I'm not a British modeller. Well not any more but I used to be.
I had a nosey around the Bachmann stall and saw this.
Absolutely unreal!!!!! Who in their right mind will pay £374.00 for an N Gauge model? And if you are prepared to pay this, you must REALLY want this Strathclyde 101!!!!! This is more money than some people earn in a week!
Have a word with yourselves Bachmann.
Andy
UK
And Dapol are planning the complete mock Blue Pullman HST 11 car set for £495.
Then of course you have to buy all those Hunt magnetic couplings else the Mk III coaches will come uncoupled.
Who would be a modeller these days.
Bob
I really wanted as Strathclyde 101... :-[
That is with sound though...
Quote from: texhorse on September 11, 2022, 06:36:58 PM
I'm not a British modeller. Well not any more but I used to be.
I had a nosey around the Bachmann stall and saw this.
Absolutely unreal!!!!! Who in their right mind will pay £374.00 for an N Gauge model? And if you are prepared to pay this, you must REALLY want this Strathclyde 101!!!!! This is more money than some people earn in a week!
Have a word with yourselves Bachmann.
Andy
UK
Ugh, well thanks to the clickbait title I'm here. But what's your point? Purchase isn't mandatory. What's the right price for it? Are you the arbiter of pricing? Plenty of people have no job, so are you saying £5 is too much by that logic? What if people want to save up for one?
I spoke with Mech Models, who've recently sold a Southern Pacific AC-12 for £800. Without sound. Second hand.
Will make sure I consult you on all future purchases to ensure I'm in 'my right mind'.
Quote from: texhorse on September 11, 2022, 06:36:58 PM
Who in their right mind will pay £374.00 for an N Gauge model?
UK
I have paid that much in the past (and more) and I will again if I judge the model to be worth it *to me* based on quality, rarity and/or simply really attractive to own. It wouldn't be a Farish Strathclyde 101 as that has no interest to me, but some of the Continental N models I do buy and run have cost more than that. So have a couple of the CJM models I bought back in their heyday. I wouldn't consider myself not "in my right mind". It's a toy train, nothing forcing me to buy it.
For those that can afford it , fine, if you think it's value for money. For those who can't afford it there's no alternative. These high prices are driving potential modelers away from the hobby. This has been my hobby for all of my life but I can't afford to buy more stock. I'm reaching the stage where I'm going to put all I have in a box and chuck it.
Or sell some of your lesser used items for the increased second hand values and buy the new bits you want.
I fail to see people being priced out of the hobby. Yes, maybe if you just have the latest models, sound fitted, and you have a shoestring budget it's hard. But model railways have the great advantage of negligible ongoing expense. Build layout. Buy trains. Done. A minuscule amount on maintaining locos and spares, you basically need never spend another penny. Compare this to so many hobbies and it's a huge advantage. Look at the price of consoles and games, young people aren't being priced out. People new to the hobby don't remember 'the halcyon days' so aren't in a position to moan about prices.
Nick nails it for me, I will appraise each model on merit and decide what I want to pay. I don't care what anyone else thinks is the 'right' price, I have the power of independent thought.
But that's as bad as whinging motorsport costs are driving potential newcomers into it.
Costs are costs if you can't afford it, tough! It's a hobby at the end of the day, no one HAS to model Railways but look at other hobbies
Golf
Fishing
Flying
Model aircraft / trucks / cars
Yachting
Surfing
Power kiting
Kayaking
Classic cars
I do quite a few of these and not one of them is cheap but no ones got a gun to my head forcing me to do any of them
Quote from: njee20 on September 11, 2022, 07:56:51 PM
Quote from: texhorse on September 11, 2022, 06:36:58 PM
I'm not a British modeller. Well not any more but I used to be.
I had a nosey around the Bachmann stall and saw this.
Absolutely unreal!!!!! Who in their right mind will pay £374.00 for an N Gauge model? And if you are prepared to pay this, you must REALLY want this Strathclyde 101!!!!! This is more money than some people earn in a week!
Have a word with yourselves Bachmann.
Andy
UK
Ugh, well thanks to the clickbait title I'm here. But what's your point? Purchase isn't mandatory. What's the right price for it? Are you the arbiter of pricing? Plenty of people have no job, so are you saying £5 is too much by that logic? What if people want to save up for one?
I spoke with Mech Models, who've recently sold a Southern Pacific AC-12 for £800. Without sound. Second hand.
Will make sure I consult you on all future purchases to ensure I'm in 'my right mind'.
