Hi all,
This isn't intended as some sort of entitled rant or complaint, more just a genuine question for someone out of the loop for the last 10 years.
Why is it that N gauge has missed out quite a few of the recent 00 offerings on pre grouping locos, for example, Bachmann have produced a director, L&Y class 5, Johnson 1P and compound in 00, but we've never received an equivalent in N gauge. the pre grouping locos that are available are ones which survived well into the late 50s and 60s in large numbers, for instance terriers
Is there a lack of interest for earlier locos in N? Are manufacturers not committed to them? or other reasons. I used to think it was the former, but we've seen an uptake on older classes in 00 now.
cheers
Joe
Because it was long long ago...
I'm coming up 63 and was born 37 years after the grouping...
We're still waiting for some of the more popular BR era steam locos to be released / updated such as Kings and Counties.
I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.
I also think that later they said that they could apply a shrink ray to 4mm models and would make N gauge versions. But this has only occasionally happened. It's not just pre grouping locos that haven't been from 4mm versions, but a number of grouping and BR designs:eg the K3 and various DMUs. Much this has been discussed on other threads.
So it would seem that's Bachmann's business plan.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on January 20, 2023, 06:37:43 PM
I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.
The Crab did get a slight makeover, with better wheels than the old Poole ones at least.
In 'OO' a large number of the most common loco classes are already available RTR possibly due to the amount of manufacturers producing models. As a result they are now having to look at other revenue streams so pre grouping locos appears to be the option. 'OO' is also popular amongst collectors who may well like a 'quaint', older loco in a colourful livery.
In 'N' there are fewer manufacturers and a smaller collectors market whilst there are still large gaps amongst the more common grouping locos. Coupled to that the 'N' market is much smaller than 'OO' so manufacturers may well be more risk adverse when it comes to more niche models.
I model pre grouping in the south so can't complain with the LBSCR Terrier, SECR N and C Class and SECR coaches with wagons just around the corner.
Just my view on things.
Quote from: chrism on January 20, 2023, 06:51:14 PM
Quote from: martyn on January 20, 2023, 06:37:43 PM
I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.
The Crab did get a slight makeover, with better wheels than the old Poole ones at least.
Forgot the new wheelsets, I was thinking more along the lines of replacement model.
Humbly apologetic.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on January 20, 2023, 06:56:19 PM
Quote from: chrism on January 20, 2023, 06:51:14 PM
Quote from: martyn on January 20, 2023, 06:37:43 PM
I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.
The Crab did get a slight makeover, with better wheels than the old Poole ones at least.
Forgot the new wheelsets, I was thinking more along the lines of replacement model.
Humbly apologetic.
No apology necessary - I don't think it got much more than the wheels and a new livery.
I've said it a few times before, why no Southern 4-6-0s? Southern don't do too well with other classes, Dapol Terrier, M7 and Schools, Farish N, C, UM T9, 700, 0395; 8 classes total.
I don't count Bulleid's spam cans or Q1 - I model mid 1930s.
Quote from: jc_92 on January 20, 2023, 05:42:49 PM
Is there a lack of interest for earlier locos in N? Are manufacturers not committed to them? or other reasons. I used to think it was the former, but we've seen an uptake on older classes in 00 now.
Given the generally accepted assumption N is 20% of the 00 market then manufacturers have a much larger target audience in 00 with more manufacturers/commissions.
It's only a personal opinion but I believe Bachmann have lost interest in N lately :hmmm:
Quote from: Only Me on January 20, 2023, 10:08:16 PM
As a poster above notes its what people remember so as we move forward in time less and less obscure models are remembered by people still alive which makes producing them not cost effective
I'd say it's more on the lines of people model what they like, it just so happens to be what they remember is often what they like, for example I'm mid-30s and have no memory of steam outside of heritage lines, but I wouldn't model anything modern since I find them generally dull, closest I'd do is NSE since I just happen to like the livery and it's something from my area.
But my favourite loco happens to be a LSWR A12 since again it happens to be local to where I live and I like the look of it, but since the manufacturers don't want to make it, will just make it myself.
Interesting discussion. I also find it interesting that if you look at RM magazines from the fifties/sixties, many layouts are GW, LNER, LMS or Southern.
