It looks like more of the Dapol Sleepers have hit the shelves, there is much rumbling of how wrong Dapol have got it again, example the Intercity version comes without orange cant rail, missing the sleeper wording on two ends (should be on 4 ends on the body side) and there is mention the Intercity lettering is the wrong typeface.
It won't stop me buying some but it doesn't bode well if they have indeed got so much wrong.
(They supposedly went off a photograph that was of a long out of use coach and not one in revenue, regular service)
I really hope that was tongue in cheek, as this is the coach that was being referred to (on Facebook at least):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7143/6765973043_3ae25701c3_b.jpg)
Anyone using that as a reference for livery design needs sacking, immediately!
But yes, I've been very vocal on FB as this is yet another 'defeat from the jaws of victory' to my mind from Dapol, many of the errors they could have got right just as easily. We're not talking about "I can't believe they didn't tool for the dent in the 4th roof rib on that specific coach".
In no particular order:
- they're calling it "Executive", it's clearly Swallow (although the font in the picture is wrong; the serifs are too pronounced)
- should have silver window frames
- should say "sleeper" by each door, and the lettering is in the wrong place
- the white band is too thick
- the lower bodyside grey looks too white (and possibly the falcon grey is too dark, but both could be photo related)
- no cantrail stripe, but it's using the later OHLE warning labels
- CDL lights unpainted
Also why, in the photos at least, do only some of them have the WSP gear coloured orange? Even in their design artwork it's only some of them!?
Now obviously it's possible they've shared a pre-production shot with the retailers, but when Hatton's pose it alongside a photo of the real thing in their promotional literature it's a bit like a children's "spot the difference"! It is a shame. They've used the correct font before, why get it wrong now!? This is what I find so frustrating with Dapol. They also get loads of these things pointed out, and very rarely seem to heed them. The Digest is basically just an echo chamber of frustrated modellers. 50149 is a good example; the grills were the wrong colour, the nameplate was the wrong colour and the bodyside logo was the wrong size. These were pointed out repeatedly. The second version fixed the nameplate, and not the others. Surely it's no harder to get graphics the right size, if you're re-running the artwork anyway?
Of course none of it is insurmountable, and there are plenty of people saying "they're only £27 what did you expect" and "do some modelling then", neither of which I have much time for! Whilst I continually flirt with a 90s theme these are also too early for me, so I won't be buying them. If they were 'right' for my layout I'd still buy them, so clearly they're not that bad, just find it annoying. It also doesn't bode well for things like their 59, the livery samples of which, in OO, were dismal. Still, at least we've got Revolution...!
Mmm, just seen that myself. I note that the running number is the same as the one above. Surely, SURELY, though no one thought that was an appropriate condition for a prototype to copy?!
I'd like to see it alongside one of their swallow mk3s. I'm sure they're much warmer.
The two Intercity sleepers I ordered arrived today. Disappointing to see the lower body colour so far off shade, no orange contrails, no silver finish around the windows and missing graphics and painted details.
Really a very poor model in all, what are Dapol playing at with this offering.
In two minds to send back to the retailer due to the quality of this model, but may hold onto only down the reasonable price of £25 each
:thumbsdown:
Apparently Ian Stoate at East Somerset Models is threatening to send his whole batch back as faulty and not fit for purpose dues to all the issues, as mentioned by Rabbitaway, above.
I really don't understand how they've got them sooo wrong!!!
I could understand if they'd mistakenly said they were Executive instead of Swallow, but they're neither, they're a sort of half way house.
Thank god I only ordered the BR Blue ones, which haven't materialised yet.
Cheers
Neal.
The last I saw on FB he had rejected the whole batch and returned them. We can debate the colours until the cows come home, but things like the font being so wrong is totally inexcusable IMO.
I don't have any interest in these sleepers, but I do have a Dapol Pacer.
It makes me wonder if some of these "mistakes" are quite deliberate compromises.
"We know it's not right but if we correct it, the price will have to go up, and then people will moan that they are too expensive"
I've read on here and RMWEB people proposing that all the detail from Revolution, Farish, et al is a waste of money and that they'd be hap[pier with cheaper less detailed, and perhaps less accurate models.
I also suspect that there are a lot of modellers out there, who never or rarely check their rolling stock against prototype photos and rely on memory.
Regards,
John P
But again... the wrong font? They've had it right on 30 products, how have they now got it wrong? Who provided that artwork?!
Picked up one as an add on to an order with intention to backdate it to Executive.
It's like it's Seen a ghost!
I wonder if there was a prototype they copied the paint from.
It is as if the beige has faded to white.
The red is interesting aswell, too dark. When Chris Green was at
INTERCITY they experimented with a darker red and it's far closer to that.
Quote from: jpendle on October 11, 2021, 02:48:16 PM
I don't have any interest in these sleepers, but I do have a Dapol Pacer.
