Suggestions please for suitable chassis, or how to repair axle boxes on GraFar 4 wheel coaches?
I've got some more 4 wheelers coming, and need to replace or repair the axle boxes, or replace the chassis. Ideal would be Dapol's 6 wheel chassis, but can't find any cheap chassis.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/1760-180722095111.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124245)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/1760-180722095336.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124246)
The old 1970s "U-bend" coupling version I see :) The plastic's probably starting to get a little brittle.
These old coaches are usually quite cheap on second hand stalls at shows.
It doesn't look like the wheels are about to drop out from the photos. What's wrong with them? Wheelsets can be changed without swapping the whole chassis.
Dapol's six wheel chassis from the Stove-R is available for £7.20 from the NGS Shop (https://www.ngsjoin.com/stove-r---6-wheel-chassis-only-ngsr0346-872-p.asp).
Another option might be a brake-van chassis. Peco's is probably the least expensive.
If the couplings are showing their age then they can be cut off and replaced with new ones from either Peco (NR-102 (https://peco-uk.com/products/2-couplings-and-pockets)) or Dapol (2A-000-014 (https://www.dapol.co.uk/2a-000-014-n-gauge-20-nem-pockets-for-easi-fit-magnetic-couplings-864)).
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on July 18, 2022, 12:01:52 PM
It doesn't look like the wheels are about to drop out from the photos. What's wrong with them? Wheelsets can be changed without swapping the whole chassis.
Dapol's six wheel chassis from the Stove-R is available for £7.20 from the NGS Shop (https://www.ngsjoin.com/stove-r---6-wheel-chassis-only-ngsr0346-872-p.asp).
Another option might be a brake-van chassis. Peco's is probably the least expensive.
If the couplings are showing their age then they can be cut off and replaced with new ones from either Peco (NR-102 (https://peco-uk.com/products/2-couplings-and-pockets)) or Dapol (2A-000-014 (https://www.dapol.co.uk/2a-000-014-n-gauge-20-nem-pockets-for-easi-fit-magnetic-couplings-864)).
Steven B.
Axle boxes are worn on a number of coaches, I've got around 30 4 wheel coaches. One has no couplings at all, two are Shredded Wheat. - and they just look good with 6 wheel chassis under them. I'm aware of the Dapol chassis on NGS
https://www.ngsjoin.com/stove-r---6-wheel-chassis-only-ngsr0346-872-p.asp (https://www.ngsjoin.com/stove-r---6-wheel-chassis-only-ngsr0346-872-p.asp)
Someone on Facebook offered to sell me some NGS Dapol chassis, but it's cheaper on NGS as I need a few. Peco chassis is a kit isn't it?
Are the GraFar coaches 10 ft chassis? The bodies are 64mm long
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 10:00:15 AM
The old 1970s "U-bend" coupling version I see :) The plastic's probably starting to get a little brittle.
These old coaches are usually quite cheap on second hand stalls at shows.
What do you class as cheap? I'm amazed that one seller is still trying "Buy it now" for £45
Quote from: mark ellis on July 18, 2022, 05:08:05 PM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 10:00:15 AM
The old 1970s "U-bend" coupling version I see :) The plastic's probably starting to get a little brittle.
These old coaches are usually quite cheap on second hand stalls at shows.
What do you class as cheap? I'm amazed that one seller is still trying "Buy it now" for £45
£10 or less. There are some rarer liveries which can command a bit more (eg. S&DJR blue?) but the standard liveries are still common. Looking at current ebay there are a few unboxed singles and pairs hovering at less than £5 current bidding, though of course you have to factor the postage on top.
What about the Shredded Wheat coaches - are they identical chassis moulding around the axleboxes? (I've not checked mine as they're buried somewhere in pile of stuff) I remember paying £1 each for those, the trouble is they have simple link and pin couplings IIRC so would need coupling pockets to be fitted.
What's the actual problem - have the axleboxes broken away?