These days, RM is full of BR transition layouts. It's a nostalgia thing, I reckon. The modellers of the fifties/sixties modelled those eras because they are what they remembered from their youth.
I model transition, why? Because it's what I remember as a kid.
I think anyone who allows a little bit of 'Rule 1' often falls for the pretty pre-grouping types as they're usually very attractive. It's probably these liveries which make a pre-grouping model viable, rather than the later grouping and BR potential of that same model, I seem to remember the SECR C class selling out long before the SR and BR models. Farish could have made less of those of course, we just don't know. The problem with rule 1 is I think most people usually only have one of each thing so once you've got your pretty SECR C class, you probably won't buy another unless you're trying to model the SECR that is, when multiple may well be needed, but I think such people must be few and far between, especially in N.
When it comes to making their OO models in N, Bachmann must have the advantage of sales figures from the OO models, if a model didn't sell well in OO then any sensible business would think very carefully about making the same thing again, but for a much smaller market. Regardless of what the old management may have said a decade or more ago about shrinking down every OO model to N (I wonder if anyone from Bachmann actually said that, or if a conversation was taken the wrong way and then the myth has stuck around?!). Regardless, I'd rather see Bachmann continue to prosper than struggle because they make lots of models which aren't really viable just to keep the promise someone (who may well not be involved with the company anymore due to retirement/departure) made many years ago.
As to Bachmann's interest in N, whilst it's the total opposite of a pre-group loco, why would they spend thousands on a new Class 90 if they weren't interested in N, that must have been a six figure investment at-least?
I guess there will be some new announcements in a few weeks, maybe that will give us a clue about their interest in N? All we know for sure is whatever they announce, it will never be enough for some!
Quote from: Bealman on January 21, 2023, 12:33:30 AM
Interesting discussion. I also find it interesting that if you look at RM magazines from the fifties/sixties, many layouts are GW, LNER, LMS or Southern.
These days, RM is full of BR transition layouts. It's a nostalgia thing, I reckon. The modellers of the fifties/sixties modelled those eras because they are what they remembered from their youth.
I model transition, why? Because it's what I remember as a kid.
I agree. BR blue is what I remember as a lad, hence where most of my interests lie. I find the steam / diesel transition era fascinating to research and if I had infinite cash would love to model more of it, but it is before my time.
I expect for the same reason we will see an increased interest in Virgin 47s, Midland Mainline HSTs, Northern Spirit 156s, EWS 58s, South West Trains 159s or whatnot as those who were kids during initial privatisation remeber those trains with the same fondness are now heading towards their mid 30s. Indeed it is now quite strange to work alongside those on the railway who weren't even born when voyagers were introduced! Although I suspect the drivers who worked on steam probably thought the same when I started - "drivers these days, never fired train in their life - playing at trains on their HSTs - don't know they're born!".
Much the same as others, when I started in N in the mid 70, I modelled what I remembered as a child-the very last of East Anglian steam, and the changeover to green diesels.
Having started, I continued with this theme, as to change all my accumulated stock for more up to date liveried stock would have cost too much when I didn't have a lot of disposable income. Now, inertia with a large collection means I still model transition period.
Had I been starting now, I don't know what I'd have done, as East Anglia is now ruled by multiple units on passenger duties, many of which are unobtainable RTR. Freight is not quite so bad.
I may well have ended up modelling late blue/grey and early sectorisation.
With reference to Bealman, I think what he's said is true; when I started, it seemed that almost every other layout was GWR themed, possibly because of chicken and egg with stock availability. This was the case in OO as well as N. I think I read in a magazine at the time that people do tend to model what they say as a child, which, at that time, would have been late Grouping/early BR; this was reflected in the layouts of the day.
But one of the magazine editors told us a year or three ago that a good steam layout on the front cover gets more casual sales than one with diesels or electrics on it.
Martyn
@JimSan (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6721) I have a scratch built A12, loco body is from brass tube and sheet, tender is a UM drive and a hacked Worsley works etch, if I was to do another I would look for a UM Adams 0395 0-6-0 and hack that; you'd need larger drivers and a pair of smaller wheels
A12 in brass
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/129/2855-210123115541.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=129263)
A12 in SR 1930s (handrail a bit oversize!)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/129/2855-210123115722.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=129264)
UM 0395
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/129/2855-210123115815.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=129265)
Just to be awkward in EM I model either, 13 years before I was born or, 34 years before I was born. In N I model Highland Railways in 1963! So history doesn't come into it!!