It makes me wonder if some of these "mistakes" are quite deliberate compromises.
"We know it's not right but if we correct it, the price will have to go up, and then people will moan that they are too expensive"
I've read on here and RMWEB people proposing that all the detail from Revolution, Farish, et al is a waste of money and that they'd be hap[pier with cheaper less detailed, and perhaps less accurate models.
I also suspect that there are a lot of modellers out there, who never or rarely check their rolling stock against prototype photos and rely on memory.
Regards,
John P
But the problems are with the paint job, it's not a compromise, it's wrong! It doesn't match what went before not what it should be.
Credit were credit is due Dapol have produced a coach which in terms of detail has captured what it needs too and looks the part . The Body tooling will contain compromise, as does the original Dapol mk3 , but it is "good enough" as it doesn't need to better the MK3 in the existing range.
I not sure I follow this idea that what is already one of the cheapest coaches still in production needs to be undermined by poor paint to keep it cheap.
Paint is problematic, i know in OO gauge there was lots of discuss and complaints where people were upset not because the colours were wrong but because when a manufacturer used the right colours it didn't match the wrong coaches!
(@jpendle Please don't take this as directed at you directly, It is not. I am not a member of RMWEB but I am a reader and you have summaried well some of the comments I disagree with!)
The Mk3 sleeper body is already a compromise - there are likely to be central door locking light moldings on the Blue/grey and all versions should have integral tail lights. The roof may also be incorrect.
The existing Mk3 range is full off similar compromises - loco hauled coaches have HST roof for example, whilst the buffet car is somewhat generic rather that producing the many different types that ran in the HST sets and loco-hauled rakes.
All these are compromises that keep the price down.
The bigger problem with the Intercity sleeper is there are problems with the colour and the font. Neither of which cost any more to get right. Dapol have the font type correct on their other Mk3s (and DVT and class 86) yet have got it wrong on this model. The colours used also do match what have gone before.
It's like painting an LNER A4 in GWR green and using LMS's font on the tender. It's a basic error that's been pointed out to them on the Dapol Digest and yet it's remained unchanged.
It's really frustrating that Dapol keep doing this. I'm half expecting that the GMPTE Pacer will have similar livery issues (wrong shade of brown and completely wrong colour for the roof from the pre-production images I've seen). I hope I'm wrong...
Steven B.
Something about a barge pole comes to mind.
Sorry Dapol, but this is just not good enough in this day and age.
All should reject it out of hand.
I am willing to accept some level of generic approach to keep these at a reasonable price but getting the colour shades so different from the other Intercity coaches is just not acceptable. When you put them in a rake of other Dapol Mk3 coaches the difference is glaring.
There is a debate if the beige is too rich on other Dapol and Farish coaches, but they need to be consistent, I do have some old Poole built Mk2s and they are a lot lighter than the current normal Mk3s, but again different shades from the sleepers.
Kato have shown the way with getting the detail against price right with their Class 800s by getting the decoration nicely done but omitting some detail. Why is this so difficult for Dapol?
I agree that the most annoying problems with these coaches are things that cost no more money to get right in the first place. I can accept compromised tooling to make it economically viable. Everything else is baffling to say the least.
As someone who works in product and graphic design (and has produced artwork and specified finishes dozens of times), I don't believe anyone should give Dapol an inch of slack for these.
Wjat I do not understand is that they have already done Mk3 coaching in this livery and got it right so why on earth did they get these so wrong? And that is without all the other issues with this release, who ever did their research, needs to have a long look at themselves and go back to serving burgers to let someone who is capable of doing the job correctly get on with sorting out your mess!!
I am glad that ESM sent theirs back because that includes my preorder which I would not have accepted anyway to be honest. These run together with other coaches which would only show up the colour mismatch even more.
Come on Dapol, get it sorted!!!
Best wishes
Simon
Back in the early release days of these models the tampo printing of "Inter City" on the blue grey Mk3 models was not quite straight. They sold them all off at a low price and reissued the models correctly.
Ideally this is something that Dapol should do with this release.
However, in the big bad world that is business survivability this has only happened once. Western Enterprise was released without a small yellow panel, for instance, but was not recalled.
The Gaugemaster 73142 in Executive livery was similarly hideous in terms of not matching anything previously issued.
I'm sure we can all list many similar issues.
Ho hum. I hope they get the colours right on the latest class 73s.
Best regards
Bob
They did a batch of buffered mk3s with "InterCity 125" lettering which were also sold off cheap. Don't remember the blue/grey ones I must admit.
I mean where to start on their livery howlers if we get into examples! I do think the market is sensitive to it. Their last GBRf 66 was a total joke. Completely wrong. They never officially sold it cheap, but it was one of the ones the Collector's Club were punting out for £50.
Their Pullman class 67 way not much better, the brown is totally wrong.
