seems like its a one or two person club at the moment, but now its one more.
I want an n Pendolino, and I would prefer it if it was made by the Kato/Lemke folk but magicaly in 1/148. I want it to go at scale speeds of 225 kph, and I want it to come as one whole train.
Seems reasonable to me!
Well, the best express train in the world - the HST - has now been done properly by Dapol in various colour schemes, so once they've produced the rest maybe, just maybe, they'll get around to "lesser trains" like the pendo ;D
Paul
I agree with you Paul,the hst is the best train in the world.Not bothered about the Pendolino myself,so as long as an APT-P is produced in N,then they can do a Pendolino.After all,the APT was the first tilting train,and furthermore,the Pendolino was introduced when the tilting mechanism couldn't be used.What use was that?
Not sure if they use the tilting capability now though.
I saw the high speed train episode of Pete Waterman's series on Discovery Channel a while ago and he says the reason the APT-P failed was due to the tilting mechanism being too effective ie that it took all the sideways motion away from what passengers saw through the window and what their brains told their bodies what was actually happening,making them feel ropey and giving motion sickness,and also a lack of investment.I thought that the whole development project was substantially more than Concorde,but as it turned out,it was only £50 million,Concorde was over a billion.
How wrong was I?
Still,if only and all that,BR had an appropriate development budget for the APT,maybe they would be banging up the East Coast Main Line instead of the horrid looking 225 sets we have running alongside the wonderful hst's.
Now that in my opinion would be something.
Pete
:Class37: :NGaugersRule:
I just want Dapol to say exactly what their plans are for the Pendolino - 'on the back burner' is so vague. I wrote to Farish asking them to produce it and that said that Dapol were doing it. If Dapol are not going to do it, why don't they say so and perhaps Farish might do one - particularly as they have dipped their toe into current EMUs with the Desiro. There was also the rumour that Dapol had cooled on doing the Pendolino because of poor sales of their electric locos - I think this is the wrong as the Pendolino is an easily recognisable EMU that non-railway experts have travelled on, kids love it and that could attract people to N. A different market than the electric locos.
I also wrote to Kato but did not get a reply (probably because I wrote it in English). Got to admit they would be my first choice to make it. If I won the lottery, I'd commission them to make an NGF branded Pendolino train pack and starter set.
I've given up hope of it appearing, kept my OO one and bought an oval of Kato HO to run it on.
i guess all we can do is to keep nudging Dapol to produce one (and a Javelin and Electrostar too - or am I being greedy!)
Agree with every word Pete :thumbsup:
Under investment, added to this country's knack of completely slating something the moment it doesn't work 100%, killed the APT prematurely. Would have been great to have a fleet of those running around, but then the HST would also be long gone by now if we did, so maybe it's just as well ;)
Quote from: Pendy on April 29, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
I just want Dapol to say exactly what their plans are for the Pendolino - 'on the back burner' is so vague. I wrote to Farish asking them to produce it and that said that Dapol were doing it. If Dapol are not going to do it, why don't they say so and perhaps Farish might do one - particularly as they have dipped their toe into current EMUs with the Desiro.
Business tactics ;) Dapol say they're doing it to stop Farish getting in first, then put it on the "back burner" so they're not committed. Sounds like they're scared that if Farish got there first they might make a mint out of it! :-\
Paul
Dapol may also be waiting to see what happens with the sales of the Desiro - which would be a more valid comparison than the electric locos. I hope Farish chose the right version to model (there are far more 4 coach SWT versions in real life).
Quote from: Pendy on April 29, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
i guess all we can do is to keep nudging Dapol to produce one (and a Javelin and Electrostar too - or am I being greedy!)
Still likely to be quicker to make your own. 'Ringroad' has both an N gauge Javelin and a Pendolino. The Javelin construction was covered pretty well on rmweb by its maker, and used the very similar Japanese unit (Kato Kamome 885) by the same company with the roof changed and vinyls. The Kato unit (and thus the conversion) even tilts on corners.