However in general it is correct people model what they remember.
N gauge first appeared in 1946 (UK), made by HB Whall, though it was not really mass production until in 1962, with Arnold.
In those days it was extremely difficult to make small electric motors, so it would only have been mainline modern steam express locomotives.
Pre grouping large locos were comparively rare, eg midlands small loco policy, yes GWR and Great Northern had some. But generally the small locos of pre grouping would not have been made.
Move on to the 1960s, when N really got going, and steam was on the way out. Diesels were the new in thing and steam everyone remembered all the express large locos of the 1930s, both had a nice large body to put motors in. Plenty of models to sell without going back 40 years.
So in general that's why there are few pre grouping locos
Back in 2009, Jeremy Burrows @PGN (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4604) wrote a series of articles for the N Gauge Journal about the availability of pre-grouping N gauge models.
Four articles were published as follows:
NGJ issue 2009/2: Pre-grouping locomotives
NGJ issue 2009/3: Pre-grouping rolling stock
NGJ issue 2009/5: Building a pre-grouping layout
NGJ issue 2009/6: Pre-Grouping locomotives & rolling stock (updated)
The updated lists in issue 2009/6 are particularly interesting as they show the pre-grouping models that have been produced since the early days of British N gauge. Obviously, being published in 2009, the lists are not completely up to date today but they do include many obscure (used in the best sense of the word) kits that were produced by cottage industry manufacturers of the time, many of whom are no longer in business.
I noticed a few minor errors in some of the listings but I think it was certainly a comprehensive listing at the time. For example, the updated list of pre-grouping locos in issue 2009/6 includes over 80 loco models/kits.
It may give people ideas on models/kits to look out for on eBay and at swap meets.
Electronic copies of the 2009 NG Journal are available to members from the N Gauge Society shop on either CD or flash drive.
Ian
The models ARE out there ... if you have time to look for them, budget to outbid others when you find them, and don't demand that "everything must be to the same standard as the latest £300 offerings with lights that go *bing* and writing that you can only read under a magnifying glass".
They exist. In small numbers. In need of repair and attention in many cases ... with parts that are difficult or impossible to obtain now.
The market for them is also small. At most, there were only ever 50 or so members in the Era 1 & 2 group. Add in as many collectors and "rule 1" modellers. Twice as many, if you like. It's still not enough to make new models an economically viable proposition.
We are lucky to have as much as we have. The Dapol terrier in myriad guises. The M7 (about to come out in a much improved guise ... and goodness knows it needs it if you want one to pull more than two or three bogies). The SECR C and N class. The LNWR "Prince of Wales" from Union Mills ... now alas sold out and not to be repeated. The "City of Truro" (ditto).
The ratio of available models to interested modellers is already FAR higher than for any other period you care to name ... but it still isn't enough to make a worthwhile layout with RTR alone. You need to repaint things. Overlook inaccuracies (Farish 4P in Caledonian livery, anyone?) Build kits, kit-bash, even scratch build. And search out the older models, which I listed in the articles referred to by Ian above.
I was updating these lists for a supplement which the N Gauge Journal was going to run to celebrate the centenary of the Grouping ... and then my eyesight failed. Three operations at Moorfields later, they hope I will get sight back in my right eye. But the supplement has been delayed. A spoiler ... my conclusion is that you CAN model pretty much any of the major pre-grouping systems, and have a decent range of models ... but in many cases they're not easy to come by and unless you possess formidable skills like Gareth or Rudi, you'll probably end up having to make a number of compromises to get what you want. I'm happy to make those compromises (largely because I have no choice).
But are we REALLY worse off than the OO guys? I don't think we are, actually. When my eyes started failing, I broadened my horizons, Started buying a few OO models agaisnt the day that I might not be able to continue in N. Have I been able to assemble a good representative selection for any pre-grpouping system? Not a bit of it! What I can offer is a patchy selection, just the same as when I started on pre-grouping in N. I've been collecting pre-grpouping in N for almost 20 years now, and I'm just about getting there. It will probably take as long again to "get there" in OO.
