Hi all
Just been on the Graham Farish site to see if anything of interest was arriving soon and was quiet surprised by how small their range is these days. 9 basic model types no Panniers, no 3MT, no 4MT, tank or tender, not even listing their new 8F.
I wonder whats going on at Farish, almost looks like they are abandoning steam.
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on February 27, 2021, 08:42:40 AM
Hi all
Just been on the Graham Farish site to see if anything of interest was arriving soon and was quiet surprised by how small their range is these days. 9 basic model types no Panniers, no 3MT, no 4MT, tank or tender, not even listing their new 8F.
I wonder whats going on at Farish, almost looks like they are abandoning steam.
NGM
Ive said the same thing about dapol.
Perhaps their newer and younger customers are now buying more Diesel and Electric models, we do tend to model what we remember as kids, and many have never seen a steam locomotive, mind you I am in my 60's but living in Essex I also never saw a Steam Loco as a kid, they were all Diesels and Electric on my local lines.
Or could it be there is more profit in the more simple diesel, electric models with no complicated valve gear.
Could this be the end of an era for model steam locos :(
NGM
I'm in my 30's and modeling steam, I just find the engineering a lot more interesting and I think the complicated valve gear adds a lot more interest to the models. That said, I didn't travel that much by train as a kid, but we did visit the Great Central Railway quite often, especially for Santa Specials.
Mark
I think that too much is being read into this personally.
Bachmann already has the tooling for a wide range of steam locos, many with new coreless motor loco drives and it is inconceivable that they will not want to leverage more return from their investment.
The issue is that they need production slots to make them and these were already in short supply before the pandemic, and Covid-Safe measures needed to keep people safe in factories has since made matters much worse.
I actually see the almost immediate sell-through of three of the four 8F releases as a really healthy indicator of demand for steam locos, and I am sure it has not gone unnoticed by Bachmann.
For sure stocks are a bit thin at Barwell generally and the cupboard is almost bare as far as steam locos go, but given the current situation surely that reflects demand outstripping supply, and again, pent up demand will not have gone unnoticed.
What is coming through is logical, more 4Fs - so far there has been only one production run four or five years ago, the J39 same story, one production batch even longer ago, Fairburn ditto, N Class and 5MT also quite some years back and those now with sound and sound-ready upgrades.
Of other like the Ivatt 2MT there has been a fairly recent second production run, Jinties too and I think the 64xxs?
What I would be surprised to see more of is the earlier tender drive locos like 4MT Tender, Jubs, Scots and Black Fives. In each case there has already been more than one production run and by modern standards they are becoming dated, but given the new Stanier tender with the 8F who would want to rule out a brand new loco-drive Black Five?
So, my conclusion is different. Healthy demand still and the current position comes from difficulties with production and shipment. I absolutely do not see Bachmann giving up on steam in N, nor would it be in their interests to do so.
Roy
I think there has been a change to the website, and it's only showing stuff that's 'active' rather than the full range. There are only eight diesel classes showing on the website, with no 20s 24s or 25s, which would imply they're getting out of diesels, using the above logic.
Quote from: Roy L S on February 27, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
What I would be surprised to see more of is the earlier tender drive locos like 4MT Tender, Jubs, Scots and Black Fives. In each case there has already been more than one production run and by modern standards they are becoming dated, but given the new Stanier tender with the 8F who would want to rule out a brand new loco-drive Black Five?
Certainly one each of the above, if and when they do a rerun, as long as they don't all come to market the same week.
Rails are at present taking pre orders for the J39
Also off the topic but the Crab has not been released under Bachman's ownership
Mike H
Quote from: Roy L S on February 27, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
I think that too much is being read into this personally.
Excellent post from Roy and I totally agree.
What's more, Sonic took their first step in N with the 56xx and have stated on release of that loco they will announce their next steam model.
I have also often noted the Bachmann site doesn't show items they don't have yet some are still available at retailers. I don't have any worries about future models.
Quote from: Roy L S on February 27, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
I think that too much is being read into this personally.
So, my conclusion is different. Healthy demand still and the current position comes from difficulties with production and shipment. I absolutely do not see Bachmann giving up on steam in N, nor would it be in their interests to do so.
Precisely... the range of potential locos they have tooling available for (both Steam and Diesel) has never been bigger...
Admittedly, modern batch-production methods and supply line constrictions (global issues and priorities of the Parent Company) mean not all of those are immediately available off the shelf at every model shop, but nothing anywhere states or even implies that those 'missing' models will never again be produced...
Don't forget the recent SECR class C loco which I believe sold well, mostly as a rule 1 purchase.
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on February 27, 2021, 09:23:46 AM
Perhaps their newer and younger customers are now buying more Diesel and Electric models, we do tend to model what we remember as kids..........
Exactly! Anyone old enough to remember steam trains on the mainline will now be in their late fifties at least. For that reason I'm surprised that steam locos still make up as large a percentage of Farish/Dapol etc. ranges as they do.
Alec.
The Standard 5 is also undergoing the Next 18 treatment, the N class is due soon with Next 18 as well and speakers.
