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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr Sprue on March 13, 2021, 04:21:34 PM

Title: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Mr Sprue on March 13, 2021, 04:21:34 PM
A recent discussion with a couple of pals of mine about the switchover to electric cars in 2030 raised the concern of safety regarding pedestrians not being able to hear them. 

It transpires on the drawing board artificial noise of some kind is going to be possibly added to them so they can be heard in the distance.

So my mate Terry say's "if that's the case I want mine to sound like a V12 Ferrari". "Yeah okay then you have the money to buy a Tesla then?" Replies my other pal Mark.

So the question is next bounced off me, in which I replied "if I'm able to have the choice I would want my car to sound like it had a 1750hp English Electric 12CSVT diesel engine fitted to it, with a pair of brass Desilux air horns bolted to the roof !"  :)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Newportnobby on March 13, 2021, 04:27:20 PM
Mine will probably sound like a petrol engine, as a month or so before that law comes in I may replace my current petrol car with another.
Is there anyone who believes the infrastructure and support will be in place in time for the change?
Mind you, I probably won't need a car by then :uneasy:
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Mr Sprue on March 13, 2021, 04:29:47 PM
I'll be about 76 Mick, so still should be problem for other road users!  :)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: guest311 on March 13, 2021, 04:45:09 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 13, 2021, 04:27:20 PM
Mine will probably sound like a petrol engine, as a month or so before that law comes in I may replace my current petrol car with another.
Is there anyone who believes the infrastructure and support will be in place in time for the change?
Mind you, I probably won't need a car by then :uneasy:

and you'll get a good deal, cause dealers will need to get rid of their petrol and diesel models before the ban.

I used to drive from here up to our house on the Moray coast in one hit, stopping for a few coffees on the way, and an hour's snooze at the last services before Glasgow.

guess with an electric car I'd need to allow a week. :-X
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Ditape on March 13, 2021, 04:47:58 PM
No way will the infrastructure be up to us all going electric by 2030, As long as I can get diesel I will stick with my Merc 300h diesel hybrid. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: guest311 on March 13, 2021, 04:51:00 PM
personally I still believe the idea of a petrol / diesel engine [small] driving a genny which charges the batteries at the most efficient and environmentally friendly rate is the way to go.

oh, hang on, isn't that how diesel locos work  :D

I remember the proper top gear team doing a comparison years ago between the environmental impacts of building, running for 10 years, and then scrapping a Range Rover V8 petrol and Toyota Prius.....

overall..

the Rangie won hands down.

so we'll forget that shall we, it won't fit in with the 'correct thinking' >:(
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 13, 2021, 04:56:59 PM
My car already makes fake noise in the cabin to make it sound more sporty than it is!

Whilst I conceptually don't disagree with the need to make cars noisier how do people deal with things like cyclists which are potentially silent?!

If i did have an electric car I'd settle for a louder 'electric' sound, so I could at least pretend I was in Back to the Future 2. I agree that the infrastructure will never be there. How do you deal with anyone who lives in flats, or frankly has to rely on on-street parking?
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Mr Sprue on March 13, 2021, 05:02:07 PM
Have to admit a DeLorean hadn't crossed my mind, now that would be pretty cool! :hmmm: :)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Ditape on March 13, 2021, 05:09:56 PM
I forgot that I live in a flat and share the carpark with 9 other residents I cannot see the freeholder installing enougth charging stations to keep us all mobile. So that's another reason to stick with my Diesel Hybrid for as long as I can.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Bob G on March 13, 2021, 05:13:34 PM
I want my next car to be powered by unobtanium.

Seriously, I had petrol all my life as I knew as a scientist it was the cleaner fuel compared with diesel, for local environmental impacts, that is.
My cars got more and more fuel efficient and exciting. Honda 1.8 VTI VTEC and then a Toyota VTEC Celica that did 45mpg.
I progressed ultimately to Mazda's RX8 Wankel engine so I could have a seriously sporty car to drive (and one I could afford) even if it only did 25mpg.

When I had bought the first one, I got all the evangelists telling me that I was destroying the ozone layer (wrong - I was generating a lot of CO2 per km, but never mind).
They didnt care about particulates then. It wasn't politicised like CO2 was.
I then got a second RX8 with even worse fuel economy. 16mpg. But it had lovely black alloys.

But it was time to slow down. I had trouble with the clutch pedal and had a bad left knee.
So I got an automatic BMW. It was delightful. It was a diesel. It was the only engine BMW bothered to supply it with.

Then the air quality brigade, after persuading me to sell my nice fast petrol car, as it was emitting too much CO2, told me I was now emitting particulates and killing everyone.
I of course knew this when I bought the car, but no-one was listening to me then.
So I still have a diesel.
It's the wrong engine and fuel for doing 25,000 miles in five years of ownership.
But the car is still lovely.