My best advice for any keen pre-grouper in N is don't start out saying "this is the system I want to model ... now where can I get the kit?" Look through the other end of the telescope. Buy what you see, when you see it ... then sit back and survey what you have and say "how can I use this?". You may end up having to create an implausible "might-have-been" to justify putting Great Central, North British and Great Northern all in the same location; or perhaps you can "tweak" reality a bit to say that the locos loaned to the Highland in 1915 just happened to be the ones you've actually managed to get. Or maybe you just have to go down the "what if THIS had been the selection of locos the Bluebell had maged to get their hands on in the 70s?" route. Be bold ... be imaginative ... be creative. But above all, don't despair! As I say, the models ARE out there ...
Further to @PGN (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4604) 's helpful and interesting post, there are several other Union Mills classes suitable for pre-Grouping layouts after repainting. For example, there are four from the NER and one from the GN. In certain instances, one might have to overlook post-Grouping modifications such as the 'flowerpot' chimney on the 'Pom-Pom' - or, of course, make the necessary 'un-modifications'.
The 'pre-Grouping' period was a long one, from the days of railways like the Kilmarnock & Troon and the Stockton & Darlington, to after January 1923 for late-comers like the Caledonian or railways which were not included such as the Metropolitan and some joint railways, most notably the Somerset & Dorset (Union Mills made two engines in S&DJR livery) and Midland & Great Northern. If one is modelling the late pre-Grouping period, the LSWR has three potential Union Mills locomotives as the '700' class 0-6-0 and the 'T9' 4-4-0 are possible. The rebuilding of these classes, with superheated boilers, by Mr Urie commenced in 1921 and 1922 respectively. The other LSWR engine is the lovely old Adams 0-6-0 that @Dorsetmike (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2855) illustrated in his excellent post.
The present day Graham Farish make/made a '4F' in Midland livery. There is one in my loft as part of a set with three Great War tanks on wagons!
With all good wishes
John
There are a (very) few exceptions sold.
However, I too would love to model pre-grouping era. I suspect the issue is that the manufacturer would have dozens of companies, many of whom built or ordered in, their own unique classes of locos and rolling stock. The market sadly would be very limited for each product, whereas a Grouping era loco which possibly lasted into BR days, or originated pre-grouping, or both, can be tooled once and offered in more than one era's livery.
It's a shame as a model of the ECML pre-grouping would offer GNR + NER or NER + North British locos and stock on a single model, prototypically. Similarly the WCML would offer LNWR, MR and Caley.
Quote from: GAD on January 22, 2023, 02:01:38 PM
Similarly the WCML would offer LNWR, MR and Caley.
And FR at Carnforth
Well of course, if you could figure out a way to model Carlisle Citadel (I'm still working on THAT one!) you could have LNWR, MR, NER, NBR, CR, G&SWR and of course the Maryport & Carlisle all represented. And there are one or two locations in south Wales where four or even five different companies worked into the same station.
Then there's the Cheshire Lines Committee ... jointly owned by the MR, GCR and GNR, with its own rolling stock but it hired in its own motive power from the GCR. But for through trains to the MR and GNR systems, those companies generally provided the motive power.
Peterborough has quite an exciting mix of companies, too.
As I said, it's certainly do-able. The approaches to Bournemouth, with LSWR and S&DJR trains running over the same metals is another very practicable proposition; as is the southern approach to Guildford where LSWR, SECR and LBSCR all ran their trains over the same metals. You might need to use a bit of modellers' licence to spice up the LBSC workings, though.
The Eastern approaches to Reading is another nice candidate ... GWR and SECR. A pair of the N class moguls were rostered for the Reading duties, and with the Dean Goods and the City of Truro and a number of nice kits out there (28xx 2-8-0 and 43xx 2-6-0 plus, of course, the conversion kit for back-dating the Farish "Hall") you can have quite a nice variety of GWR motive power.
Or you could say "hang it all ... I'm going REALLY early" and build a Liverpool & Manchester layout using 3D prints from Newman Miniatures. Rudi offers about 7 different L&M locomotive types (all intended to be free-wheeling and driven by a powered vehicle in the train) and a variety of rolling stock.
