Hi all, not posted in ages - long story, short - layout on hold because we're moving later this year.
Still accumulating like crazy.
Anyway, can anyone tell me what wagons these are? Hoppers, yes but... ?
Image taken from late 80's peak district mining.
(https://i.ibb.co/b31gKPw/what-hopper.png)
They are similar to but not the same as these - https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/catalog/product/view/id/83588/s/gaugemaster-gm2410201 (https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/catalog/product/view/id/83588/s/gaugemaster-gm2410201)
To my eye, they look like the LMS I.C.I. bogie hoppers...
https://www.google.com/search?q=lms+ici+hoppers&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=isnv&sxsrf=ALiCzsaHGmMFytD7t_bkaFyG_FrC9W31Mg:1652015490980&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH_4Kk_c_3AhXOTcAKHbGCB24Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=360&bih=622&dpr=3#imgrc=hHlql76CZ602wM (https://www.google.com/search?q=lms+ici+hoppers&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=isnv&sxsrf=ALiCzsaHGmMFytD7t_bkaFyG_FrC9W31Mg:1652015490980&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH_4Kk_c_3AhXOTcAKHbGCB24Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=360&bih=622&dpr=3#imgrc=hHlql76CZ602wM)
Quote from: emjaybee on May 08, 2022, 02:13:12 PM
To my eye, they look like the LMS I.C.I. bogie hoppers...
I think you nailed it!
Let me guess, not available in N Gauge?
I just searched and only found a DIY version on Shapeways (not sure about the quality of those).
Good shout some history7 here
https://www.derbysulzers.com/5274.html (https://www.derbysulzers.com/5274.html)]https://www.derbysulzers.com/5274.html[/url] 8 I ve not seen any either . Unsure of the quality but https://www.shapeways.com/product/QHEJ3RD2R/ici-hopper-2mm (https://www.shapeways.com/product/QHEJ3RD2R/ici-hopper-2mm) willing to be corrected
The Shapeways print doesn't look particularly good. I've lost track of their materials, but that one looks to have some fairly defined layer lines, and I presume it's the "Smoothest" variant.
Hi
Ian Stoate did a resin model years ago which was quite reasonable but unfortunately no longer available.
Cheers
Paul
TOPS code PHV.
They were one of the last revenue earning, vacuum braked, wagons on the network (and probably one of the oldest).
They're on my wish list. I've got my fingers crossed that Revolution Trains do them at some point, otherwise it's a big scratch build job!
Steven B
I have a feeling that there was some muttering in the NGS committee about them being the next Society RTR wagon. Then they went for the rather disappointing, in my eyes, others obviously disagree, ferry wagon.
Quote from: njee20 on May 08, 2022, 02:44:32 PM
The Shapeways print doesn't look particularly good. I've lost track of their materials, but that one looks to have some fairly defined layer lines, and I presume it's the "Smoothest" variant.
I thought the same, very defined print markings.
I'm going to order the 'super fine' version just to see - I fear it won't be up to the mark though.
Quote from: Steven B on May 08, 2022, 06:33:56 PM
TOPS code PHV.
They were one of the last revenue earning, vacuum braked, wagons on the network (and probably one of the oldest).
They're on my wish list. I've got my fingers crossed that Revolution Trains do them at some point, otherwise it's a big scratch build job!
I've got enough to do without scratch building the bloody things! :D
Quote from: emjaybee on May 08, 2022, 07:14:23 PM
I have a feeling that there was some muttering in the NGS committee about them being the next Society RTR wagon. Then they went for the rather disappointing, in my eyes, others obviously disagree, ferry wagon.
Good to hear it's at least on their radar, so fingers crossed they do a version.
Quote from: Ted on May 09, 2022, 10:56:46 AM
Quote from: Steven B on May 08, 2022, 06:33:56 PM
TOPS code PHV.
They were one of the last revenue earning, vacuum braked, wagons on the network (and probably one of the oldest).
They're on my wish list. I've got my fingers crossed that Revolution Trains do them at some point, otherwise it's a big scratch build job!
I've got enough to do without scratch building the bloody things! :D
Quote from: emjaybee on May 08, 2022, 07:14:23 PM
I have a feeling that there was some muttering in the NGS committee about them being the next Society RTR wagon. Then they went for the rather disappointing, in my eyes, others obviously disagree, ferry wagon.
Good to hear it's at least on their radar, so fingers crossed they do a version.