The NGS 6 wheel chassis are the best bet (simplest, cheapest and an exact match for the length of the bodies).
It's slightly longer than the Peco 15ft chassis. One alternate option if you can't get the NGS chassis or want to stay with 4 wheels is to take a 15ft chassis and slice it down the middle, sticking a bit of plasticard in the middle to extend it to the right length.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 05:21:18 PM
£10 or less. There are some rarer liveries which can command a bit more (eg. S&DJR blue?) but the standard liveries are still common. Looking at current ebay there are a few unboxed singles and pairs hovering at less than £5 current bidding, though of course you have to factor the postage on top.
What about the Shredded Wheat coaches - are they identical chassis moulding around the axleboxes? (I've not checked mine as they're buried somewhere in pile of stuff) I remember paying £1 each for those, the trouble is they have simple link and pin couplings IIRC so would need coupling pockets to be fitted.
What's the actual problem - have the axleboxes broken away?
Axle boxes are worn, as in axles move, and move up as in chassis lower
Quote from: zwilnik on July 18, 2022, 05:30:49 PM
The NGS 6 wheel chassis are the best bet (simplest, cheapest and an exact match for the length of the bodies).
It's slightly longer than the Peco 15ft chassis. One alternate option if you can't get the NGS chassis or want to stay with 4 wheels is to take a 15ft chassis and slice it down the middle, sticking a bit of plasticard in the middle to extend it to the right length.
I thought the chassis was 10ft. They're 64 mm long bodies. I guess the Peco NR-121 B guards van chassis with the running rail is the correct 4 wheel chassis to use. Just a shame that Peco do such awful advertising images, it's a drawing rather than clear photos from different angles. Their website gets to me, seems their kits aren't the only thing that still stuck in the last millennium.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/1760-180722201454.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124254)
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 05:21:18 PM
£10 or less. There are some rarer liveries which can command a bit more (eg. S&DJR blue?) but the standard liveries are still common. Looking at current ebay there are a few unboxed singles and pairs hovering at less than £5 current bidding, though of course you have to factor the postage on top.
Go back in 6 days and have another look at those coaches currently listed at £2 - £3.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/1760-180722202227.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124255)
@mark ellis (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1760) yeah looking at recent completed listing some boxed ones go high, some sold by best offer (I wonder how much?) some re-list as they're priced too high, but I still see some singles and pairs sold for £10-£13-ish each including postage. eg. in May 3x original Grafar red boxed in great condition sold for £24.99 +£5 p&p.
As I say, if you manage to get to shows or swapmeets they can be found for £10 ish - always make an offer :)
Of course that may still be more than you want to pay if you only want the chassis so look out for the spare/repair and job-lot bundles :)
Quote from: mark ellis on July 18, 2022, 08:17:08 PM
Quote from: zwilnik on July 18, 2022, 05:30:49 PM
The NGS 6 wheel chassis are the best bet (simplest, cheapest and an exact match for the length of the bodies).
It's slightly longer than the Peco 15ft chassis. One alternate option if you can't get the NGS chassis or want to stay with 4 wheels is to take a 15ft chassis and slice it down the middle, sticking a bit of plasticard in the middle to extend it to the right length.
I thought the chassis was 10ft. They're 64 mm long bodies. I guess the Peco NR-121 B guards van chassis with the running rail is the correct 4 wheel chassis to use. Just a shame that Peco do such awful advertising images, it's a drawing rather than clear photos from different angles. Their website gets to me, seems their kits aren't the only thing that still stuck in the last millennium.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/1760-180722201454.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124254)
Peco make 10ft and 15ft wheelbase chassis. The Farish 4 wheel coach is a bit longer and is a 20ft wheelbase chassis (the body is 32ft scale length). The NGS Dapol 6 wheel chassis rather handily matches this size so is a great fit and makes the coaches 6 wheelers, which were more common for the later periods most of the actual locos are available for.