Alan
I think that OP writes in full knowledge that what he is asking for is probably not too realistic commercially. Not too many modellers - even in N - have the space to run an 11-car Pendolino or even a 9-car. So it is a limited market.
I don't remember the exact formation but it would probably be more realistic to sell a 5-car set with 2-car add-on packs.
One factor in Dapol's reluctance will be poor sales of the 00 version. When will the manufacturers realise (Jouef made the same mistake with its various TGVs) that most modellers will not buy the 4-car motor vehicle set until they are sure that there are going to be the other cars to make up a complete train?
I remember a Jouef rep coming into my shop to proudly present a new TGV model (Eurostar, I think). I told him what a good job they had made of it. So how many, he asked, was I going to order. None, I replied, until you bring out the intermediate cars.
Quote from: JosephP on April 29, 2012, 10:11:49 AM
manufacturers realise (Jouef made the same mistake with its various TGVs)
And Dapol with the HST....
Quote from: Pendy on April 29, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
i guess all we can do is to keep nudging Dapol to produce one (and a Javelin and Electrostar too - or am I being greedy!)
I am just hoping that the kit makers come out with Electrostars & Networkers. As I can't see either GF or Dapol doing RTR versions. I kinda hoped that the GF 4CEP would prove a comercial basis for these but don't know how profitable it has turned out to be and thus how interested the major manufacturers would be in producing them..
:Class414:
I'll admit i'm waiting patiently for Dapol to actually do something with the Pendolino. In my head my larger layout represents a section of WCML so naturally i could do with a couple to go with my Pretendolino rake and Desiro's when released. Having said that i am in no great rush for them, i know my layout will take me a while to do and there are other items due out soon i've got my eye on.
It was my understanding that Dapol were waiting to see how the Farish Blue Pullman sold (Complete train, over £200). And mentioning Farish i wouldn't even dream of them doing a Pendo, purely as Hornby do the OO Version.
I think a Javelin would be a poor choice by a manufacturer, the Hornby one in OO has sold very very poorly and obviously there is limited space in which they could run. As with other units it's just a matter of time before they'll be done, We've got the 2EPB, MLV, MPV to come through the shrinking ray with Bachmann and who knows what Dapol will announce.
Oh and i may (though work) have found out something Bachmann may be doing in OO (and to follow in N) but i'm not saying anything more apart from some of you will be happy by it.
Ollie
Quote from: Ollie3440 on April 29, 2012, 11:24:33 AM
Oh and i may (though work) have found out something Bachmann may be doing in OO (and to follow in N) but i'm not saying anything more apart from some of you will be happy by it.
Ollie
Is it something that an current day EMU fan would be interested in?
I'm not saying anything more, you'll have to be patient.
Ollie
Quote from: EtchedPixels on April 29, 2012, 10:09:57 AM
Still likely to be quicker to make your own. 'Ringroad' has both an N gauge Javelin and a Pendolino. The Javelin construction was covered pretty well on rmweb by its maker, and used the very similar Japanese unit (Kato Kamome 885) by the same company with the roof changed and vinyls. The Kato unit (and thus the conversion) even tilts on corners.
Alan
If any of you are looking for this post on RMWeb it is in the old database which is currently off-line because of performance issues.
Thanks Alan for the info though!
Quote from: Ollie3440 on April 29, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
I'm not saying anything more, you'll have to be patient.
Ollie
Well, by a process of elimination, you have mentioned that the Javelin is not a good choice and the Pendolino will not be produced by Farish. You have not mentioned the APT, HST, networkers and the Electrostar. The HST is not new news so it can't be that and Farish have been making Turbostars (not a million miles away from Electrostars)
You are right - will have to be patient but a South Eastern Electrostar (for Greybeema) and a Southern one for me would be grand!
The Class 390 is such an integral part of modern WCML operations, that an N Gauge model of some description is essential, particularly as the Class 350 EMU is soon to be available and there is a good supply of accompanying modern locos and freight stock.