I just think they have pruned the models to what is coming rather than leave old models on the pages.
Alec commented
I'm surprised that steam locos still make up as large a percentage of Farish/Dapol etc. ranges as they do./i] I'm not. as far as we are concerned they and first generation diesels constitute the bulk of sales/demand. Sonic seem to agree.
I noticed a few weeks back that the stock held by retailers was really small, when I ordered some scenic stuff to find that they could only supply two stem locos and one was American. A similar stock level was available from others (this was just before the 8f was released) My nephews who are between 7 and 17 much prefer steam -they love connecting rods and valve gear. Even the likes of Rails don't have much actually in stock except perhaps second-hand.
I wonder if Bachman made the right decision to recreate new tooling for existing models rather than do say a Stanier tank rather than a third run of the 4MT. They did also do a rerun of the Farish crab .372-227 (42765) plus 42932 and an LMS version when they did new chassis models for the existing Farish bodies..
Quote from: honk843 on February 27, 2021, 02:50:11 PM
I wonder if Bachman made the right decision to recreate new tooling for existing models rather than do say a Stanier tank rather than a third run of the 4MT. They did also do a rerun of the Farish crab .372-227 (42765) plus 42932 and an LMS version when they did new chassis models for the existing Farish bodies..
I'm not sure how that makes a difference to the number of models available? One run of one model is still just one model on the shelves regardless of whether it's a new type or a rerun of an existing model...
I think they're discontinuing their tender drive models.
Farish are upgrading locos with Next 18 and sound capability. However the tender driven models will need a new loco drive coreless motor chassis, with speaker and Next 18 socket housed in the tender.
I don't know whether the loco/tender bodies of those tender drive models will need modifications to fit the new chassis.
Farish will promote new versions of the former tender drive models but there'll be a time lag of several years before they reappear in the range.
[/quote]I'm not sure how that makes a difference to the number of models available? One run of one model is still just one model on the shelves regardless of whether it's a new type or a rerun of an existing model...
[/quote]
Between 2004 and about 2012 I suppose Bachman re-released much of the former Graham Farish catalogue with a new chassis and at the same time produced new models such as the V2. We were spoilt by the shear volume of new models.
Since about 2012 they have continued to produce new models such as the C class which hopefully sold well but producing new model like the Standard class 4 tank and then repeating it with a newly tooled body seems to me to be expensive and unlikely to find enough buyers to justify the costs.
By TINGs 2018 thy told us demand for N gauge was so poor that they were reluctant to produce any new models. They told us figures which did not seem to justify that decision. So they decide people do not want steam outline anymore rather than look at their own policy.
With the upturn in sales - and hopefully new N gauge modellers - and difficulties in production the earlier decision to cut back new n gauge models is affecting availability
Quote from: gc4946 on February 27, 2021, 03:55:55 PM
I think they're discontinuing their tender drive models.
Farish are upgrading locos with Next 18 and sound capability. However the tender driven models will need a new loco drive coreless motor chassis, with speaker and Next 18 socket housed in the tender.
I don't know whether the loco/tender bodies of those tender drive models will need modifications to fit the new chassis.
Farish will promote new versions of the former tender drive models but there'll be a time lag of several years before they reappear in the range.
It seems likely that models will be upgraded over time, but possibly not all. For example it was said that the J39 only came into being because they could reuse the B1's tender-drive, and while I would be absolutely delighted with a loco-drive version I am not holding my breath.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: honk843 on February 27, 2021, 04:47:27 PM
Between 2004 and about 2012 I suppose Bachman re-released much of the former Graham Farish catalogue with a new chassis and at the same time produced new models such as the V2. We were spoilt by the shear volume of new models.
Since about 2012 they have continued to produce new models such as the C class which hopefully sold well but producing new model like the Standard class 4 tank and then repeating it with a newly tooled body seems to me to be expensive and unlikely to find enough buyers to justify the costs.
By TINGs 2018 thy told us demand for N gauge was so poor that they were reluctant to produce any new models. They told us figures which did not seem to justify that decision. So they decide people do not want steam outline anymore rather than look at their own policy.
With the upturn in sales - and hopefully new N gauge modellers - and difficulties in production the earlier decision to cut back new n gauge models is affecting availability
To clarify the first point, the initial products produced by Bachmann were almost all reintroductions of the old Poole Farish range, the only differences were essentially better tampo-printing and finer wheels. The first all new loco, the V2 had in fact already been under development before the takeover, and significantly reworked became the first brand new steam loco. There were other new tool models earlier on, the 66 being one example. The flurry of new tool models began around 2007 and came in at a phenomenal pace for a time, but that was never going to be sustained, it was to establish a range.
It was always said to be the plan to introduce new tool variants of some of the old favourites, such as the 4F 0-6-0 and 4MT Standard Tank, and I respectfully disagree that re-tooling them to modern standards was a bad plan. Comparing new to old is like comparing chalk and cheese, the new 4MT is exquisitely detailed, far more accurate and DCC ready, as with the Fairburn Tanks currently awaited, I am sure we will see more runs of the 4MT Tank, hopefully variants with the tablet-catcher they have tooled for.