I suspect it'll be a loooooong way down the road if at all.
Bear in mind the NGS is not a commercial entity, any rolling stock they decide to produce has to have a broad appeal to members, and pass muster with the committee.
Personally, I'd love to have 8 or so myself. If there was enough of a case for them, it's possible that someone like RevolutioN could be persuaded to look at them, but that would mean they would need to be commercially viable. They were in service for 60+ years, but only in a limited area.
The other option is to find someone to do 3D prints, but there's donkey work to do in the 3D CAD, and multiple test prints before anything would be deemed acceptable.
Your last option is to scratch build them. To my eye, there's lots of straight lines and flat surfaces, and it may well be that there is a similar/suitable rtr chassis available under some other vehicle.
I'm after the John Summers iron ore wagons, which are very similar. This page is informative: https://paul3715.tripod.com/hopper.htm
But still based in the North West, so limited appeal, presumably.
I think the ICI hoppers would make an attractive model, but I can confirm that at the moment they aren't on our radar.
I'm hopeful members will like the next few models we announce, they are certainly interesting subjects!
ATB,
Richard (NGS PDO)
Quote from: montyburns1982 on May 09, 2022, 06:24:08 PM
I think the ICI hoppers would make an attractive model, but I can confirm that at the moment they aren't on our radar.
I'm hopeful members will like the next few models we announce, they are certainly interesting subjects!
ATB,
Richard (NGS PDO)
Forgive me Richard, were they considered at one time or did I imagine it?
Hi there I vaguely remember there being some discussion but before my time I'm afraid.
I'm pretty sure you'll see these hoppers at some point from a manufacturer, the pools of wagons in particular continues to shrink.
I've heard from a previous committee member that the ICI hopper has been considered in the past.
Despite their long life, I suspect the small region of operation counted against them (unlike most NGS kits/RTR which could be seen country wide).
I think they'd be ideal for Revolution or perhaps Rapido's modus operandi.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on May 10, 2022, 09:04:23 AM
I've heard from a previous committee member that the ICI hopper has been considered in the past.
Despite their long life, I suspect the small region of operation counted against them (unlike most NGS kits/RTR which could be seen country wide).
I think they'd be ideal for Revolution or perhaps Rapido's modus operandi.
Steven B.
And much like MGRs - I need a
lot of wagons. 100's of the bloody things, if not - dare I say it - thousands.
Of course, Farish has been promising a re-run of HAAs for years now... "coming soon!" :(
@Ted (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6946)
Peco also do the HAA, but at least at Hatton's are 'awaited'.
Other stockists are available........ :)
Martyn
On the subject of hoppers, what makes these so expensive on ebay etc?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/3310-100522102508.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=122626)
Quote from: Catsick on May 10, 2022, 10:25:57 AM
On the subject of hoppers, what makes these so expensive on ebay etc?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/3310-100522102508.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=122626)
The fact that they're very sought after, and no longer made.
Good ol' market forces.
Thanks emjaybee :)
Quote from: martyn on May 10, 2022, 09:56:16 AM
@Ted (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6946)
Peco also do the HAA, but at least at Hatton's are 'awaited'.
Other stockists are available........ :)
Martyn
I was under the impression the Peco aren't as nice (slightly less detail) and use plastic wheels?
Quote from: emjaybee on May 10, 2022, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: Catsick on May 10, 2022, 10:25:57 AM
On the subject of hoppers, what makes these so expensive on ebay etc?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/3310-100522102508.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=122626)
The fact that they're very sought after, and no longer made.
Good ol' market forces.
I paid good money for my rake - but you only live once!
Quote from: Catsick on May 10, 2022, 10:25:57 AM
On the subject of hoppers, what makes these so expensive on ebay etc?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/3310-100522102508.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=122626)
Hi
The alternative is the NGS kit which can be modified into a Sealion by adding the vacuum cylinders. I didn't bother changing the vertical side strengtheners on my first six but I have a plan to change them for the next six which if it works I will then go back and modify the originals.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/982-100522114950.jpeg)
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: Ted on May 10, 2022, 11:06:47 AM
I was under the impression the Peco aren't as nice (slightly less detail) and use plastic wheels?
Apart from the wheels there's very little to distinguish the Peco and Farish HAA. I have a rake of each and frankly I'd be just as happy with just one or the other.