The big problem with the 390 is she sheer amount of variety with the vehicles, meaning that producing conventional tooling would be so expensive that you would need to sell thousands (unlikely in N) or the resulting model would be massively expensive.
Quote from: Pendy on April 29, 2012, 11:55:54 AM
Quote from: Ollie3440 on April 29, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
I'm not saying anything more, you'll have to be patient.
Ollie
You are right - will have to be patient but a South Eastern Electrostar (for Greybeema) and a Southern one for me would be grand!
I'll sign up for that straight away... Ready here - Credit Card in hand.... :computersmile:
:Class414:
Quote from: captainelectra on April 29, 2012, 12:15:39 PM
The Class 390 is such an integral part of modern WCML operations, that an N Gauge model of some description is essential, particularly as the Class 350 EMU is soon to be available and there is a good supply of accompanying modern locos and freight stock.
The big problem with the 390 is she sheer amount of variety with the vehicles, meaning that producing conventional tooling would be so expensive that you would need to sell thousands (unlikely in N) or the resulting model would be massively expensive.
How expensive is massively expensive? - after all for an 8 coach Dapol HST, you'd be looking at £250 - 130 for the book set and 120 for 6 coaches (if they are 20 quid each)
I'm not suggesting £250 is too much for that- and I appreciate that the Pendolino is limited to one livery minimizing the veriety and the numbers people would buy.
But I am quite agnorant of the way these things work.
[quote author=tgv_obsessed link=topic=5409.msg60163#msg60163
I'm not suggesting £250 is too much for that- and I appreciate that the Pendolino is limited to one livery minimizing the veriety and the numbers people would buy.
[/quote]
A huge part of the cost of a plastic RTR model is the moulding tools. One reason that Japanese models seem so cheap is that they get divide this cost by a vast horde of Japanese modellers while the UK market is small.
The HST as produced basically consists of two types of vehicle. The power cars, and the coaches. Dapol have done some detail changes between vehicle types which adds to the cost. When they've finished they'll also have put out a generic RFM (wrong for many of the liveries) and a TGS, so that's a total of four vehicle types plus some detail bits plus extra interior. Even doing that they are compromising some of the designs a spot.
The Blue Pullman basically consists of two of each of three types of coach. That's going to be pricy as is. The Pendolino design has pretty much every coach different, so it would be very pricy using current technologies.
So if you want one you are going to have to scratch build it or work with others to develop a kit I suspect.
A scratchbuillt one may not be the best model in the world, but the odds are it'll at least be the second best N gauge pendolino ever made 8)
Thanks for the explanation EP. I'd be happy with Josephs suggestion of a 5 car set to start with or even a sort of 'Railroad' equivalent.
Would I be right in thinking that an Electrostar would be easier to mass produce? If it came to a choice of liveries, I would choose the Southeastern as well (as there is nothing in that livery and I do have a Southern Turbostar)
Ollie, appreciate you can't give anything away about what Bachmann might produce. It's just fun to speculate!
Quote from: Pendy on April 29, 2012, 05:27:46 PM
Thanks for the explanation EP. I'd be happy with Josephs suggestion of a 5 car set to start with or even a sort of 'Railroad' equivalent.
I agree- 5 cars would be fine, though 6 cars would be better (2 less than a Eurostar, 2 more than a 4cep) and I would truly adore 'railroad' equivalent of lots of n stuff
but the reasons for its non production are very good ones, it does make me hope that whatever trains they use on HS2 will also be established shinkansens so at least I'll be able to fat control them !!!
I've mailed Dave Jones at Dapol with some of my thoughts and a few ideas about the 390.
Thanks Adam, for doing that. I also see that you have vinyls for a Southern Electrostar in T gauge and very smart it looks too! I've not got into T gauge but a shelf layout based on Arundel might be fun. Have to see how the finances work out first though!
You're bang on as usual about the APT Paul,however,I think what you say about the hst being a distant memory is very true,as BR initially introduced it as a stop gap until the APT was fully rolled out and run reliably.Obviously this wasn't to be so we still have the eternally wonderful hst,even though they have lost the Valenta engines.