This is now all about how Dapol are going to deal with this situation.
Best wishes
Simon
It's a really nice coach and well priced. Shame about the livery application - the logo looks like Times New Roman Italic.
I've got one on order, so will see if there is anything I can do to fix things.
From looking at the finish on the ones delivered and on display on the Hatton's website, it is clear that the tampo printing set up for the silver window surrounds is part of the suite available, just not used on the Intercity version. Whether the omission was acceptable to Dapol, an omission in the finishing process or just not spotted soon enough, Dapol would have been well advised not to release them without recognising and explaining the omission in their publicity. The lettering font, colours etc. are specific to the model, but the silver window surrounds are a distinctive part of some of the liveries, and already provided for.
I have just seen the photos of the production blue grey version and it is a mess. Another model that will need practically a complete respray to correct major errors... :censored: :veryangry: :censored: :veryangry: :censored:
The FGW version appears to have brown swirls down the sides...
Quote from: captainelectra on December 10, 2021, 10:57:59 PM
The FGW version appears to have brown swirls down the sides...
Again one they made a reasonable attempt of (given the complexity in the scale) on their earliest releases, before the HST buffets regressed, whilst they simultaneously fixed other errors on that release. I don't understand how you can actually make things worse on a livery you have previously accomplished quite well, but here we are. Obviously my offer to check over livery artwork for future releases went unanswered. So I'm sure we'll be here again in no time given their acute inability to do things right. :doh:
Quote from: Calnefoxile on October 11, 2021, 09:52:01 AM
Thank god I only ordered the BR Blue ones, which haven't materialised yet.
Cheers
Neal.
Well I've seen the Blue/Grey ones and............they're pants!!!!
So that's my pre-order of 5 cancelled.
I know that the only issue is the livery application, especially the grey band, but it's just too much for me. To rectify it will need a pretty much complete respray, the grey band is too wide and too high, which pretty much deletes the Blue between the top of the grey and the roofline.
The only way Dapol are going to learn to have better Q&A is for us punters to reject stuff that isn't right.
Right off me soapbox now.
Regards
Neal.
The frustrating thing, of course, is that only a small proportion of the market will care. So they'll keep getting artwork approved by the blind work experience kid, because they can.
The frustration is that, yet again, it would have been as easy to get it right as wrong. This isn't a compromise in tooling, or limitations in printing. This is slapdash design. Obviously the offers of help fall on deaf ears too. Perhaps the livery guy is deaf as well as blind :worried:
from the Hattons website
https://www.hattons.co.uk/541727/dapol_2p_006_001_mk_3_slep_sleeper_pantry_10510_in_br_blue_and_grey_with_intercity_sleeper_brandi/stockdetail (https://www.hattons.co.uk/541727/dapol_2p_006_001_mk_3_slep_sleeper_pantry_10510_in_br_blue_and_grey_with_intercity_sleeper_brandi/stockdetail)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/117/311-201221130239.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=117478)
So not only should it say "Inter-City" it's in entirely the wrong place, should be more in line with the left hand edge of the window.
don't worry, it's Christmas, people will buy it.
and at least they did put buffers on it :'(
It's almost a match for 10713, currently used for volunteer accommodation at Kidderminster on the Severn Valley railway:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8506/8593107269_968874c711_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/e6kVpT)
10713 Kidderminster 300612 (https://flic.kr/p/e6kVpT) by Dan Adkins (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dan700/), on Flickr
Has anyone found any photos of the coach Dapol have modelled (10510) to see if it's correct for that coach (even if it's not typical for the era)?
Steven B
Quote from: njee20 on December 20, 2021, 12:37:28 PM
.. Perhaps the livery guy is deaf as well as blind :worried:
You've hit on something Dapol excel at... Inclusivity, Diversity and Equality. :D
Quote from: Steven B on December 20, 2021, 02:49:11 PM
It's almost a match for 10713, currently used for volunteer accommodation at Kidderminster on the Severn Valley railway:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8506/8593107269_968874c711_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/e6kVpT)
10713 Kidderminster 300612 (https://flic.kr/p/e6kVpT) by Dan Adkins (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dan700/), on Flickr
Has anyone found any photos of the coach Dapol have modelled (10510) to see if it's correct for that coach (even if it's not typical for the era)?
Steven B
No I failed to find a single photo of it, admittedly not looking very hard!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/117/9-211221085805.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=117497)
Dapol really should have come to Peterborough and used E10731 at Overton (formerly Ferry Meadows). They could have popped over to mine for a cup of tea at the same time :)
I thought I'd post this image to show what can be done (quite easily) to the blue/grey sleepers to improve their look. A strip of 6mm masking tape aligned with the bottom of the coach windows and some RailMatch BR blue paint and I ended up with this result.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/130/1706-260223135224.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=130260)