With the HAA there's also the choice of the old Minitrix version. It stands up very well against the newer models, especially once the silver pizza cutter wheels have been replaced.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on May 10, 2022, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: Ted on May 10, 2022, 11:06:47 AM
I was under the impression the Peco aren't as nice (slightly less detail) and use plastic wheels?
Apart from the wheels there's very little to distinguish the Peco and Farish HAA. I have a rake of each and frankly I'd be just as happy with just one or the other.
I've just ordered 1 to compare (I should have just done that in the first place)! :)
Quote from: Steven B on May 10, 2022, 09:04:23 AM
I've heard from a previous committee member that the ICI hopper has been considered in the past.
Despite their long life, I suspect the small region of operation counted against them (unlike most NGS kits/RTR which could be seen country wide).
I think they'd be ideal for Revolution or perhaps Rapido's modus operandi.
Steven B.
Limited geographical spread is one of the reasons I'm not feeling the ICI hoppers as an NGS product.
Keep an eye out in the next newsletter/journal where I try and give a bit more insight into the selection and development of NGS Kits and RTR.
Quote from: PaulCheffus on May 10, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Quote from: Catsick on May 10, 2022, 10:25:57 AM
On the subject of hoppers, what makes these so expensive on ebay etc?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/3310-100522102508.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=122626)
Hi
The alternative is the NGS kit which can be modified into a Sealion by adding the vacuum cylinders. I didn't bother changing the vertical side strengtheners on my first six but I have a plan to change them for the next six which if it works I will then go back and modify the originals.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/122/982-100522114950.jpeg)
Cheers
Paul
Great job on the kit Paul. I have a half started one. I must confess the etches defeated me pretty quickly and I rapidly lost motivation. I wish the Farish ones were still available.
Must get mine listed for extortionate price lol :P
Quote from: montyburns1982 on May 10, 2022, 10:42:49 PM
Limited geographical spread is one of the reasons I'm not feeling the ICI hoppers as an NGS product.
Keep an eye out in the next newsletter/journal where I try and give a bit more insight into the selection and development of NGS Kits and RTR.
Can I ask, what does it cost (money and time) to produce a model wagon?
If you don't/can't share specifics - a ballpark would be interesting to know.
A quick search and guessing would be costs can be astronomical depending on the complexity of the model. Time to get the model from design stage to storefront that depends on how accurate you want it, who it gets tendered/contracted to to create the kit, moulds, plans etc.
The recent Hornby documentary gave a good idea of the processes/duration involved in creating kits & rtr rolling stock altho they may have hidden the actual costs involved.
Or to sum it up ???
I specifically meant NGS products, not the main manufacturer ready to run items. :)
yup :)
It still doesn't answer the question, but I'd consider doing a 3D print if it was of interest. IIRC the NGS do those bogies.
The cost of tooling won't differ regardless of if Bachmann, Dapol or the NGS are doing it. The NGS will have lower overheads as the research done by Society members will be done for free.
For a basic wagon I believe you'd be looking at upwards of $10k. Prices will depend on the hardness of the tooling (hard tools last longer but cost more to make) together with the complexity (i.e. the number of parts that make up each mold), and the number of variations (e.g. nose end details) you decide to tool up.
If you're a member, the NGS accounts should provide a rough cost guide for a small loco.
Rapido and Peco have published videos showing some of the tooling process.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on May 11, 2022, 04:28:03 PM
The cost of tooling won't differ regardless of if Bachmann, Dapol or the NGS are doing it. The NGS will have lower overheads as the research done by Society members will be done for free.
For a basic wagon I believe you'd be looking at upwards of $10k. Prices will depend on the hardness of the tooling (hard tools last longer but cost more to make) together with the complexity (i.e. the number of parts that make up each mold), and the number of variations (e.g. nose end details) you decide to tool up.
If you're a member, the NGS accounts should provide a rough cost guide for a small loco.
Rapido and Peco have published videos showing some of the tooling process.
Steven B.
The cost of tooling depends if you intend to either produce kits which would be moulded from 2D inserts or RTR tooling which would be more complex incorporating various movement such as lifters, sliders, interlocks, gates and pin arrangement etc. As for hardened inserts that's not a costly process as most inserts today are Vacuum hardened to around 50 -55 Rockwell and capable of very high outputs.
The bottom line with all tooling that has to be seriously considered, is it viable?
Then of course there is crowd funding which I confess to not know much about.... but I know a man that does! ;)