Both the Peco guards van chassis are too short, but can be chopped down the middle and extended. However it's easier to use their normal wagon chassis (same lengths) for a cut and shut job and add your own running boards from plasticard strip as otherwise you have to match the running boards you've chopped up.
For 6 wheelers I have used the Peco 15ft brake van chassis or rather 2. Cut a section from the middle of one and add one wheelset from the other. 3 chassis make 2 6 wheelers.
Quote from: mark ellis on July 18, 2022, 08:10:00 PM
Axle boxes are worn, as in axles move, and move up as in chassis lower
Have you tried fitting brass top-hat bearings? £4 for twenty from N Brass Loco:
https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html#BEARING (https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html#BEARING)
(part number 23818).
Peco also sell them (NR-91, RRP = £5.30).
Drill out the existing axle bearing holes to 2mm (usually, double check with your bearings). Glue the replacements in the hole making sure they're as square to the chassis as you can get. It's also possible to melt them in place by pushing them into the plastic using a clean hot soldering iron. I've never been brave enough to try the soldering iron method.
As others have mentioned, it's also possible to extend the Peco chassis - slice in the middle and fill in the missing solebar/chassis with plasticard. It's possible to get C channel strips that are about the right dimension.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on July 19, 2022, 08:57:21 AM
Have you tried fitting brass top-hat bearings? £4 for twenty from N Brass Loco:
https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html#BEARING (https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html#BEARING)
(part number 23818).
Peco also sell them (NR-91, RRP = £5.30).
Drill out the existing axle bearing holes to 2mm (usually, double check with your bearings).
I'm using the Peco ones in 3D printed coach chassis' - the "hat" part is 1mm diameter but I'm getting an easier fit using 1.2mm with less risk of breaking the axlebox print, should also leave more room for the glue.
I'm leaving the "brim" part flush with the axlebox inner face to keep the bearing cups nice and square to the face but if I wanted to recess that as well a very quick waving of the calipers implies that it's somewhere around 1.6-1.7mm diameter.
However, I have the advantage that I'm designing/printing the chassis' myself so I can set the bearings' spacing measurement as I choose, rather than having to work with an existing chassis.
Another alternative are these from Newman Miniatures: https://www.shapeways.com/product/L6YTWGWGE/n-gauge-6-wheel-chassis?optionId=198191994&li=shops (https://www.shapeways.com/product/L6YTWGWGE/n-gauge-6-wheel-chassis?optionId=198191994&li=shops)
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 08:37:38 PM
@mark ellis (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1760) yeah looking at recent completed listing some boxed ones go high, some sold by best offer (I wonder how much?) some re-list as they're priced too high, but I still see some singles and pairs sold for £10-£13-ish each including postage. eg. in May 3x original Grafar red boxed in great condition sold for £24.99 +£5 p&p.
As I say, if you manage to get to shows or swapmeets they can be found for £10 ish - always make an offer :)
...
I've seen the S&DJR coaches go for £100 before now
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/1760-260722083536.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124421)
Quote from: mark ellis on July 18, 2022, 05:08:05 PM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 10:00:15 AM
The old 1970s "U-bend" coupling version I see :) The plastic's probably starting to get a little brittle.
These old coaches are usually quite cheap on second hand stalls at shows.
What do you class as cheap? I'm amazed that one seller is still trying "Buy it now" for £45
If its a SDJR one, he'll probably get it.
LMS generally sell for £30 each, GWR £25 each. These are
VERY sought after coaches which, even in these financially difficult times, go for strong money.
Have you tried putting new Farish wheelsets (I.e. from latest Chinese production) in the axle boxes? I've done this on a number of different chassis (Parkside, Chivers, etc) and they work well due to the pinpoint end to the axle, much more sharp than other wheelsets. If you've got any new Farish stuff try popping one out and putting it in the old chassis.