I'd like an electric car, or a plug in AND self-charging hybrid (why cant I have both?), but I want the infrastructure to support it. And I want the politics to support it. But most of all I want the science to support it. And that means longer battery life, lower risks of battery explosions or fires, and rapid charging.

The petrol engine is currently back in fashion, because electric is still too costly for most of us, but what is really needed is someone to de-politicise our energy policy and make it consistent and long term. Because only then will I be able to say I've got the right car with the right fuel that is right for the local environment and right for the planet.

Hmmmmm.  Lets go mine some unobtanium and destroy someone else's Eden.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: guest311 on March 13, 2021, 05:33:58 PM
much the same here, always had petrol cars or my favourite a V8 Landy county, but hen the politicians / scientists etc said I was a bad person, destorying the world using petrol, and diesel was what I should be driving.....
so like a good lad, I got a diesel, then another, now on a Volvo XC70, best car I've ever had, but now I'm a criminal again, destroying the world again, even though I took their advice  :'(

you just can't win.

wind power is best = oh birds fly into the blades and get killed  :-\

solar power = we'll pay you to put it on your roof = err no we won't now  :-\

Nuclear, now that is good =err no it's not  :-\

still, by next week we'll all be being told to drive cars fuelled by cow-dung / methane  :hmmm:

I GIVE UP
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: thebrighton on March 13, 2021, 05:50:41 PM
Quote from: Ditape on March 13, 2021, 05:09:56 PM
I forgot that I live in a flat and share the carpark with 9 other residents I cannot see the freeholder installing enougth charging stations to keep us all mobile. So that's another reason to stick with my Diesel Hybrid for as long as I can.
I can see purpose built flats with dedicated parking spaces being able to offer charging points but a large chunk of Eastbourne is old Victorian houses converted to flats where there is zero parking. It's a case of hoping to find a hole within walking distance of home so charging will be an impossibility.
Other issues I see already exists where there are public charging points. A couple of years back whilst attending an event at the NEC we needed to be there by 7am with a finish time of 7pm. 2 of my 'colleagues' have Tesla's so upon arrival parked by the charging points and plugged their cars in and there they stayed until the evening when they returned to them. Yep, there may be charging points available but they're useless if they can only charge one car a day!
I can't see there ever being the infastructure to support everyone having to have an electric car unless by 2030 there have been some considerable advances.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: TrevL on March 13, 2021, 06:35:08 PM
I'm doubtful there will be the infrastructure also. That's why a got a self charging hybrid a year ago.  It's a Toyota Auris, same engine/drive train as a Prius, and I'm really happy with it.  Totally silent except for tyre noise when on electric.  My son has a BMW 535e, also a hybrid, but plug in.  His makes a whirrring noise when on electric, the sound increases as the speed increases.  I believe the law changed in 2019 so electric/hybrid cars must be audible, at least here in the UK.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: chrism on March 13, 2021, 06:45:15 PM
Quote from: thebrighton on March 13, 2021, 05:50:41 PM
I can't see there ever being the infastructure to support everyone having to have an electric car unless by 2030 there have been some considerable advances.

Quote from: TrevL on March 13, 2021, 06:35:08 PM
I'm doubtful there will be the infrastructure also.

Even if there are sufficient charging points installed, from where is the massive increase required in electricity generation to come - especially if, as has been proposed, gas central heating has been outlawed for new builds and yet more electricity is needed to replace that?

Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: PLD on March 13, 2021, 07:07:02 PM
I'm with the school of thought that pure battery electric is ultimately going to be a dead end other than perhaps local short range delivery vehicles (e.g. milk floats!)
For the majority of private vehicles, some form of onboard generation using clean fuels such as the hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go. Current H-FC technology offers around 65-70% of the range of petrol for the same volume tank, similar refill times and converting existing fuel stations is not a massive job.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: thebrighton on March 13, 2021, 07:24:38 PM
Range will also need to be massively improved to make them viable. I've a mate in Bristol who came to visit at the beginning of last year and he had, I think, a ZOE. Being winter battery drain was worse so he had to stop for over an hour on the way and a quick top up about half an hour from here and then again on the way back to recharge.
Sorry, I can drive to Bristol and back on less than a tank of petrol and don't need to stop. Stopping 3 times and not just for a couple of minutes a goo will never sell electric to me. Sure petrol may cost more but not when you factor in the cost of an electric car. Things need to advance quickly or people will just keep their old petrol cars going for ever!
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 13, 2021, 07:42:12 PM
I want mine to sound like the HSTs used to sound. Proper valenta scream!  :laugh:

(https://media.tenor.com/images/1ddbbbdc44101e8a4716f5eb9d927b4b/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Newportnobby on March 13, 2021, 09:08:36 PM
I can recall dear old Clarkson debunking the myths about electric cars, not least that when the battery required replacing it was about £7000 at the time and, as he pointed out, by then the entire vehicle wouldn't be worth that.

And then, of course...................