Hi Njee
Make sure you do consult me first, Mate!!!!! :D
My point isn't to pick fault with people who are in a position to spend all that money on a model. Rather it's a comment aimed at manufacturers to bring their prices down, not that they will while people are prepared to pay them!
Anyway, your comments made me laugh Buddy so thanks for that!
Andy
UK
Tiny production runs (relatively speaking) for the limited British N market, cost of tooling, cost and availability of materials and labour, demand for ever-increasing fine detail and DCC features... it all results in increasing prices. That's just the way it is now, the only way you'll see prices go down is manufacturers re-using old tooling and producing simplified models such as Hornby "Railroad", Arnold "Hobby" etc.
I may buy a few expensive rare models now and again as per my previous reply, but I still struggle with things like general run-of-the-mill German coaches costing more than £20 each brand new as that's the figure still lodged in my head from a couple of decades ago. Nowadays they're easily double that. Fortunately ebay is a great source of new and nearly-new bargains ;)
Quote from: texhorse on September 11, 2022, 09:33:11 PM
Hi Njee
Make sure you do consult me first, Mate!!!!! :D
My point isn't to pick fault with people who are in a position to spend all that money on a model. Rather it's a comment aimed at manufacturers to bring their prices down, not that they will while people are prepared to pay them!
Anyway, your comments made me laugh Buddy so thanks for that!
Andy
UK
But that isn't what you said. You said "who in their right mind would pay [that]". If that isn't picking fault with people then what is? That's not remotely the same as 'I think manufacturers should bring prices down', and again, what is the right price for that model? If £375 is lunacy, should it be £300? £250? Im genuinely interested to know what you think it should be. One presumes Farish have done some sums, and probably understand their margins a bit.
Everyone has different financial priorities. I'm sure you could spend £375 on a model if you really wanted, ok maybe you'd need to save up. People spend money on all sorts of things; drinking, smoking, mortgages, cars, childcare, other hobbies, home electronics etc etc. I don't understand why anyone is judged for what they choose to spend their money on.
Let's all calm down! It's a hobby, and we all have our own needs, and resources. Each according to his own?
To pay that sum for a model that could be mass produced seems a bit expensive, but it could be justified on limited editions or one offs , I have sold many models that have been expensive but less than 10 off each model I have made, in fact I now only produce 5 as the donor models are getting scarce and my eyesight is not up to standard, If you want to look up page 33 in the members gallery under the name of EAST ANGLIAN you can see some of my work and the layout will shortly be up for sale, due to health reasons and eyesight I shall sadly be leaving N Gauge , any member that will be visiting the WIGAN show would be welcome to visit my humble home to see my large collection of unique one off models,
To pay that sum for a model that could be mass produced
But how big is the market?
what are the development costs ?
How long to actually make a profit ( to reinvest)?
UK N Gauge is a minnow!
True its only a small market and it would depend on what they produced to recoup tooling costs,
I still don't see that any of that is of any relevance. If they were £5,000 if someone wanted to spend that then all power to them. I wouldn't. I have to wonder if people go into estate agents and rant about house prices.
Quote from: njee20 on September 12, 2022, 06:36:27 PM
I still don't see that any of that is of any relevance. If they were £5,000 if someone wanted to spend that then all power to them. I wouldn't. I have to wonder if people go into estate agents and rant about house prices.
It's taking a very large amount of willpower not to say
"Have you never read the XXXXX XXXX"
But I won't ;)
And your point is well made
Skyline2uk
There are a few issues here.
Firstly, we are coming to the end of cheap Chinese manufacturing. IIRC, Fleischmann have moved some production to Vietnam and Eastern Europe, but nonetheless it will be more expensive.
Secondly, UK models were very underpriced for many years, and Bachmann realised they could rebuild their margins by putting up their prices. I think the penny dropped with the OO gauge Blue Pullman. Model railways in the UK are a niche market which means low volumes and high margins to be financially worthwhile for businesses.
Thirdly, UK disposable incomes have stagnated over the last 15 years unlike many other rich countries. It is a case of people in this country being poorer relative to other advanced economies than we were back then.
Models in the 1970s were much poorer quality but much cheaper than today (after inflation). That is at a time of lower disposable incomes. The answer I am afraid is cough up or demand models which don't have hundreds of separate parts to be glued on by a far Eastern factory worker. Or model a railway with a larger market (i.e. USA or Japan) where manufacturers can offset a lower margin with a higher volume of sales.
