or undergoing maintenance to correct a fault which is preventing trains running.
Just my views as a newcomer to attending shows as a club member.
Cheers :beers:
Just a couple of things, electrically if you have multiple running lines it may be wise to have districts so one electrical issue doesn't shut down the entire layout (label everything), problems underneath can drive members away.
For the frequency of running trains I will echo constant movement (mainline trains, slow freight being held temporarily while an express passes, shunters moving around depots to stations).
Leefield and Ashpeth of this parish has some very good YouTube videos with narrative, a good example of "something moving all the time)
Quote from: Jeebee on February 21, 2023, 12:48:36 PM
Is it the answer as unique as each club?
Pretty much, yes.
The traditional benefits of a club layout were to have something larger and more complicated than you could have time or space for at home. There were the benefits of a number of people building and operating, as well as the benefit of shared contribution to the cost and rolling stock provision...
To an extent that still holds true, but the purpose of a club layout can vary significantly.
Is it the intention to take the layout out to exhibitions, or is it more for the benefit of the membership on club nights so they can run stuff?
Either way, unless your club is very lucky, it has to be easily set up and dismantled, as well as portable. For shows some clubs hire a van, but when planning it is worth designing it so it fits into x number of members own vehicles
Building layouts is not a cheap do and often clubs can get carried away with enthusiasm at the planning stage, build something enormous and then realise they have sunk a lot of money into something which is too big and too complex to operate. Our old club layout had a lot of sidings, including a set of carriage sidings. Ironically we ran mainly units on the layout and the carriage sidings just weren't used - a bit of a waste of track and point motors really. The sidings were removed during a rebuild, they became a road and site office (pretty much like reality really!).
The good rule of thumb is that for a club layout to successfully operate at least three or four of the builders need to have enough stock to operate the layout (even if only just) on their own. That spreads the risk of the layout becoming obsolete if you lose a couple of members.
I also echo the comments earlier on not to fall into the trap of relying on one person for the electrics. I accept it is often easier for one person to do the actual wiring (too many people doing it leads to confusion), but the knowledge of how the layout is wired and how to repair faults has to be shared throughout the group, or at least a number of the group. I have more than once heard of a club layout having to be abandoned due to a member leaving a nobody understanding how the thing worked!
I also agree that a club layout cannot really just follow the interests of one member. That happens for a number of reasons - sometimes quite by accident (a number of members leave, resulting in a layout relevant to only one member) - but often due to a forceful personality in the club (sadly they tend to be the ones who eventually explode over something and flounce off leaving everyone in the lurch!).
Careful planning and consent amongst the members is of course crucial for such a venture, but it is a lot of fun!
Coincidentally our club is also about to embark on a new N gauge project - we have obtained some boards. Let the planning begin! :D