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/107/264-130321210501-107518145.jpeg)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: stevewalker on March 14, 2021, 12:22:52 AM
Unless battery and charging technology improve dramatically or Hydrogen takes off, then plug-in hybrids seem the best bet. I could certainly make the majority of my day to day journeys on electric only (charging at home overnight), with no more than a 50 mile range,. However, I also need the flexibility to make longer journeys when required - even very long ones, at zero notice and with tight time constraints, making lengthy stops for a charge impossible.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: chrism on March 14, 2021, 06:34:15 AM
Quote from: stevewalker on March 14, 2021, 12:22:52 AM
Unless battery and charging technology improve dramatically or Hydrogen takes off, then plug-in hybrids seem the best bet. I could certainly make the majority of my day to day journeys on electric only (charging at home overnight), with no more than a 50 mile range,. However, I also need the flexibility to make longer journeys when required - even very long ones, at zero notice and with tight time constraints, making lengthy stops for a charge impossible.

To tempt me to buy an electric car (unless I'm forced to), it would have to have a minimum 300 mile range on a cold, wet winter's night and a decent topup, say to 70-80%, recharge in 15-20 minutes maximum - plus, of course, a good network of charging facilities that can provide that charge rate without excessive waiting for a charger to become available.

It would need to be of similar size to my present car and, preferably, not look naff. Hopefully the latter wouldn't be an issue, since a lot of the latest offerings are much the same as their petrol/diesel equivalents. The manufacturers seem to have stopped letting the designers have such a free hand to come up with abominations now.

Oh, and the price would have to be similar to that of the petrol/diesel equivalents.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: The Q on March 14, 2021, 07:54:16 AM
What will my next car sound like?
A diesel.
Why?
1, Since 2010 all new cars have been fitted with filters so particulates are not a problem.
2, Due to the way petrol cars are tuned to reduce other things and suit their catalytic converter some produce more NOx than diesel.
3, Better, MPG
4, As ICE are phased out diesel will be around longer, as there is not yet any proposal to get rid of Diesel lorry's.


I retire in 2 years, at that point a new car will be bought, which will probably be our last or second to last car, our last car we had 15years, this one by then will be 13. Unless prices come down a lot, it won't be a hybrid either.

An electric would require the following.
A 300 mile range, in mid winter with the heater on, at motorway speeds, with being able to charge to at least 75% within half an hour and that's at the end of my ownership not just when new..
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 08:32:51 AM
This is the oft cited reason for not getting an electric car, but how many people really do lots of spontaneous 300 mile journeys in winter? I've done 300 mile journeys twice in the last 15 years. Neither were spontaneous. It feels like people just want an excuse.

That said, I did look at hybrids when I bought a new car, but honestly I wanted something a bit quicker than most of the standard models, not that I'll ever use the performance!
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 08:38:24 AM
Quote from: chrism on March 14, 2021, 06:34:15 AM
To tempt me to buy an electric car (unless I'm forced to), it would have to have a minimum 300 mile range on a cold, wet winter's night and a decent topup, say to 70-80%, recharge in 15-20 minutes maximum - plus, of course, a good network of charging facilities that can provide that charge rate without excessive waiting for a charger to become available.

That is pretty much what the Tesla Model 3 Long Range version can do now with a superfast charger. Granted that is a top-end car but it is still under £50K. Give it 5-10 years and that sort of performance will be standard, not premium.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 08:40:27 AM
Quote from: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 08:32:51 AM
That said, I did look at hybrids when I bought a new car, but honestly I wanted something a bit quicker than most of the standard models, not that I'll ever use the performance!

Plug-in hybrids are a compromise. Depending on your PoV, they are either the best of both worlds or the worse. On the one hand you can do full battery power on short trips with the convenience so switch to ICE at a moment's notice when needed. The downside is that whichever power system you are using, you are lugging a dead engine and fuel/battery around.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 08:47:44 AM
Yes, of course. But the options for full EVs are too limited at the moment IMO. Conceptually I'd have Tesla, but they're still bloody expensive with crazy waiting lists. Other options are principally based on small city cars like the Renault Zoe and BMW i3. They're the perfect use for EVs, but I want something more akin to a normally family hatchback with a bit of interest, a "hot hatch" if one can stomach the marketing!

The new Audi e-Tron GT looks great, but they start from £81k!
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: chrism on March 14, 2021, 09:00:28 AM
Quote from: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 08:32:51 AM
This is the oft cited reason for not getting an electric car, but how many people really do lots of spontaneous 300 mile journeys in winter? I've done 300 mile journeys twice in the last 15 years. Neither were spontaneous. It feels like people just want an excuse.

No, I want the option to be able to do that if I wish.

I'm already prepared to compromise to achieve that requirement, since that's still less than I get out of my current car - 450-500 miles and only 5 minutes to fill up.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Fardap on March 14, 2021, 09:08:52 AM
What has to be remembered is that Tesla started off selling high end sports (Roadster 2008) and Luxury Sedam (Model S 2010), their first 'affordable mass market' car the Model 3 was produced from 2017 which was just four years ago.

