Hi All,
I have not been playing trains for what seems ages, as I have been up to other stuff ..... I'll let you know what in another thread ;)
As part of a buying spree though, I am after a 5 car rake of BR Maroon Hawksworth coaches. They do however seem to be quite hard to find :worried:
I have a full brake for the back end
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/5755-031221161750-1169202452.jpeg)
And this brake second corridor for the front end ......
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/5755-031221161751-1169212020.jpeg)
I am just looking for 3 coaches to go in the middle ;)
I have tracked one of these 2nd class corridors down .....
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/5755-031221162713-1169221473.jpeg)
Does anyone have any suggestions for 2 more to make up the rake of 5 please. I am guessing one more of these, and a first class ?
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
Rightly or wrongly I have:-
374-512 x 2
374-537 x 1
374-562 x 1
374-585 x 1
374-586 x 1
All maroon except 374-585 which is crimson & cream
Thanks Mick,
That confirms what I thought I needed, and what I have managed to find :D :D :D
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
I would suggest another second and brake composite. A short train like this would not usually need a first coach nor a full brake, so the latter would likely be for van traffic and would be detached from the rake at some point. The formation would thus be BCK/SK/SK/BCK with the full brake marshalled at one or other end to allow easy removal.
Other than for express trains the steam-era WR often mixed and matched coaches from different periods, so you could use a Dapol Collett coach or two instead of Hawksworths - but be aware that Farish and Dapol versions of BR liveries use different shades that look odd mixed together.
Alternatively you could mix in a Mk1, but these weren't common on WR secondary services until well into the 60s.
Hi Longbow,
Many thanks for that info, it was really helpful :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup:
As the coaches are not available any more some (particularly brake composites) are impossible to find, so I think this would work ......
BSK / SK / SK / CK / BSK and as you suggest the full brake (which I already have) at the end for easy removal.
I'll get them ordered up after breakfast :D
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
That looks a reasonable rake.
Not always, but BCKs tended to be used as through coaches where a train was split or joined for different destinations en route, eg ACE.
Martyn
Hi Martyn,
Many thanks for that :thumbsup: and thanks again longbow for the suggestion of the formation :D
As a model maker coming into the hobby, rather than a railway person I do struggle with knowing what fits with what, and the sort of loco that should be pulling it ;)
It's always nice to get confirmation that I am buying the right stuff, especially with some coaches at nearly £40 a pop :confused1:
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
The CK would be my choice, sandwiched between BSK and SK pairs either side.
Outside of the main expresses, the CK was probably the most common form of providing first class seating - more so than you normally see modelled.
Steven B
Yes, go for the rake as suggested by Steven B, especially as Farish didn't do a Hawksworth BCK!!!!
Indeed - my mistake. So Stevie B's suggestion provides the necessary smidge of first class accommodation.
:thankyousign:
Cheers guys,
Thank you all for your help :D
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
Quote from: Phoenix on December 03, 2021, 04:31:14 PM
Hi All,
I have not been playing trains for what seems ages, as I have been up to other stuff ..... I'll let you know what in another thread ;)
As part of a buying spree though, I am after a 5 car rake of BR Maroon Hawksworth coaches. They do however seem to be quite hard to find :worried:
I have a full brake for the back end
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/5755-031221161750-1169202452.jpeg)
And this brake second corridor for the front end ......
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/5755-031221161751-1169212020.jpeg)
I am just looking for 3 coaches to go in the middle ;)
I have tracked one of these 2nd class corridors down .....
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/116/5755-031221162713-1169221473.jpeg)
Does anyone have any suggestions for 2 more to make up the rake of 5 please. I am guessing one more of these, and a first class ?
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
You might find some of the information in this post helpful:
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29863.msg337111#msg337111 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29863.msg337111#msg337111)
I bought the BachFar 4 blood & custard models for a good price, then purchased 2 maroon Dapol Colletts to make up the basic 5-coach formation described, retaining the BG for milk train use. Perhaps not too Rule 1ish for the late Fifties.