And John is absolutely right ... there's a lot more locomotive types out there than the few I mentioned in my post. If people would find it helpful, I can dig out my full locomotive tables that I compiled for the Journal articles back in 2009 and re-post them here. They need a little up-dating to cover the most recent offerings, but that shouldn't be too difficult to do.
Ooooohhh ... and a word of caution about the Dapol terrier "Stepney". This is an A1X not an A1. It only ran as an A1X in Stroudley's improved engine green livery in preservation on the Bluebell Railway. By the time the A1s were being converted, Mr Marsh was in charge, so any LBSCR A1X whould be in Marsh umber livery (which Dapol did finally produce ... although not until I had repainted one myself. Fortunately they chose a different running number ... )
I think that the time has come that steam era modellers become more interested in the pre grouping companies.
As has been said earlier a lot of current modellers of the transition period have memories of the railways in those days.
But as time passes by less modellers have memories of steam in normal use.
And if someone starts modelling without having seen steam operation in real life the pre grouping period is much more interesting with shining locos and coaches in elaborate liveries.
It would be nice if more pre grouping models were released!
Jan
Jan ... that was PRECISELY my premise when I decided to "go pre-grouping" 15 - 20 years back, and founded the Era 1 & 2 Group of the NGS.
In addition to my post #18 above, I forgot to mention that there are now a large number of pre-grouping locos and rolling stock available as 3D prints. For example, the Shapeways shop of Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) includes many 3D prints of pre-grouping designs.
Ian
In OO gauge, Hornby have 2 pre-grouping train sets in their 2023 announcements.
Quote from: icairns on January 22, 2023, 05:16:58 PM
In addition to my post #18 above, I forgot to mention that there are now a large number of pre-grouping locos and rolling stock available as 3D prints. For example, the Shapeways shop of Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) includes many 3D prints of pre-grouping designs.
Ian
Unfortunately Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) does not advise suitable chassis for his bodies. I also suspect that in many cases the bodies are to scale and therefore may not fit commercially available chassis.
He does have a comment on most of his products more or less to that effect.
GE
Quote from: GlenEglise on January 22, 2023, 08:53:44 PM
Unfortunately Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) does not advise suitable chassis for his bodies. I also suspect that in many cases the bodies are to scale and therefore may not fit commercially available chassis.
He does have a comment on most of his products more or less to that effect.
That's because they are designed for larger scales with scratch built chassis but he shrinks them down to give 'N' modellers a starting point. As for scale he reduces them to 1:148 and/or 1:152 so that is not an issue. However in some cases splashers can make things a tight squeeze for some of the the wider treaded 'N' gauge wheels.
View them as a scratch aid requiring a modified or scratch built chassis.
Just had a count up of my pre-grouping locos, 19 of 12 classes ex LSWR plus 2 ex LBSC, not sure about LMS classes I have UM 2P & 3F and Farish 4F.
RTR classes UM T9, 700 & 0395, Dapol M7, Terrier, kits BHE N15, Langley S15 and E4, Peco B4, NBrass G6; scratch built A12 and K10; a bit of kit bashing and mix 'n match with the BHE and Langley kits.
SR Maunsell classes RTR Dapol Schools, Farish N, kits Gem Z class; hacks x2 Jubilees to Lord Nelson, 4F to Q
Quote from: thebrighton on January 22, 2023, 09:51:25 PM
Quote from: GlenEglise on January 22, 2023, 08:53:44 PM
Unfortunately Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) does not advise suitable chassis for his bodies. I also suspect that in many cases the bodies are to scale and therefore may not fit commercially available chassis.
He does have a comment on most of his products more or less to that effect.
That's because they are designed for larger scales with scratch built chassis but he shrinks them down to give 'N' modellers a starting point. As for scale he reduces them to 1:148 and/or 1:152 so that is not an issue. However in some cases splashers can make things a tight squeeze for some of the the wider treaded 'N' gauge wheels.
View them as a scratch aid requiring a modified or scratch built chassis.
Yes, much as I thought. Scratchaid requires a degree of skill which I lack therefore only of use to those with the skills.