Wouldn't they sound better with a big turbo bolted on to the top making the whistle of the old engines.
Alan,I don't know whether you look on rmweb from time to time,but Ring Road is sadly no more.It was scrapped a while ago and the chap who built it is well on his way with a new layout called Cross Street.I haven't looked at rmweb for a few weeks now,but he was almost complete with the build in order to show it at an exhibition.I'll have to have a look later to see how far he's got with it but as with Ring Road,he's scratch built all the buildings and scenery and it looks stunning,honestly it really does.
Now Ollie,listen to me,you're a very naughty boy,you can't drop us nuggets of information about rumoured releases and then keep quiet about it.
Even though I have a oo gauge APT,I am getting desparate for one in n gauge,or two!
On my next visit,I will have to ask about this,or you could pm me.
I promise my lips will be sealed. :angel:
Pete
:Class37: :NGaugersRule:
PS.Can we have an APT emoticon?
Pretty please ;)
Quote from: Pete Mc on April 29, 2012, 08:03:42 PM
PS.Can we have an APT emoticon?
Pretty please ;)
Your wish etc etc etc :smiley-laughing:
(http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/Scotsoft/NGF/Emoticons/c1923edf.jpg)
Quote from: Pete Mc on April 29, 2012, 08:03:42 PM
Ring Road is sadly no more.It was scrapped a while ago and the chap who built it is well on his way with a new layout called Cross Street.
Wow! Fancy scrapping it! I loved Ring Road - it was an excellent modern scratch built layout. As much for the buildings as a layout. What a shame to break it up!
Can't wait to see Cross Street if he's building on his learning from Ring Road. Can you post us a link to save us hours of searching on RMWeb? :thumbsup: :beers:
Mark,if you go onto the homepage,Cross Street is in one of the photo links at the very top of the page,well it was when I last looked anyway.
For the last six months or so,I've been browsing using my android phone,so have no idea how to do anything like pasting a link.
Failing the photo link option,if you are a registered rmweb member,you could try the search method.
When I this,I can't tell you how good this layout is,honestly.Although it is present day image,he has got this n gauge malarky down to a tee.I'm sure he is using his current stock as well.
I will warn you though,it is a very long thread and will take some committed reading,at 21 or so pages long it is a very comprehensive layout thread with tips galore and some quite breathtaking photography to boot.
Only other layouts that come up to the same standards as this are by Elvinley,Southernboy and a few select others.
Hope you manage to check it out.
Pete
:Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Having just looked at the Cross Street thread,I can confirm the chap building it has completed it and its 14 pages long,not the 20 odd I at first said,still a long read though.
Pete
:Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Quote from: JosephP on April 29, 2012, 10:11:49 AM
I remember a Jouef rep coming into my shop to proudly present a new TGV model (Eurostar, I think). I told him what a good job they had made of it. So how many, he asked, was I going to order. None, I replied, until you bring out the intermediate cars.
And isn't this part of the problem ?
How can we purchasers buy stuff if you retailers won't stock it ? ??? But the mfrs
do need to take a better hold on things ...
Mike
Quote from: Pendy on April 29, 2012, 05:27:46 PM
Would I be right in thinking that an Electrostar would be easier to mass produce? If it came to a choice of liveries, I would choose the Southeastern as well (as there is nothing in that livery and I do have a Southern Turbostar)
Certainly easier than a Pendolino. The fact that Farish are relasing the 350 Desiro shows they believe there is a market for this type of unit. However I would not expect to see an ElectroStar from Farish for some time (if ever). Their past releases show they like to maximise return from their investments by releasing related units that can re-use certain elements. Their new range of DMUs all use basically the same 57' chassis and mechanism. Based on this I would expect to see a 450 Desiro following on from the 350 and a 2-EPB scaled down from 00 long before they start looking at completely new families of units to exploit.
Dapol are shy of electrics after the poor sales of the 86. It is a loco lots of people clamoured loudly for yet it did not shift particularly well. Perhaps the lack of electric and BR blue liveries hurt sales.