:beers:
Hi Longbow,
A few points about parts of your post are interesting me, don't know if you can please direct me to any links about WR Parcels Trains in the late Fifties, in particular Paddington - Carmarthen route(s) where I suspect some practices may've still been pre-nationalisation ones the further west one travelled.
Quote from: longbow on December 04, 2021, 07:20:42 AM
A short train like this would not usually need a first coach nor a full brake, so the latter would likely be for van traffic and would be detached from the rake at some point.
My blood & custard BG had no legends applied to it, I was rather surprised to see the maroon one endorsed "Parcels Train Brake Van" a few months ago. This made me wonder if there were specific parcels trains to/from Paddington (my particular interest is in the Carmarthen area), and if so what types of vehicles might be used.
Quote from: longbow on December 04, 2021, 07:20:42 AM
... you could use a Dapol Collett coach or two instead of Hawksworths - but be aware that Farish and Dapol versions of BR liveries use different shades that look odd mixed together.
Maroon's not really my period, but having acquired a pair of maroon BachFar GUV's on eBay I compared them my maroon Dapol Colletts, there doesn't seem to be anywhere as much colour difference as there is between the blood & custard liveried BachFar and Dapol coaches. Of course I don't have any maroon Hawksworths to know for certain.
Quote from: longbow on December 04, 2021, 07:20:42 AM
Alternatively you could mix in a Mk1, but these weren't common on WR secondary services until well into the 60s.
I have a vague recollection that the GW corridor connectors needed an adaptor to fit the BR ones, so adding a Mk1 would need careful consideration - presumably one end of the train.
Slightly off-topic perhaps, but hopefully this will be of some interest to @Phoenix (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5755)
You can find carriage working notices on the web that will give you train formations, such as the 1953 12.45am Paddington-Carmarthen newspapers (4 siphon Gs, 4 brake vans, 2 vans, and 6 coaches) but these don't cover non-passenger workings.
@ten0G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=932)
Correct re the gangway adaptors.
The GWR and LMS used one version (British Standard, I think), the LNER, SR and BR another (British Pullman).
If GWR/LMS coaches were mixed with LNER/SR/BRmk1s then an adaptor had to be provided, unless one of the coaches was built with different gangways at each end as an 'adaptor' vehicle.
I note the OP's request for a five car train is now hovering at seven, bearing in mind he already has a BG ;)
Martyn
Quote from: ten0G on December 06, 2021, 10:26:06 PM
Quote from: longbow on December 04, 2021, 07:20:42 AM
Alternatively you could mix in a Mk1, but these weren't common on WR secondary services until well into the 60s.
I have a vague recollection that the GW corridor connectors needed an adaptor to fit the BR ones, so adding a Mk1 would need careful consideration - presumably one end of the train.
Slightly off-topic perhaps, but hopefully this will be of some interest to @Phoenix (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5755)
Your vague recollection is correct. The SR (Bulleid & Maunsell) and LNER (Gresley & Thompson) used buck-eye couplings and Pullman gangways meaning they could couple directly to a Mk1 (or Mk2).
The GWR and LMS used screw-link couplings and British Standard (BS) gangways.
The two types (Pullman and BS) weren't directly compatible without an adaptor plate. Photos of the adaptor can be found on Flickr:
https://flic.kr/p/7Ef6bA (https://flic.kr/p/7Ef6bA) (preserved LMS)
https://flic.kr/p/boXx2Y (https://flic.kr/p/boXx2Y) (GWR sleeper)
Their use was kept to a minimum. A mixed rake of say GWR and Mk1 would have the two types at either end of the train. e.g. GW GW GW Mk1 Mk1, rather than GW MK1 GW Mk1 GW.
LMS and GWR Buffet and restaurant cars could be found in the middle of Mk1 rakes, but these would generally be fixed formations where there was no requirement to split the train en-route. Where that requirement existed then the marshalling instructions made sure compatible types were at the ends needing to be joined/split at stations.
The alternative to an adaptor would be to lock both gangway doors out of use, preventing passengers from crossing through an unsecure gangway.