I do know that "Old dogs can learn new tricks" however I don't think I'd have the patience required.
Cheers,
GE
As stated by GlenEglise and thebrighton above, it is true that Simon Dawson (Recreation21) typically shrinks his larger designs down to 1:148 or 1:152 which often makes the internal space inside the body very tight for fitting a proprietary N gauge chassis.
However, I have successfully completed models from him that included the LNER Class A5 4-6-2T (GNR Class 9N), and NER Classes ES1 and EB1 electric locos. Yes, they all needed work to fit a chassis that would work, but that is why I do railway modelling.
I currently have an LNER Class Q6 0-8-0 (NER Class T2) and LNER Class G5 0-4-4 (NER Class O) from Recreation21 on the workbench.
As thebrighton states, the width between the splashers is often an issue and it is definitely so with the LNER G5 3D print. It will not fit the Dapol Mark I M7 chassis because of this. I am waiting for the Dapol Mark II 0-4-4 chassis to try it out on the G5. I know I will have to widen the splashers but I want to make sure that there are no other interferences before I start modifying the 3D print.
A couple of years ago, I contacted Simon Dawson and asked if he had ever considered designing prints for a couple of NER locos that I was interested in. He replied that he had the drawings of these locos and that he would think about it. In about a week, both designs were available on his Shapeways site in N gauge (I am not suggesting that people inundate Simon with their wish-lists but I just wanted to illustrate that he is a prolific designer).
By the way, I just used Recreation21 as an example of someone that has a wide and eclectic range of 3D prints that includes many pre-grouping designs available in N gauge. There are many others.
Ian
I've also nothing but praise for Rue d'Etropal, and have made several of his loco and coach models. I agree that they aren't designed to fit a particular chassis but I have never had any problems getting a suitable chassis to fit. Yes, occasionally you need to open out a bit inside but the plastic files easily and with care you can get things to fit.
I had the same experience when I asked him about an SR W class, which arrived on his site in a month or so, and also with a Period 1 LMS full brake which only took three days! It's only the problems with quality of printing from Shapeways that is a bit on an issue, but sanding and filing plastic is a lot easier than battling with chunks of crude whitemetal from the likes of Langley or others.
I would suggest that anyone wanting to try something looks at Ian's article in RM, or my earlier one about the J50, if they want to see how easy it is to fit a chassis into a 3D print. Yes, you have to experiment a bit sometimes but unless you try how do you know if you can do it or not?
I'm currently working on an SECR P class from @jimsan, which fits on a Terrier chassis. Gareth (@thebrighton) was most helpful in getting the chassis apart and making it fit the tiny body, and for a small model I was most impressed with how it goes together. I will be modelling it in its later years so no need for a complex livery!
It can be done, but I suspect RTR versions of most of these won't happen in N, or at least not for a long time.
Dave
For pre-grouping or pioneer era to take off it will need at least one manufacturer to offer not just locos, as has been said above several pre-grouping era locos are available as pre-grouping livery, more are available in grouping livery and a repaint would suffice, but not that many. As for rolling stock there are a few coaches and goods rolling stock in pre-grouping liveries, but a lot more will be needed to make pre-grouping more than a small part of N gauge modelling. More so for the really early era.
There's also the problem that pre-grouping classes that still existed in BR days may well have been extensively altered and rebuilt. This would affect the theory of 'long life, multiple livery' type decisions taken by manufacturers.
For example, the 'Claud Hamiltons' (D14, 15, 16 and sub classes; a hint in the number of classes!) in the 1950s were much changed visually from the locos that first came from Stratford in 1900.
The 'Directors' built by the LNER had their height cut down from the GCR version.
And so on. Plus, as been said, what are they going to haul?
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on January 23, 2023, 10:20:37 AM
And so on. Plus, as been said, what are they going to haul?
Great question, maybe there are lots of unmade Graham Hughes wagon kits in drawers (I have some)?
RCH 1887 and 1907 7 and 5 planks and NE hoppers from the 2mm SA?
NGS MR(and CLC) van?
I would like to see some pre 1923 wagon transfers. I thought about making some plasticard or brass stencils for airbrushing GC, GN, GE, CLC etc, but that's as far as I got. 2mmSA has SDJR, CR and NB listed in Shop 2.