Union Mills are a small company that seem to offer value for money on their models and produce small batches , and if the demand is there they produce more to suit their market so why cant the big boys do the same, granted the models are rather basic and not so well detailed but the average modeler can enhance them at a reasonable cost,
Huge difference between a "cottage industry" like UM and a large manufacturer with a number of brands and massive portfolio of product, all competing for production slots at the factory which require the production line to be set up for each batch.
As far as I know Union Mills is a one-man band. He doesn't need to employ sales, personnel, payroll, health and safety etc people who are essential to the running of a larger concern. As he does the manufacturing himself he has no need to travel to China periodically to liaise with the factory. It isn't possible to offer a large and varied range of complex products in this way because there aren't enough hours in a day.
I think both Nick and Ali make especially helpful points. In relation to Union Mills I should like to add the following:
The first is that the models, whilst absolutely excellent +++++ (and I rarely use anything else) do not have the same standards of detail or decoration that modellers have come to expect from other manufacturers. There is a recent video from Rapido Trains which addresses the manufacturing costs of detailed models. This video is on YouTube and there is a link to it on the Forum.
Secondly, Mr Heard carefully regulates his business to remain below the threshold for VAT. Given how much of the production is done in-house, the input tax liability, which needs to be paid for by models sold, is likely to be minimised. And, with no output tax, purchasers are saved a considerable sum. UK standard rate, at present, is 20% for example.
With best wishes
John
As usual, a lot of relevant points have been made.
Personally, over recent years I have curtailed my expenditure on Ngauge locomotives and coaches due to price inflation. Its not that I'm short of a few bob, I just feel the value has diminished.
I spent £70 at Tings this year, mainly on old kits at AA. Spending £4-500 at such a show would have been typical in years gone by.
I realise the N market has/ is becoming very niche. So I have have also changed to suit. I would rather spend money on a sound decoder and upgrade a few cherished models, rather than half heartedly just adding to the collection. You pays your money and makes your choice.
Quote from: honestjudge on September 14, 2022, 09:16:39 AM
As usual, a lot of relevant points have been made.
At the end of the day, we all have to decide what an item is worth to us in our own little world. What is 'silly money' to one person, could be a bargain to another. I know I have paid over the odds for an item I particularly wanted. As honestjudge puts it -
Quote from: honestjudge on September 14, 2022, 09:16:39 AM
You pays your money and makes your choice.
Hey, I bought a GWR railcar from you, in the wrong livery.... I love it! :thumbsup:
You smooth salesman, you ;D ;)
I would argue there are a number of different sub-markets in N gauge and that Farish and Union Mills are aimed at different sub sectors. Farish now go for very high end models at a premium price. The fact that they continue with this strategy suggests that it is successful. There are those that want models that are as close to perfect as possible and new tool Farish items certainly fit the bill. Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. I see both these strategies as being worthwhile and catering for differing interests in our broad hobby. Long may they both continue to do well. I think Revolution are also quite high end. Dapol occupy a sort of middle ground with well detailed models that are usually reasonably priced. Kato are in a simialr ball park with their 800. Rapido and Sonic probably sit somewhere between Dapol and Farish and are providing a very useful source of new tooling products. Just at the moment the us N gaugers are rather well looked after!
Most of my stock is Dapol or Farish but I expect to make purchases from Rapido, Revolution and Sonic during 2023. I must confess to baulking a little at some of the Farish prices but I can see the value of the detail; I have yet to buy a high end Farish item simply because they haven't yet produced anything that fits my needs. The new Farish 158 will make me think about replacing my early Farish 158, ok it will be expensive but you can see the work that has gone into it and therefore the value. I don't own any Union Mills locos yet. One day I might buy one but it will have to have quite a bit of detailing work done to it before it is allowed on my layout. That to me is the great thing about Union Mills - they are cheap enough and simple enough to make detailing and repainting worthwhile; after detailing and repainting you will end up with a better model than what you started with. Conversely there is a problem for the modeller with the latest Farish products; if you do any work on them other than much needed weathering, they will almost certainly be worse than when they came out of the box.
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 14, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
[...] Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. [...]
I think that's a very good analysis, thank you, Chris. Perhaps I can add another important factor, at least to me. Union Mills models are British-made. I like to think about which economies I support when indulging in discretionary purchases for my hobby.
With best wishes.
John
Quote from: Train Waiting on September 14, 2022, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 14, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
[...] Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. [...]
I think that's a very good analysis, thank you, Chris. Perhaps I can add another important factor, at least to me. Union Mills models are British-made. I like to think about which economies I support when indulging in discretionary purchases for my hobby.
With best wishes.