There are another 8 years until the current 2030 deadline, something is likely to change be that better batteries/storage/range or a new technology so I am not sure it won't happen but probably not with the tech we currently know.

There was a point mooted that if all batteries were replaceable in minutes (power pack) then you would just pull up at a 'fuel' station and swap out a depleted battery for a fully charged one, range would be around 250 miles which I think would be the point to be aiming at for most people other than long distance lorries.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Mr Sprue on March 14, 2021, 09:09:03 AM
Given the hidden dangers that are under the bonnet, one being there is up to 600 volts running through those orange cables. If involved in a shunt there should be an automatic recording that sounds off like the B-9 robot from the 'Lost in Space' program in the sixties!

These cars are not exactly liked by our fire service when they are involved in road accidents either! If the battery is exposed to excessive heat, or the battery case gets damaged there is a high risk of an internal short circuit, which could cause Joule heating.

Lithium-ion batteries can store a huge amount of energy in a very small space, the sudden release of this electricity causes heat that you cannot get rid of easily because a chemical reaction takes place which generates more heat.  This then causes the chemical reaction to go even faster! known as a thermal runaway it can lead to ignition or even explosion!
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 13, 2021, 09:08:36 PM
I can recall dear old Clarkson debunking the myths about electric cars, not least that when the battery required replacing it was about £7000 at the time and, as he pointed out, by then the entire vehicle wouldn't be worth that.

Actually it is a myth that car batteries need replacing at all. Look at some of the stats from companies in the US that are using them as taxis. One of the cars mentioned has done 330,000 miles and still has 77% of its original battery capacity. Most ICE's will be completely worn out after 330,000 miles so arguing that you need expensive battery replacements just is not born out by experience.

Not to mention the fact that an electric vehicle will save you a huge amount in both fuel and maintenance costs over that time. Electric cars typically save 75% on the cost per mile compared to petrol cars. Maintenance savings are even bigger typically saving around 89% per year simply because EVs have far fewer moving parts.

This means that over the lifetime of a battery, you will have saved far more than the cost of the battery and EV price premium put together thanks to the lower running costs.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/23/500000-miles-in-a-tesla-whats-the-result/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/23/500000-miles-in-a-tesla-whats-the-result/)

Quote from: Newportnobby on March 13, 2021, 09:08:36 PMAnd then, of course...................

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/107/264-130321210501-107518145.jpeg)

Now you are just being provocative. Tar sands facilities look more like this.

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iwNKuPnD.x74/v2/1200x-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 09:51:01 AM
Quote from: Mr Sprue on March 14, 2021, 09:09:03 AM
Lithium-ion batteries can store a huge amount of energy in a very small space, the sudden release of this electricity causes heat that you cannot get rid of easily because a chemical reaction takes place which generates more heat.  This then causes the chemical reaction to go even faster! known as a thermal runaway it can lead to ignition or even explosion!

Just like what happens when fuel in a tank catches fire?
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: chrism on March 14, 2021, 10:12:00 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
Not to mention the fact that an electric vehicle will save you a huge amount in both fuel and maintenance costs over that time. Electric cars typically save 75% on the cost per mile compared to petrol cars.

Until Revenue & Customs work out how to replace the fuel duty that they'd no longer be receiving  :hmmm:
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 10:42:24 AM
Tax the electricity on dedicated chargers. Would still be cheaper than filling with petrol.

I have to agree with Karhedron here (and I'm a bit of a petrol head), there are a lot of nonsense reasons not to go to EVs, but few have substance.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Yet_Another on March 14, 2021, 10:59:29 AM
I'm with @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) - full scream Valenta. I don't know anything about the legislation around electric car design, I guess there are safety issues to be addresses around the batteries, but surely the range problem would be solved by plugging another battery in the boot?
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Newportnobby on March 14, 2021, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: chrism on March 14, 2021, 10:12:00 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 09:49:02 AM
Not to mention the fact that an electric vehicle will save you a huge amount in both fuel and maintenance costs over that time. Electric cars typically save 75% on the cost per mile compared to petrol cars.

Until Revenue & Customs work out how to replace the fuel duty that they'd no longer be receiving  :hmmm:

Exactly. No government can afford to lose the fuel duty income and are hardly likely to allow power companies to make all the profit on the extra electricity consumption nationwide so chances are the duty will transfer to electricity use and/or the remaining petrol/diesel consumers will be heavily punished tax wise for not moving to EVs.
I've heard no mention at all about motorcycles so wonder what will happen to those like me who have one. The only electric ones I've seen do just one lap (37¾ miles) of the Isle of Man TT course and, as far as I'm aware, no other development has/is taking place.
Mind you, having said I'm not likely to be using a car come 2030, I'm hardly likely to be swinging my leg over a 650cc Kawasaki (but we'll see)
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: PLD on March 14, 2021, 11:13:25 AM
Quote from: Yet_Another on March 14, 2021, 10:59:29 AM
but surely the range problem would be solved by plugging another battery in the boot?
Longer journeys for me frequently include a large/bulky load (e.g. a model railway layout!) If the boot is filled with batteries, either a roof box or trailer would be required for the load, increasing power consumption and negating the presence of the extra batteries...
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Mr Sprue on March 14, 2021, 01:21:57 PM
I suppose for the short term to extend the range for a car that is only powered by battery's, is to carry a Honda generator in the boot!  :D
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: guest311 on March 14, 2021, 01:30:47 PM
would that be
petrol
diesel
plug in hybrid
:smiley-laughing:
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 09:49:02 AM