Dave
Quote from: emjaybee on July 26, 2022, 11:55:46 AM
Quote from: mark ellis on July 18, 2022, 05:08:05 PM
What do you class as cheap? I'm amazed that one seller is still trying "Buy it now" for £45
If its a SDJR one, he'll probably get it.
LMS generally sell for £30 each, GWR £25 each. These are VERY sought after coaches which, even in these financially difficult times, go for strong money.
The real rarety is the Caledonian white/crimson livery. I'm not sure how few were produced, but I've never seen the Brake version in the flesh, and at least one made 3-figures on e-bay.
Teak seems the most common - always seem to be plenty at around the £10 mark.
FORGET the Dapol Stove R chassis ... I always mount these on the Fleischmann 6-wheel chassis.
Looks FAR better and has EXCELLENT running qualities.
Quote from: PLD on July 26, 2022, 07:37:14 PM
The real rarety is the Caledonian white/crimson livery. I'm not sure how few were produced, but I've never seen the Brake version in the flesh, and at least one made 3-figures on e-bay.
Teak seems the most common - always seem to be plenty at around the £10 mark.
[/quote]
Do you want a brake?
I've got a spare one floating around (grey roof not white ... but it can easily be switched out for a white one from a different coach.
I can also spare about 4 of the composites.
Tell me what you want to pay, and if it's sensible they're yours.
Quote from: PGN on July 29, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
FORGET the Dapol Stove R chassis ... I always mount these on the Fleischmann 6-wheel chassis.
Looks FAR better and has EXCELLENT running qualities.
Thats rather sweeping. I have no experience of the Fleischmann chassis, I have no issues withe the Dapol chassis but can you please explain whats the problem with it? Is the Fleischmann chassis readily available and how does it compare pricewise?
PS Theres no need to shout!!!
As it happens I've always interpreted the placing of three exclamation marks after such a reprimand as far more aggressive and shouty than putting single words in capital letters for emphasis ... a habit I developed in the days of dial-up connections when message board software was far more rudimentary. But let's not argue about peripheral issues.
The Fleischmann chassis is readily available on Ebay and elsewhere. It comes with a green continental coach body which is easily released using the fixing screws under the outer two axles (you need to remove the outer wheelsets to access them) and can generally be had for about half the price of a complete Stove R.
It doesn't have an enormous great battery box sticking down (most 6-wheel coaches, having been built in the days or oil and gas lamps, didn't tend to have them) and it does have footboards. The footboards are, however, held in place by a large plastic tab which slides up between the chassis and the coach side, and stay in place because frictional resistance overcomes gravitational attraction. Once you discard the Fleischmann bodies, you cannot use this method, so if your coach needs footboards the best way to mount them is to cut off the tabs and glue the vertical hanger brackets direct to the solebar. Care is needed here. The plastic of the solebar doesn't respond to liquid poly so you need to use cyano, and you must use it very sparingly as cyano will discolout the solebar if any leaks out beyond the hangers.
Mounting the body is a matter of smoothing the top of the chassis (there's a little locating "pip" in the centre which needs to be filed down) and gluing in place. Care needs to be taken to set it absolutely square because there are no locating aids and again, if using cyano you need to be aware that any surplus glue that gets onto the lower coach sides will discolour them.
Just to counter here. The Stove R chassis can be purchased, brand new, for £7.20 + postage for N Gauge Society members. So you don't need to buy second hand at all.
P.s. I didn't think he was shouting at all. I merely thought he was emphasising a couple of points. If it had all been in capitals, then, yes, that would have been shouting.
A previous post with some similar discussion.
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=45820.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=45820.0)
Mark
I assume that the Fleischmann coaches PGN has in mind are the Prrussian coaches 8092–8095. (There are other numbers from later production runs with better printing that would be more expensive.)
Like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195243263685 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195243263685)
But £7.20 for the Stove R chassis sounds like a good option.
Absolutely, Hiawotha ... that's the one.