John
I always like to buy Peco wagons. British made, well priced and they look fine when trundling by.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on September 11, 2022, 09:52:02 PM
I still struggle with things like general run-of-the-mill German coaches costing more than £20 each brand new as that's the figure still lodged in my head from a couple of decades ago. Nowadays they're easily double that. Fortunately ebay is a great source of new and nearly-new bargains ;)
For example: Six vgc German coaches for 53 quid from Anoraks Anonymous at Tings
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/125/704-150922005725.jpeg)
Quote from: Train Waiting on September 14, 2022, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 14, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
[...] Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. [...]
I think that's a very good analysis, thank you, Chris. Perhaps I can add another important factor, at least to me. Union Mills models are British-made. I like to think about which economies I support when indulging in discretionary purchases for my hobby.
With best wishes.
John
The Isle of Man isn't part of Great Britain, it is a Crown dependency and also a tax haven.
Like most of us, if not the vast majority I have bought and continue to buy Peco products.
I have certainly warmed to them in recent times on account of them producing in house, here in England. Their M.D. said something like he could see no benefit from having goods produced the other side of the World.
SO many companies were quick to move production of a plethora of goods to Asian producers, saying they could no longer afford to have goods made in the U.K.
Peco however has remained a U.K. producer, providing ongoing employment for Devon locals.
As an aside, M&S closed contracts with a whole load of British garment manufacturers, which led to considerable job losses, my late Mother was one of them. M&S have plenty of men's casual shirts around the £40 price tag...made in for example Vietnam. I have to wonder what they pay for a shirt to be manufactured there, just a few quid I imagine.
Getting back to our model railways, with the increased production costs in China, and transportation, surely many aspects of production could be returned to the U.K.? If Peco can do it then surely others can?
I imagine as their profit margins decrease some will start to think about scurrying back to the U.K.
I think this topic has been discussed many times and the belief that manufacturers will rush back to the UK is complete dream world.
The products made in OUR hobby in the UK N gauge are let's be truthful 'lacking much required detail' the peco wagons have undergone a chassis redevelopment which is to be released very shortly but they are still a country mile off Graham Farish and Revolution for detail.
Union Mills are producing bulletproof locos but not exquisite out of the box, I'm sure the lack of skilled minature labour in this market is the driving force behind keeping manufacturers in China where the skills, expertise and tooling is, getting that lot into the UK is no easy task!!
Britain was expensive to manufacture in last year, when we have every industry struggling with current energy prices the hope of setting up a factory to produce 2 or 3 thousand tiny scale models to turn a profit are just not possible.
This topic was started with disbelief that a farish model would cost nearly £400, make that in the UK and see what price tag gets dropped on it then!
Unfortunate but a sign of the times
Quote from: trkilliman on September 15, 2022, 10:05:17 AM
Getting back to our model railways, with the increased production costs in China, and transportation, surely many aspects of production could be returned to the U.K.? If Peco can do it then surely others can?
I imagine as their profit margins decrease some will start to think about scurrying back to the U.K.
@trkilliman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2838) and all
it's not long now until the NGF Virtual Exhibition, it is worth listening to our interview with PECO on various subjects, which may help in answering a few of the statements raised in this thread.
I have quite a few Farish wagons, quite a few Peco wagons, a small number of Revolution and Dapol wagons and just one Sonic wagon. While people sometimes comment on my locos nobody has ever said "oh those Revolution wagons are fantastic " or "those Peco wagons let the whole train down". That's why nowadays I tend to choose the cheaper Peco wagons (circa £10 each) ahead of other brands (£18 to £25 for a similar wagon).
On the other hand I have just bought some Farish conflats at £21.20 rather than the Peco ones at £13.78. The Farish wagons were exactly what I wanted and I am happy to pay the extra for something that is exactly right for me. They are very good models and I didn't even wince at the price.
I would guess the UK is the last place our models would be manufactured in by those currently made in China, and am sure the likes of India or Vietnam would be looked at before this country :hmmm:
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 15, 2022, 01:08:27 PM
On the other hand I have just bought some Farish conflats at £21.20 rather than the Peco ones at £13.78. The Farish wagons were exactly what I wanted.
This is the thing. If you want it and can afford it, you will buy it.
Apropos of nothing, I just bought a Farish 3-plank wagon for £7 on EBay, £11 inc P&P. I wanted it as a match truck for my forthcoming NGS Cowans Sheldon crane. It was the right design of wagon in the photo that I found of the crane I have pre-ordered. They are over £15 new. I got it cheap. Happy bunny!