Not to mention the fact that an electric vehicle will save you a huge amount in both fuel and maintenance costs over that time. Electric cars typically save 75% on the cost per mile compared to petrol cars. Maintenance savings are even bigger typically saving around 89% per year simply because EVs have far fewer moving parts.

This means that over the lifetime of a battery, you will have saved far more than the cost of the battery and EV price premium put together thanks to the lower running costs.


You are making a lot of assumptions claiming 'huge amounts will be saved. I will base my 'assumptions' on the Skoda Citigo as it's what I drive and I looked at the electric version when it was launched. First up is the purchase price which even for the lower spec of the 2 options was around £7k (85%) more than its petrol equivalent. Servicing was also very comparable. Still had to be done annually and still needed brakes, fluids, lights tires etc looking at as well as checking the high voltage components etc so only a few quid different.
Moving on to actually driving it sure, it's cheaper to top up with electricity, but you would have to do a considerable number of miles to cover the extra £7k paid for it. Indeed, I don't think you ever would especially if the government introduced new taxes to reclaim that lost on petrol. Added to that is poor range especially in the winter and the time taken to top up so the tick boxes in the pro column were very sparse.
Like I said earlier prices would need to seriously drop in line with petrol prices, infastructure would have to massively improve as would range. If I go for a drive I don't want the nagging doubt in the back of my mind of will I make it to the next public charging point before it ran flat.....
You mention how much you would save over the lifetime of the battery but how many people realistically keep a car that long or will people have to forgo the 3 year turnover many follow.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:08:21 PM
For those concerned about long distance journeys, how far do you drive before taking a break? I normally need take a break after about 2 hours of driving (140 miles). Even if your concentration is twice as good as mine, you will still need to stop for a break after around 280 miles.

A top-of-the-range Tesla has a range of 360 miles. That means you will need to stop before the car does. A high speed Tesla charger will recharge this car in about 45 minutes which is about the same amount of time you will need to have a coffee, a sandwich and a visit to the loo. I doubt many people drive for 300+ miles, stop for just 5 minutes to put petrol in the tank and then drive another 300 miles.

That means we have production cars and chargers available right now that meet the needs of even the longest distance drivers. The Tesla will get you from Aberdeen to Penzance with only one intermediate 45 minute recharge. Is there really anyone who needs more than that?

OK, the Tesla is currently a top-spec machine and those high-speed chargers can be in high demand at the moment. But the Tesla is not the most expensive EV on the market by any stretch. Look at how far EV technology has come in the last 5 years. I am pretty confident that 5 years time, that sort of performance will be standard rather than top-tier.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Quote from: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 01:52:21 PM
You are making a lot of assumptions claiming 'huge amounts will be saved. I will base my 'assumptions' on the Skoda Citigo as it's what I drive and I looked at the electric version when it was launched. First up is the purchase price which even for the lower spec of the 2 options was around £7k (85%) more than its petrol equivalent. Servicing was also very comparable. Still had to be done annually and still needed brakes, fluids, lights tires etc looking at as well as checking the high voltage components etc so only a few quid different.

It is not sundries that make up major costs. I have had to make 2 expensive gearbox repairs to our large car while we have owned it. There would be no such expense on a EV as they don't have gearboxes. There are on average 20 moving parts in an electric engine compared to 2000 in an ICE. That is an awful lot less to go wrong and a lot fewer part to experience wear.

Check out this article on a US taxi company that switched to EVs. They made big savings on maintenance as well as fuels costs. I am not making assumptions, I am looking at real-world examples.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/23/500000-miles-in-a-tesla-whats-the-result/

Quote from: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 01:52:21 PM
Moving on to actually driving it sure, it's cheaper to top up with electricity, but you would have to do a considerable number of miles to cover the extra £7k paid for it. Indeed, I don't think you ever would especially if the government introduced new taxes to reclaim that lost on petrol. Added to that is poor range especially in the winter and the time taken to top up so the tick boxes in the pro column were very sparse.

OK, let's assume a typical drive of 10,000 miles a year. Not accurate for everyone of course but that is the default annual mileage that most insurers start with. The Citigo is pretty frugal with a quoted 55mpg so that is 182 gallons per year costing around £900. Electricity to do the same mileage in the EV version will set you back £200-£250 so saving you around £700 per year. That means you will recoup the price difference between the ICE and EV versions in around 10 years of average driving.