I suspect that the Desiro and Blue Pullman will determine the liklihood of further electric releases from Dapol.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on April 29, 2012, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: JosephP on April 29, 2012, 10:11:49 AM
manufacturers realise (Jouef made the same mistake with its various TGVs)
And Dapol with the HST....
Manufacurers are damned if they do and damned if they don't on this one. Release the stuff all in one go and you get people complaining that they cannot afford a complete 8-car train in one go. Then they complain that by the time they have enough cash, some vehicles have sold out and they can no longer buy a complete rake.
If they stagger their releases then some people hold off buying because of the uncertainty of being able to ever get a complete rake. Then people who held off complain that by the time the catering vehicles are released, you can no longer get some of the other vehicles in the matching livery.
It really is impossible to please everyone with large, fixed-rake trains.
Quote from: Karhedron on May 02, 2012, 04:00:45 PM
Dapol are shy of electrics after the poor sales of the 86. It is a loco lots of people clamoured loudly for yet it did not shift particularly well. Perhaps the lack of electric and BR blue liveries hurt sales.
The 86 is available in blue in two numbers
http://www.ekmpowershop7.com/ekmps/shops/cmmodels/dapol-br-blue-class-86-86241-glenfiddich-limited-edition-of-125-models-951-p.asp (http://www.ekmpowershop7.com/ekmps/shops/cmmodels/dapol-br-blue-class-86-86241-glenfiddich-limited-edition-of-125-models-951-p.asp)
Dave Jones e-mailed me to confirm just that - there just isn't the demand for overhead locos or units to justify the costs for tooling up a Pendolino in N within the next couple of years.
We can all say "wouldn't it be nice if..." but if there aren't enough folk willing to put their hands in their pockets, it simply isn't viable.
Who knows, if the Baccy 350 is a success, things may change. I have my doubts about how well this unit will sell, as it is confined to the WCML and is fairly recent. IMHO, a 319 would be a much better model commercially.
Quote from: captainelectra on May 02, 2012, 07:30:56 PM
Who knows, if the Baccy 350 is a success, things may change. I have my doubts about how well this unit will sell, as it is confined to the WCML and is fairly recent. IMHO, a 319 would be a much better model commercially.
I'm happy they've done a 350 and in London Midland but then I'm maybe biased on the subject as it'll go nicely with the 323.
I am surprised they picked an overhead not a 3rd rail unit. I wonder if they'll revisit that later. I imagine there will be a few 350 conversions around too as the 360 and 450 are going to be fairly simple conversions. A few vinyls I suspect 8)
The thought had never crossed my mind... :angel:
Quote from: captainelectra on May 02, 2012, 07:30:56 PM
Dave Jones e-mailed me to confirm just that - there just isn't the demand for overhead locos or units to justify the costs for tooling up a Pendolino in N within the next couple of years.
We can all say "wouldn't it be nice if..." but if there aren't enough folk willing to put their hands in their pockets, it simply isn't viable.
Who knows, if the Baccy 350 is a success, things may change. I have my doubts about how well this unit will sell, as it is confined to the WCML and is fairly recent. IMHO, a 319 would be a much better model commercially.
Really appreciate you doing this Captain Electra. It is not good news :( but at least we know.
If any brave soul fancies knocking up some 3D printed Pendolino shells, I'll be happy to do some vinyls.
If my lottery numbers come up tonight then I'll commission someone to knock up the shells and fit Kato motors etc to them then all they need is your vinyls.
Quote from: captainelectra on May 02, 2012, 08:47:05 PM
If any brave soul fancies knocking up some 3D printed Pendolino shells, I'll be happy to do some vinyls.
I've never seen any drawings for the Pendolino - which is a common problem with a lot of modern stock. The manufacturers like to make money from everything they can
Quote from: captainelectra on May 02, 2012, 07:30:56 PM
IMHO, a 319 would be a much better model commercially.