I tend to buy them whenever I see them for a fiver ... which happens from time to time. I wouldn't pay £15.
£7.20 for a Stove R chassis is good ... certainly narrows the gap but I still don't like the battery box. I do have a rake of Farish 4 wheelers which I put on them for comparison purposes, and I prefer the running qualities of the Fleischmann chassis.
The 3 exclamation marks thing is a new one to me but then I'm not a prolific message boarder. I apologise for the reprimand.
Why not just cut the battery box off the Stove R chassis?
Quote from: tunneroner61 on July 30, 2022, 09:35:20 PM
I apologise for the reprimand.
None needed ... it's just different perspectives. Those of us who grew up with manual typewriters, where capitals were the
only way of adding emphasis, got used to using them in that way and old habits die hard.
There was no 1 key, either ... you needed to use a lower-case L to get a decent 1 (and those who were self-taught tended not to know this and used a capital I instead, which looked faintly ridiculous).
As for an exclamation mark ... you had to use an apostrophe, then backspace and put a full stop under it. You certainly didn't want to do that more than once at a time!
Y'all know that you can put text in bold to make it stand out, rather than caps ?
Quote from: mark ellis on July 18, 2022, 08:22:40 PM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 18, 2022, 05:21:18 PM
£10 or less. There are some rarer liveries which can command a bit more (eg. S&DJR blue?) but the standard liveries are still common. Looking at current ebay there are a few unboxed singles and pairs hovering at less than £5 current bidding, though of course you have to factor the postage on top.
Go back in 6 days and have another look at those coaches currently listed at £2 - £3.
Quote from: emjaybee on July 26, 2022, 11:55:46 AM
LMS generally sell for £30 each, GWR £25 each. These are VERY sought after coaches which, even in these financially difficult times, go for strong money.
I put an ebay watch on a couple of listings for unboxed Farish choc/cream 4-wheelers, ended 2nd Aug: one sold for around £16 with postage, the other for around £11.
It's the first generation ones moulded in plain coloured plastic with class number transfers for the doors that interest me most ... particularly the dark brown ones, as quite a lot of pre-grouping railways ran their stock in plain dark brown.
Sometime sthey can be had for a fiver, sometimes it's £20 a pop ... it all depends who else is in th emarketplace and interested when they come up.
Plain maroon and the GER "teak" are also of interest. Dark green have very few uses. The LSWR switched to a dark green coach livery in 1921, but the 6-wheelers will have been well down the priority list for getting it, and I suspect very few ever did (the Southern taking them out of service as quickly as they could, and probably without ever repainting ... )
Quote from: ntpntpntp on August 04, 2022, 11:14:36 AM
...
I put an ebay watch on a couple of listings for unboxed Farish choc/cream 4-wheelers, ended 2nd Aug: one sold for around £16 with postage, the other for around £11.
I think you're looking at the plain plastic of the ones in the very early sets.
But I definitely missed out on this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Gauge-Farish-4-Wheel-Coach-LNER-Teak-Composite-/394168422357?nma=true&si=dRtQQ4QDsBxM%252Bhb3d0A5wWfxLIA%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Gauge-Farish-4-Wheel-Coach-LNER-Teak-Composite-/394168422357?nma=true&si=dRtQQ4QDsBxM%252Bhb3d0A5wWfxLIA%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
If only I had more money
@mark ellis (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1760) nope, properly painted GW ones but yes early ones with U-bend couplings and plastic wheels. I have a couple of these myself somewhere.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Model-Brown-Cream-Small-Coach-In-N-Gauge-By-Graham-Farish-Unboxed-/125434125621 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Model-Brown-Cream-Small-Coach-In-N-Gauge-By-Graham-Farish-Unboxed-/125434125621)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/pfgAAOSwg0Bi28hV/s-l1600.jpg)
Wheels are easily switched out ... and if you're going to re-mount them on a 6 wheel chassis it really doesn't matter what wheels they're running because you're going to discard them anyway.