Now in fact it is better than that because you are comparing list prices while the UK currently still have a £3000 govt grant for switching to an EV meaning that you will break even in 7 years.

Quote from: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 01:52:21 PM
Like I said earlier prices would need to seriously drop in line with petrol prices, infastructure would have to massively improve as would range. If I go for a drive I don't want the nagging doubt in the back of my mind of will I make it to the next public charging point before it ran flat.....

Prices are dropping. Estimates suggest that EVs will reach price parity with ICEs within the next 5 years. For the issue of range, read my post above (although I grant it is considering a tesla rather than a Citigo).

Quote from: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 01:52:21 PM
You mention how much you would save over the lifetime of the battery but how many people realistically keep a car that long or will people have to forgo the 3 year turnover many follow.

I have been driving for over 25 years and I have never kept a car for less than 8 years. If someone can afford to buy a new car every 3 years then they can absorb the current price difference between ICE and EV by stretching that a year or so. My current family car is 15 years old and my little runabout that I use for commuting is 12 years old.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM

It is not sundries that make up major costs. I have had to make 2 expensive gearbox repairs to our large car while we have owned it. There would be no such expense on a EV as they don't have gearboxes. There are on average 20 moving parts in an electric engine compared to 2000 in an ICE. That is an awful lot less to go wrong and a lot fewer part to experience wear.
And I have never had anything expensive go wrong in over 35 years of driving so irrelevant. Is there really less to go wrong? Most parts that need replacing are tires, brakes, fluids etc which will still need replacing at the same intervals on an electric car. You mention gearboxes, just wait until the battery goes wrong.

Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
OK, let's assume a typical drive of 10,000 miles a year. Not accurate for everyone of course but that is the default annual mileage that most insurers start with. The Citigo is pretty frugal with a quoted 55mpg so that is 182 gallons per year costing around £900. Electricity to do the same mileage in the EV version will set you back £200-£250 so saving you around £700 per year. That means you will recoup the price difference between the ICE and EV versions in around 10 years of average driving.

So, again, you're basing your assumptions on the government not levying a tax on electricity use for cars which is extremely unlikely to happen and that I am going to keep the car for 10 years. Just how many people actually do that so, again, irrelevant figures/comparison to justify an electric car.

Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Now in fact it is better than that because you are comparing list prices while the UK currently still have a £3000 govt grant for switching to an EV meaning that you will break even in 7 years.

No, I was looking at prices after the £3k govt grant which is the prices Skoda quote so, again, incorrect assumptions


Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Prices are dropping. Estimates suggest that EVs will reach price parity with ICEs within the next 5 years. For the issue of range, read my post above (although I grant it is considering a tesla rather than a Citigo).

So you are basing facts on estimates? Please stop using the irrelevant Tesla as your base for everything, it is irrelevant to most road users. When Skoda introduced the electric Citigo (also SEAT and VW) it wasn't a new car, it was an old car with just an engine change and a massive hike in price. No idea what prices are dropping unless you mean the Tesla.


Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
I have been driving for over 25 years and I have never kept a car for less than 8 years. If someone can afford to buy a new car every 3 years then they can absorb the current price difference between ICE and EV by stretching that a year or so. My current family car is 15 years old and my little runabout that I use for commuting is 12 years old.

So you aren't the average car owner then so you will probably be able to justify it but all your arguments are based on assumptions, incorrect info and a propensity to never change your car.

From your other post:
Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:08:21 PM
For those concerned about long distance journeys, how far do you drive before taking a break? I normally need take a break after about 2 hours of driving (140 miles). Even if your concentration is twice as good as mine, you will still need to stop for a break after around 280 miles.

A top-of-the-range Tesla has a range of 360 miles. That means you will need to stop before the car does. A high speed Tesla charger will recharge this car in about 45 minutes which is about the same amount of time you will need to have a coffee, a sandwich and a visit to the loo. I doubt many people drive for 300+ miles, stop for just 5 minutes to put petrol in the tank and then drive another 300 miles.

That means we have production cars and chargers available right now that meet the needs of even the longest distance drivers. The Tesla will get you from Aberdeen to Penzance with only one intermediate 45 minute recharge. Is there really anyone who needs more than that?

OK, the Tesla is currently a top-spec machine and those high-speed chargers can be in high demand at the moment. But the Tesla is not the most expensive EV on the market by any stretch. Look at how far EV technology has come in the last 5 years. I am pretty confident that 5 years time, that sort of performance will be standard rather than top-tier.

Yep, you should take a break when driving but I don't want to arrive at a service station which may or may not have food/toilet facilities and hope there is an available charging point. Like I mentioned earlier a couple of 'colleagues' parked and plugged in their Tesla's at the NEC and returned to them over 12 hours alter meaning no one could charge their cars in all that time.
By 2030 things may have well changed but they need to change dramatically. Electric cars are well out of the price range of most drivers and they are inconvenient especially for all those people that can't park their car outside their house to plug it in.