Steven B
Quote from: martyn on December 07, 2021, 08:59:20 AM
@ten0G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=932)
I note the OP's request for a five car train is now hovering at seven, bearing in mind he already has a BG ;)
Martyn
Martyn,
A few more than that if he opts for a later version of this one!
Quote from: longbow on December 06, 2021, 11:41:00 PM
the 1953 12.45am Paddington-Carmarthen newspapers (4 siphon Gs, 4 brake vans, 2 vans, and 6 coaches)
:laugh:
Hi All,
It's always fraught with danger asking people here what I need :D :D :D
still it is coming up to Christmas !
The current order is for 6 .... 2 arrived yesterday, so I am just waiting for a CK and one more SK
Thanks for all your help :thumbsup:
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
Quote from: ten0G on December 06, 2021, 10:26:06 PM
My blood & custard BG had no legends applied to it, I was rather surprised to see the maroon one endorsed "Parcels Train Brake Van" a few months ago. This made me wonder if there were specific parcels trains to/from Paddington (my particular interest is in the Carmarthen area), and if so what types of vehicles might be used.
"Parcels train brake van" was a very common branding to find on WR full brakes. Some vehicles had more specific branding, even going so far as to designate a particular route or even service. A couple of examples might be of interest to you. These are K41 full brakes as made by the NGS and now sold by Dapol.
147 "Swindon & Carmarthen": 28 Oct 1947.Photos in RCA2 Fig 375 & 376. This shows it also had "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN".
152 "Paddington & Carmarthen": 18 Mar 1947. AE West photo Apr 1951 shows coach in crimson & cream with left end W 152 "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" and "PADDINGTON AND CARMARTHEN".
I have just remembered that W152 is actually one of the models available RTR.
(https://images.hattons.co.uk/products/2P-000-302-PO02_20200724_3585535_Qty1_2.jpg)
The gold lettering does not show up particularly well against the cream in that photo but you can see it more clearly in the artwork.
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_09_2013/post-420-0-45200300-1379439204_thumb.jpg)
Hi Matt,
Really good to hear from you again .... It seems ages since you were last around. Hope all is well with you :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup:
I thought I would check on my maroon Full Brake, and it is indeed lettered as to what it is.
Really useful to a coach numpty like me ;) :-[ ;)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/117/5755-081221143025-1170492140.jpeg)
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
Quote from: Phoenix on December 08, 2021, 02:40:54 PM
Really good to hear from you again .... It seems ages since you were last around. Hope all is well with you :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup:
Hi Kevin,
Life has been really busy lately with not much time for modelling. It's nice to drop back in though. :thumbsup:
Hi Matt,
Thanks for your replies, as Kevin says, it's good to here from you.
I too would like to find out more about the authenticity of the wording on the Hawksworth vehicle, not least because it's the first time I've come across anything like this on a maroon vehicle. I had assumed the idea had been phased out when the livery changed from blood & custard.
:beers:
The 1953 carriage notices for the 12:54 Paddington-Carmarthen newspapers specifies brake van 124 or 154 plus brake van 876 or 877. There were a few other formations that required specific vans so presumably that was the basis for the route lettering.
As I recall newspaper trains were tightly timed and marshalled so as to speed unloading at intermediate stops. Porters and newspaper delivery vans would be ready and waiting as the train pulled in. Perhaps that's why, in an era before standardised stock, the railway wanted specific vans for this purpose.
Quote from: ten0G on December 08, 2021, 10:15:55 PM
I too would like to find out more about the authenticity of the wording on the Hawksworth vehicle, not least because it's the first time I've come across anything like this on a maroon vehicle. I had assumed the idea had been phased out when the livery changed from blood & custard.
The use of "Parcels Train Brake Van" branding does seem to have declined in the Maroon era somewhat but it was still fairly common. Here is a shot of W295 in 1966 with it still in place.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1725/42113724824_5566317e90_b.jpg)
W298 around the same time.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7892/47127735111_437362f3d9_b.jpg)
And W290
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46954566585_5755b6bf16_b.jpg)