I agree, quite a range of liveries, over 20 years in service and suitable for both 3rd rail and OHEL. The Bratchell model in 00 costs about £280 for an RTM model and then you still need to add your own motor. Bachmann have shown that a good 4-car MU will sell well at around the £150 mark so that would clearly need to be the target price for anyone who wanted to sell in volumes.
Farish already have the Mk3 suburban bodyshell from the sprinter but don't seem to interested in progressing that particular family. It is a shame as I suspect it may put Dapol off from looking at them. Then again Dapol have a 20m chassis from the 121 so maybe they can be persuaded to do something with it beyond DMUs. They must be looking carefully at Farish's EMU releases. If they continue to sell it can only be a matter of time before they decide they want a piece of the action.
Quote from: Pete Mc on April 29, 2012, 04:30:39 AM
my edit... Still,if only and all that,BR had an appropriate development budget for the APT,maybe they would be banging up the East Coast Main Line instead of the horrid looking 225 sets we have running alongside the wonderful hst's.
Now that in my opinion would be something.
Pete
:Class37: :NGaugersRule:
I might be wrong but I think I remember reading many years ago that the IC225 was indeed the production version of the ill fated APT experiment with some of the more 'troublesome' elements removed? (ie articulated bogies, hydro-kinetic brake system and the tilting mechanism although the profile of the 225's allowed the latter to be retro-fitted if/as required...)
The reason that there was no apparent link to the APT was down to 'marketing'.
And if my memory is wrong I apologise in advance.
Got to admit, I probably wouldn't buy a 319 as prefer the sleek style of the Electrostar. However I didn't realise that the 319 has the same top speed and it also set the new London to Brighton fastest speed for the route (I think the Electrostar has beaten it now though). So although it is looks like a slow-coach, it is actually quite fast.
Quite agree Eddie after all how many operate at 140 mph, even though parts of the ECML were signalled for 140 mph.
Hi Dodger
This link seems to back up my memory of the article (I have a vague recollection it was in 'Rail' Magazine?), and also gives an explanation why the IC225 doesn't run to its full potential although I had always assumed it was because it would need functioning tilting mechanism to run at 140/150mph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_225 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_225)
regards
EddieA
Hi Eddie
I could be totally wrong and doing an injustice to many ex-colleagues but I believe the ride of the coaches may have been unsatisafactory at 140 mph.
I know for a fact that the track geometry tolerances were more extreme on the ECML when electrified.
Dodger
Just been looking at articles on the Italian NTV service and the AGV in May's Modern Railways. They look to be stunning trains. Would love to see them in N - particularly from Kato.
Quote from: Pendy on May 07, 2012, 07:05:37 PM
Just been looking at articles on the Italian NTV service and the AGV in May's Modern Railways. They look to be stunning trains. Would love to see them in N - particularly from Kato.
speaking of the italian pendolino, I remember travelling on it in the early 1990s- was an excellent highlight of interailing - we had to pay a supplement to travel like that.
almost made up for not traveling on a tgv on that trip.
Hi Dodger
As I remember, initial reports of the running properties of the 225 MK4 coaches were maybe less than favourable at even 125mph(?) so 140 might have been considered optimistic.
But...
As an amateur I was only mentioning what I thought I remembered as regards the APT - and I saw it only once on trial and was blown away as it snaked through the curves. Who knows what a bit more money, or commitment, could have produced? (Probably getting into 'politics' here so maybe better not to go down that line...)
Back to models:-
Yup, I would like an IC225 train in GNER livery before it was 'disfigured', in my opinion, with the orange doors. But I do realise the reasons for that change.
I would also like a TGV set as having travelled on these several times in France they also have the 'wow factor'. Probably the best comment was from my other half who had fallen asleep as we left Reims back to Paris and woke up half way through the journey: "we're not going very fast" Having counted the mile (kilometre) posts I was able to tell her that the train was going at full pelt... But the ride was so smooth that the passengers would not realise the speed.
Only thing I need is a railway shed big enough....
EddieA