As things stand there is no way you will ever convince me that electric cars are viable unless things change dramatically and throwing incorrect facts around and basing an argument on a car out of reach of most people just doesn't wash, sorry.

Conversation over, bye.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 03:19:57 PM
Crikey. That escalated quickly. I don't see any issue with Karhedron's points. He's said he's using generalised examples, to flatly dismiss his points because they don't apply specifically to you seems flawed.

Ive had a few large-ish repair bills over the years, always on items an EV wouldn't have.

The Citigo is always going to be a slightly awkward example because it's a very cheap car. The VW ID 3 is similarly priced to a mid-range Golf.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: guest311 on March 14, 2021, 03:52:20 PM
possibly time for a time out on this,

before it becomes a case of handbags at dawn in the car park.

and that is from someone who is known for his 'why use a taser if you have a Sterling' attitude  >:D
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 04:01:27 PM
Quote from: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 03:19:57 PM
Crikey. That escalated quickly. I don't see any issue with Karhedron's points. He's said he's using generalised examples, to flatly dismiss his points because they don't apply specifically to you seems flawed.

Ive had a few large-ish repair bills over the years, always on items an EV wouldn't have.

The Citigo is always going to be a slightly awkward example because it's a very cheap car. The VW ID 3 is similarly priced to a mid-range Golf.

If someone wants to dissect a post of mine and try to disprove everything by using generalisations based on one very expensive car and a whole heap of assumptions as fact I will respond. As for flatly dismissing his points you obviously didn't notice a lot of his points were based around things specific to him (gearboxes, times car kept for etc) and my responses were in no way just limited to myself so flawed you say?
How is a Citigo being one of the most affordable electric cars qualify it as a slightly awkward example whilst a Tesla which most will never afford is fine to discuss? Surely it, along with its SEAT and VW counterparts, is far more relevant to the discussion rather than too cheap so dismiss it?

Electric cars will always be a hot topic for discussion as long as facts are used.

Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 04:53:35 PM
I didn't read it is as dissecting your post, and he gave general examples rather than opinion based, but I won't tell you how to feel.

Last expensive repair (relatively - £600) was the inlet manifold sensor. Prior was the clutch (different car). I'd suggest you're extremely unusual if, in 35 years, you've never had a major repair to any engine/gearbox components. Yes ok you still need fluids/brakes/tyres etc, but there's no too much that's eye wateringly expensive in there.

Don't get me wrong, like I say, I'm not clamouring to have an EV, but I didn't read anything unreasonable.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: stevewalker on March 14, 2021, 04:57:44 PM
Quote from: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 08:32:51 AM
This is the oft cited reason for not getting an electric car, but how many people really do lots of spontaneous 300 mile journeys in winter? I've done 300 mile journeys twice in the last 15 years. Neither were spontaneous. It feels like people just want an excuse.

That said, I did look at hybrids when I bought a new car, but honestly I wanted something a bit quicker than most of the standard models, not that I'll ever use the performance!

We have had two occasions of arriving home from work and finding a message that a relative has died and the funeral is the following morning - on the West coast of Ireland. Too late to get a flight that night and the earliest flight in the morning too late to pick up a hire car and cross Ireland. So had to drop the kids off at my parents', drive Manchester to Holyhead, Dublin to Sligo (with 15 minutes to spare), from church to graveyard, graveyard to hotel for family meal, hotel to Belfast and Cairnryan to Manchester and back to pick up the kids.

Over the years, I have had non-spontaneous trips from Manchester, via Nottingham and dover to Stuttgart, with no stops other than ferry, toilets, fuel and driver swaps - and the next day Stuttgart to Salzberg. Numerous trips from Manchester to one or other port and then well into Brittany. Manchester to the South of France, non-stop. Typically twice a year arriving home from work, hooking up the trailer and setting off from Manchester to Cairnryan (230 miles - once a year mid-winter, with 5 people and towing a trailer) , then across to the West coast of Ireland. Even those planned trips won't comfortably fit into ensuring a full charge after work, before setting off, needing another charge at the port, without losing time, then continuing the journey, in the countryside, with nowhere to charge if running low, then arriving without losing more time for a charge.

Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 05:29:19 PM
So you're the exception. That is not the normal use case.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 06:35:04 PM
Quote from: thebrighton on March 14, 2021, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on March 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
I have been driving for over 25 years and I have never kept a car for less than 8 years. If someone can afford to buy a new car every 3 years then they can absorb the current price difference between ICE and EV by stretching that a year or so. My current family car is 15 years old and my little runabout that I use for commuting is 12 years old.

So you aren't the average car owner then so you will probably be able to justify it but all your arguments are based on assumptions, incorrect info and a propensity to never change your car.

I disagree strongly here. Among my entire circle of friends and family, the only person I know who can afford a new car every 3 years is my cousin who works for a major investment bank. No one else could afford a new car every 3 years. The vast majority of people I know buy cars 2nd hand or ex-display and drive them for a long time.