In all my conversations with Bachmann people on their stands in recent years they have never said that sales of N were poor, these products make up a significant chunk of their portfolio and turnover. There has been growth, demand has been good, but they haven't been able to grow sales as fast as they would have hoped.
The arrival of the 8F is clear evidence that Bachmann do see a future in steam locos, as is the upgrade of other locos like the 5MT for easy sound conversion. All that we see on the Bachmann website is models that are either in stock or in the current pipeline, be they re-runs or announced new tool models. I am pretty confident that behind those there will be plans for both brand new and re-runs of further models.
Don't forget the Covid pandemic has had a serious impact on both manufacturing, supply chain and shipping, and on top of that Farish N models have to compete with others for production slots at the Kader factory. In the last six months Bachmann has had a big push on Thomas ranges both in OO and N, and I wouldn't mind betting that those have been a big priority. If you look at the OO Branchlines range you will see a similar issue to Farish (in proportion to their larger market possibly even worse) with more models in the pipeline than in stock!
I think we will see things improve as the pandemic eases, the lockdowns have rather ironically seen more people take up modelling at the exact same time as supply has become more difficult.
Regards
Roy
Hi all,
So my little take and I actually think that what I am about to say doesn't just effect Steam locos but their whole range....
1) Covid
As @Roy L S (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=242) points out this is having an impact with measures presumably and from my understanding been taken at factories which has reduced the work force available so the production cycle is taking longer meaning those slots which are limited and fought over are currently even more contested with the more profitable and less complexed models taking precedent (less complexed means less workers required and lets be honest diesels in this case require less work than a steam engine with all the intricate exposed valve gear).
2) Changing demand
As @N_GaugeModeller (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7874) suggests there could be a changing of the guard and diesels taking over from steam as the most sought after locos, but for that to swing so massively in such a short time I wouldn't say that's an issue in this case as it would generally creep in over time rather than numerous steam models be ditched in favour of diesels.
3) Upgrading models
Lets be honest no model design is perfect forever and with the advent of Next 18, Sound, etc many of their models need upgrading or in some cases a complete redesign, none of this is cheap let alone free so they will be waiting on funding been available (through the sales of already offered models) but also the space in the design offices which is where Farish could have tripped themselves up.
As has frequently been lamented Farish seem to be going through a consolidation phase trying to catch up with the backlog of previously announced models so while they are playing catch up with their own catalogue they are also having to update their large offering of models to keep up with the standards and innovations we have come to expect in an RTR model, put my Farish 66 next to my Dapol 68 and the detailing difference is stark!
Lets be honest since 2005 N gauge in terms of detailing and innovations have come on leaps and bounds compared to the 16 years prior to 2005 and keeping a catalogue of 100s of models up to the expected new standards as well as introducing new models is no easy feat.
4) Change of business strategy
As we have all seen Farish have change how they announce models coming to shops from an annual announcement list to every 3 months they will announce what is on the way which means instead of an annual waterfall of models we are been drip feed the same list but in 4 stages through the year.
Farish has always held its cards close to it's chest even at shows they are rather tight lipped compared to others, and this is just another way of tightening them lips some more, why you may ask well in 2014 we had Farish and Dapol, now we have to add Revolution and Sonic into the mix and unlike the old status quo where Farish and Dapol generally stuck to their patches the new boys have shaken the status quo up been willing to go at what may have been the traditional patches for Farish
While it may appear they have stopped production of a model all they are showing now is available models so that model you could be after and fear discontinued my actually be in the finishing stages of production and part of their next 3 month announcement and we have to find out if the next drip feed will come up good for the model you want.
(so far not so great for me Capaugh 60, Northern 319, TPE 350, how I wait with baited breath)
These are just my thoughts as I say it's not just effecting Steam but their whole product range and while it is annoying I can see why things are as they are now, but even if they did begin to quietly drop some models I am sure after a while others would take note...
I largely agree with acko22. The only difference is that I reckon the most likely log jam is the tool making in China. Kadar will have requests for new tooling from many places within their international organisation. As a business you must give priority to the projects that are most likely to give the best return on investment. With British N being small volume compared to almost any US based model or indeed British 00 I can see that it will be difficult for Bachmann Europe to get a slot in the toolroom for British N gauge products; there will always be something with better prospects for a return on investment. The other side of this coin is that there isn't much in the way of mainstream locos that haven't been covered in 00 (ref Rapido newsletter) so the law of diminishing returns must set in sometime. I have no idea how well the US locos are covered. I do know that Kadar have refurbished some of the Aristocraft G scale tooling ready for production. These will be much smaller volumes than British N but also a much higher profit margin per unit sold. It does at least prove that lower volume items can still get to the top of the tooling queue. It seems to me that once the larger volume items (US stuff and British 00) are tooled up to today's standards then maybe, just maybe we will see a few of the big gaps in N being filled over the next few years.