The old farish suburbans, cut down, with ultima roof and ends make a passable 50' coach.
@PGN (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4604) Thanks, would like to have a copy of your list, particularly rolling stock - I was an absent member when they were published in 2009. (Actually I should buy the Journal DVD)
Mark
I assume that the Matheson models coal wagons are pre-grouping but they are a bit pricy.
The N Gauge Society do kits for a GWR iron mink van and an outside-framed Midland Railway van.
I have pre-ordered some pre-grouping goods stock from Rails I believe to go with my SECR C class loco. I'm looking forward to receiving those.
Quote from: joe cassidy on January 23, 2023, 11:32:30 AM
I have pre-ordered some pre-grouping goods stock from Rails I believe to go with my SECR C class loco. I'm looking forward to receiving those.
Would they be the Rapido packs, Joe? I've ordered packs 1,2,3 and 4 (but in BR livery)
What are they going to haul?
I have over 50 pre-grouping trains in commission ... so the rolling stock is there. (OK, so some of the wagons are 1923 RCH designs ... but once they're in pre-grouping liveries, you don't really notice that so much ... )
There's plenty of pre-grouping transfer sheets to be had, too ... and the letters from a Big 4 sheet can be mixed and matched (although different sizes can be a pain ... but a little bit of judicious brushwork can extend the N from NE to the same height as the G grom GW to give you GN, for instance ... )
HMRS 4mm methfix sheets are great, too ... they have a range of sizes, and the smaller letters in 4mm work very well as larger letters in 2mm.
I used to make a lot of use of Letraset rub-down sheets too (generic alphabet sheets) ... but these, unfortunately, are no longer available.
Quote from: Newportnobby on January 23, 2023, 12:05:43 PM
Quote from: joe cassidy on January 23, 2023, 11:32:30 AM
I have pre-ordered some pre-grouping goods stock from Rails I believe to go with my SECR C class loco. I'm looking forward to receiving those.
Would they be the Rapido packs, Joe? I've ordered packs 1,2,3 and 4 (but in BR livery)
You're correct Mick, Rapido not Rails
Can you post a link, joe, for the benefit of anyone wishing to lay their hands on some?
Quote from: icairns on January 22, 2023, 10:50:10 PMHowever, I have successfully completed models from him that included the LNER Class A5 4-6-2T (GNR Class 9N), and NER Classes ES1 and EB1 electric locos.
Whoops! Sorry, I meant "GCR Class 9N" not "GNR".
Ian
Here is a link to Rapido Trains website :
https://rapidotrains.co.uk
Thanks joe ... that takes me to their website, but I don't see anything there about transfers ...
Quote from: joe cassidy on January 23, 2023, 01:06:31 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on January 23, 2023, 12:05:43 PM
Quote from: joe cassidy on January 23, 2023, 11:32:30 AM
I have pre-ordered some pre-grouping goods stock from Rails I believe to go with my SECR C class loco. I'm looking forward to receiving those.
Would they be the Rapido packs, Joe? I've ordered packs 1,2,3 and 4 (but in BR livery)
You're correct Mick, Rapido not Rails
Yeah, but mine are on order with Rails. 15% cheaper
I confirm that I have pre-ordered from Rails, like you, as I mentioned in my earlier post on this subject.
However, I will not be paying VAT, so I will be paying 20% less than you.
Ner, ner, na ner ner :)
Quote from: PGN on January 23, 2023, 05:55:22 PM
Thanks joe ... that takes me to their website, but I don't see anything there about transfers ...
Rapido sell wagons, not transfers
Quote from: joe cassidy on January 23, 2023, 08:27:33 PM
I confirm that I have pre-ordered from Rails, like you, as I mentioned in my earlier post on this subject.
However, I will not be paying VAT, so I will be paying 20% less than you.
Ner, ner, na ner ner :)
But you'll have to pay the French TVA and import duties, same as here in Holland.
I would have preferred to pay VAT and no import fees or worse BTW (Dutch VAT) for second hand items :*(
Railtec Transfers do Caledonian Railway, North British Railway and S&DJR freight transfers and S&DDJR locomotive transfers.
Stuart