I have a job with an above average salary but a new car would be a big stretch for me financially and getting one every 3 years would be completely out of the question.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: PLD on March 14, 2021, 07:04:39 PM
What proportion of drivers actually own their car outright these days? The growth of PCH plans probably accounts for the apparent increase in numbers who are changing their car every three years.
How the government manipulate that market through the tax system and how the leasing companies respond, could have a significant effect on the balance of demand, and that will in turn influence availability in the second hand market 3 years down the line when those cars go off lease...
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: guest311 on March 14, 2021, 07:17:26 PM
I remember talking to a member when I was on the AA who said he NEVER would buy a new car !

as soon as it is registered it's lost value...
you then have all the faff with the problems that come up with a new car ..

he changed his car every year, but bought a car that was one year old.

so didn't have the initial depreciation,
let someone else deal with all the niggles etc ,
still had warranty,
didn't have to MOT the thing,
and then got a good price when he sold it at two years old.

re leasing, why do that, I could never understand the logic.
you might as well get a rental for a year !
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: njee20 on March 14, 2021, 07:43:17 PM
After years of owning our cars outright I'm mildly ashamed to say that both me and mrs njee20 do have our current cars on finance. PCP in our case, so we at least have the option to buy them at the end, as opposed to an outright lease. Hers is a 4 year deal (brand new car), mine is 5 year (car was 6 months old with 1k miles). Hers is now 2 years old and we've started getting 'incentives' to switch to a brand new one again. I'm undecided what to do at the end of the finance period - whether to buy it, as well have a low mileage 4 year old car of known provenance, or whether to switch and start afresh. Ditto mine, actually.

I've switched cars every 3-4 years generally, but have always bought cars 3-5 years old (until this one). Like many people I've bought 'nicer' cars as I could afford them! That said, I can see why people do buy new cars even on a modest income, the payments on mrs njee20s are fairly small, it's 0% APR, and if you don't fancy the balloon payment you can just return the car and swap for a new one, continuing to pay a similar monthly amount each month and always have a car that's less than 4 years old.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: chrism on March 14, 2021, 07:58:59 PM
I "bought" my last car, a Merc A-class,  on PCP because I wanted to hang onto as much cash as I could in preparation for retiring and relocating.

Once I'd moved to South Cumbria my plan had been to get some form of 4WD as insurance against bad weather but when I looked into it, the most cost effective option was to buy a new Dacia Duster. Since I hadn't decided whether to keep both or to return one, nor decided which one, I "bought" the Duster on PCP too, thereby giving the option to easily return either of them.

Having driven the Duster for a few weeks I decided that it had won the contest and the Merc could go back. When I'd sold my flat I then paid off the contract on the Duster too so I do now own it outright.

Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: ntpntpntp on March 14, 2021, 08:36:02 PM
Having had a relative who was in car sales until very recently we would always buy new and take advantage of his available family member discounts, but we certainly don't change cars frequently - we run our cars until they need to be replaced. So the family cars are currently on 61, 62 and 65 plates.

The electric vehicle question is interesting.  I love my 61 Kia Sorrento, it's been great for the long trips and full loads like carting layouts to shows or drumkit and other band gear to gigs, and it's got some grunt when I want it.  I have been wondering what I'd consider in its place when the time comes. I've noticed the recent Kia adverts for hybrid Sorrentos so obviously will make time to have a poke and a test drive of one of those at some point, but I've not come to a conclusion whether plug-in or self-charge would be the better option. Getting on toward double the price of the old one though.  No rush though, as I say I'll most likely run the '61 plate until it dies.  Mind you, I've only done about 50 miles in it in the past year due to lockdowns and now working from home but that is of course far from the norm.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: lil chris on March 14, 2021, 08:50:27 PM
I usually buy cars that are one year old and still have factory warranty active. I buy them on PCP so I can just give them back. I would have a problem with a plug in car, I live straight on the street in a terrace where would I plug in so it would have to be a hybrid. Anyway thinking about it by the time this becomes law I might have given up driving anyway. Has soon as I become a bit dodo I will give up, I will miss the freedom I have had for years go here I want for example. The other thing is if you buy a petrol car whats it going to be worth when the legistation comes into force, nothing. So I can see the situation where they are going to be difficult to sell much like diesels are becoming now. I am afarid we live with no forward thinking from all the goverments in the world . For example we could have had a fantastic local rail/tram networks in this country, no need for cars, but they ripped them all up, thanks Dr beeching.
Title: Re: Electric Cars 2030 What Will Yours sound Like?
Post by: Mr Sprue on March 14, 2021, 09:03:00 PM
Quote from: class37025 on March 14, 2021, 01:30:47 PM
would that be
petrol
diesel
plug in hybrid
:smiley-laughing:

Why Petrol of course, have to be able to rely on something that wont be a let down!  :D